July 23, 2012 12:18 am at 12:18 am #887685
He is not the one who invited him. I do not know when the invitation was offered, accepted, and announced, but I didn’t know about it until a couple of days ago. You’re right, though, that there was lack of aforethought in inviting someone controversial.
I dont know this for sure and I have no evidance for this, But I am sure a list of possible speaker was thought about 6 mnonth or more ago. You dont plan a major event like this on the fly, You plan it properly. You also have to see if speakers can even attend or if they want to attend (IE many Charedi Rabbis wont leave E’Y” for any reason)
If a possible list of speakers was drawn up, and If the Vizitzher Rebbe wanted to see this list, I am sure if he asked, they would have let him see it. He could have known (Or maybe he even DID know) Months ago about the speakers.July 23, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #887687
Complete conjecture, for no benefit.July 23, 2012 1:43 am at 1:43 am #887688GetzelParticipant
For the record: The Byonar rebbi And Rav Shaul Alter will probably attend the Siyum.
zahavasdad i was just wondering aloud who chose the speakers?? any rabbonim involved????July 23, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #887689
I was talking to someone about this, and Rabbi Lau just can’t win. A lot of Dati L’umi/Chardals don’t like him because he’s Chareidi. And now apparently some boycott him because he’s Tzioni. I feel bad for him, honestly.July 23, 2012 1:52 am at 1:52 am #887690
Not complete conjecture, I know how to run an event properly, it takes months to plan.
You have to get the venue, you have to sell tickets, you have to get an agenda, you have to get entertainment (In this case speakers) you have to prepare the venue.
A successful event requires proper planning.
You try to run an event for 80,000 people, its not easy. especially with high ticket prices you need them to come home satisfied and want to come again.July 23, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #887691
They’re clearly doing things right. Every siyum is bigger than the previous one.July 23, 2012 2:38 am at 2:38 am #887692
Backtracking a bit:
I’m fairly sure that the defining element of sinas chinom is actually hating somebody; hence the term sinas chinom. Seeing as we have no evidence that any Rebbe bears R’ Lau any personal animosity, I don’t see how the term sinas chinom has any bearing here.
Also, just curious: If the Satmar/Vishnitzer Rebbes refusing to go to the Siyum Hashas if R’ Lau speaks constitutes sinas chinom, why isn’t publicly condemning their decision to do so also sinas chinom?July 23, 2012 2:49 am at 2:49 am #887693yehudayonaParticipant
Is there any evidence that this machlokes is true other than that questionable article posted elsewhere on this site? That quote about 80% of the attendees being MO is a red flag that the article is incorrect.July 23, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #887694
Great post.July 23, 2012 3:24 am at 3:24 am #887695
Why thank you.July 23, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #887696Feif UnParticipant
Disagreeing with someone is not sinas chinam. If it was, there would never have been a machlokes!
Despite their disagreements, many Rabbonim got along just fine, and respected each other. R’ Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik was respected by all the other gedolim of his time. R’ Kook was respected by the Chazon Ish, and he was also R’ Elyashiv’s mesader kiddushin!
The point is, you can say you disagree with someone in a proper manner, and still respect the person. When you decide to withdraw from a massive event which is supposed to show achdus because you disagree with the hashkafa of someone there, it is wrong.
I heard that in Israel, there will be many siyumim, one for each group. MO will have one, chareidim will have one, chassidim will have their own, etc. Why? Because they just can’t get along! I think this is terrible.
R’ Meir Shapiro said that daf yomi was intended to unify the different groups of Jews. Now it’s driving them apart instead.July 23, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #887697shlishiMember
R’ Kook was respected by the Chazon Ish
The Chazon Ish said that it is Assur to read R. Kook’s Hashkafa works although it is permitted to read his non-Hashkafic works. (Yalkut Daas Torah p.46)
Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik was respected by all the other gedolim of his time.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL, who would under no circumstances even walk into YU (even for a funeral), once commented about Rav Soloveitchik, “He is respnsible for the majority of Tumah in America.” Also from the same Rav Aharon, “He destroyed an entire generation of Jews.”
In the recently published “The Rav Thinking Aloud” by Rabbi David Holtzer, Rabbi YB Soloveichik tells – and this is on tape – about his meeting Rav Kook:
Someone asked Rabbi Soloveichik:
You felt the presence of greatness?
R. Soloveichik’s answer:
“I wouldn’t say greatness. Uniqueness. Greatness – if you understand by “greatness” intellectual greatness – no, I was not impressed by his scholastics.”
That entire paