Rav Moshe Feinstein: Sitting next to women on buses

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  • #592891
    Ben Torah
    Participant

    Rav Moshe Feinstein: Sitting next to women on buses

    (Translation by R’ D. Eidensohn, author of Yad Moshe)

    #706400
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m shocked that Rav Moshe bolded the Assur in each case!

    He must have wanted to point out how it is really assur, and only a MO would be Makel 🙂

    (Just trying to make a point in a humorous fashion)

    #706402
    theprof1
    Participant

    Please explain what you are accomplishing with this? Those who now sit next to any woman know about this or don’t care. Those who do not will go on with their chumra shel kedusho. And you may actually cause people who until now were machmir, yo stop doing their chumra.

    You could also bring down Rav Moshe’s psak that you aren’t allowed to use a timer on shabbos to on or off your air conditioner. Do you listen to that too? Or only what you like of his psak halochos?

    #706404
    mamashtakah
    Member

    I’m missing the point. Are you saying it’s impossible for any man to sit next to a woman on a bus or subway and not have lustful thoughts? Are you saying that seating on every bus needs to be gender separated?

    #706406
    Helpful
    Member

    Rav Moshe has THREE seperate teshuvos strongly saying it is ASSUR to shake a woman’s hand.

    And the above teshuva is VERY CONDITIONAL — i.e. only if there are no other available seats. So Rav Moshe is clearly saying (like the current gedolim) that Mehadrin buses with seperate seating is much much better.

    #706407
    dd
    Member

    Helpful,

    You are reading something into the teshuva that is not there. R’ Moshe did not say that you should stand if there are no seats; R’ Moshe did not say to find a different way to work; R’ Moshe did not say to change your work hours to avoid the crowded train. He said that a man sitting next to a woman is only ossur for those who have a psychological problem.

    Thanks again to Ben Torah for posting the teshuva that clearly and unambiguously states that normal men with normal yetzer haras may sit next to women.

    #706409
    bpt
    Participant

    As much as I love a good kula, I was never able to find a loophole for shaking hands with women. And belive me I tried, but no where could I find any posek that gave a green light on this one. Not MO, not anyone.

    Sitting on a bus, even between two women, can be mitigated by holding a sefer (or like the Rebbes do when walking in the street, holding a cane). But to shake hands? Looks like this one’s a closed case.

    #706410
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    We don’t use timers on our air conditioners. I do sit next to men on the bus.

    I don’t always follow R’ Moshe. I follow my Rav though.

    #706411
    mosheemes2
    Member

    I’d post what Rav Moshe said about people translating his Teshuvos without his permission and why he felt that way, but ironically I would be over a Psak of Rav Moshe.

    #706412
    myfriend
    Member

    dd,

    Rav Moshe specifically conditioned his kula on, quote, “when there is no other place available”. And that is for anyone, even if he thinks he has no improper motives.

    Additionally, he did not characterize, as you did, that a man having lustful thoughts is a “psychological problem”. If that were the case most men in the world would be needing constant psychotherapy. That is a normal male thing, not a “psychological problem”. Rav Moshe, in he aforementioned teshuva tells how to deal with it.

    #706413
    Moq
    Member

    I was in Tehran recently as part of my shul’s Neturey Karta Solidarity mission with Laura Schlessinger, and I was a lot more comfortable on the buses.

    What R’ Moshe is saying is that men need to use their brains, and stay out of situations that are not healthy for them. I wouldn’t call them men with psycological problems. I would them men who know what to avoid and what not to. Each guy has to know his no go zone. Somethings are a no go zone for everyone, and if you think that it’s not, you’re fooling yourself, like, say , a club.

    However, a bus is a grey area. So that means use your brains.

    That’s all. SJS, think about it – you’d probably want your husband to avoid situation he personally finds difficult. And he would too.

    And you must the only person I know who listens to R’ Moshe about ACs/

    #706414
    bpt
    Participant

    “I follow my Rav though.”

    We had a similar situation, where we had 6 people ready to daven, and 4 stand ins. (something that is often done in BP)

    One of the 6 said, “I’m not davening, its a *beferush MB*.”

    I later related this to the rov, and he said, “true. But we don’t always pasken like the MB”

    EDITED

    #706415
    squeak
    Participant

    Moq- I can vouch for many people who do not use timers (myself not included).

    Anyway, I think that central a/c is different, and many people have that now instead of wall units.

    #706416
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Moq, absolutely I want my husband to avoid situations he finds difficult. He drives to work and works for a company that’s like 90% male 🙂

    Its more of a practical matter regarding our A/Cs. They are digital but don’t have built in timers. You can’t cycle them on and off. Its either on or off. So we leave them on when needed.

    #706417
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’d post what Rav Moshe said about people translating his Teshuvos without his permission and why he felt that way, but ironically I would be over a Psak of Rav Moshe.

    Did he mean an absolute ban on translating any portion of it? Or did he mean *publishing* a translation?

    I doubt he meant the former (which is what the OP did). If so, then I could never learn his sefer with my son, since he does not have the requisite Hebrew skills yet — and I would have to translate some of the passages for him as we learned it inside.

    Do you really think that’s what he meant?

    And, if so, does a person have the *right* to ban anyone from translating their works that they put out in the public domain*? I don’t think they do.

    The Wolf

    (* I don’t mean “public domain” in the copyright sense — I mean as in it’s available to the public — as opposed to private papers/diaries.)

    #706418
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Is there a point to this thread?

    #706419

    And, if so, does a person have the *right* to ban anyone from translating their works that they put out in the public domain*? I don’t think they do.

    The Wolf

    (* I don’t mean “public domain” in the copyright sense — I mean as in it’s available to the public — as opposed to private papers/diaries.)

    i didnt see anything about a ban in the words of mosheemes2. i never heard that R’Moshe,tz’l banned his words from being translated

    #706420
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i didnt see anything about a ban in the words of mosheemes2. i never heard that R’Moshe,tz’l banned his words from being translated

    Fair enough. I may the (il)logical leap from

    “I’d post what Rav Moshe said about people translating his Teshuvos without his permission and why he felt that way”

    to a ban.

    Nonetheless, for the sake of argument, let’s say it’s not a “ban” but a simple “I don’t want it done.” My question still applies. Does he mean he doesn’t want a translation published, or does he mean that he doesn’t want anyone to translate the words at all. And, if the latter, did he really mean that I shouldn’t learn it with my son — or even on my own, since I sometimes translate words to myself when learning by myself?

    The Wolf

    #706421

    And, if the latter, did he really mean that I shouldn’t learn it with my son — or even on my own, since I sometimes translate words to myself when learning by myself?

    of course neither one of us know what he said or meant. but i would presume that he at least meant that if you are going to learn his Psakim, by yourself or with your son, you should not modify your behavior without first asking a Posek how HE translates the words and interprets them and what he poskins you should do

    #706422
    mosheemes2
    Member

    I think, and this is why I was cryptic, (also I don’t have the cite on me for the Teshuva) he was opposed to people publicly disseminating his views, especially in summary, especially in other languages, when they may not have actually understood what he meant. I really don’t want to say more, because, in saying what I’m saying I am doing exactly what he said you shouldn’t do.

    #706424
    myfriend
    Member

    I think the issue with translating is discussed in

    Igros Moshe Y”D vol. III s.91

    Igros Moshe Y”D vol. IV s.38(1)

    #706425
    LBK
    Participant

    In what forum did R’ Eidensohn translate this tshuva from R’ Moshe? It wasn’t in the Yad Moshe, as the Yad Moshe is an index to the Igros Moshe, not a translation.

    #706427
    Helpful
    Member

    LBK – on his blog.

    #706428
    theprof1
    Participant

    Rav Moshe paskins that one may translate seforim for private use but not in a commercial fashion, that is to sell them. He said that once a particular piece of Torah has been said, it belongs to klal yisroel. With the exception of seforim which do have an intellectual property ownership to them. Translating in a blog isn’t ossur, but an English translation of Rav Moshe’s psak halocho in a published book sold to the public would be. So Wolf go ahead and learn with your son.

    #706429
    holy brother
    Participant

    The uz nidbiru (r binyomin zilbershtein zt”l) paskens that its better to sit next to a girl then behind her. cuz he brings a rayah that theres a din of “achoreiy isha” even by sitting.

    but for all those willing to deal with arayos issues head on , heres a little secret, the gemorah says that 2 specific amurayim are considerd tznuim legabey yichad and the mechaber paskens like that so anyone today acording to mechaber is considered prutzim and in a workplace with closed door wont help a feelow yid, even acording to the remah whos meykil r moshe says someone who watches tv is considered a parutz and duznt help for yichud, go figure how many ppl working with females are forgetting this. this is without adressing the real tzniyus issues goin on in workplaces. The amurayim had to deal with arayos somehow we got better????????????

    #706430
    charliehall
    Participant

    See Rabbi Y. H. Henkin’s essay in Hakirah, vol. 4, pp. 115-120. It is available online.

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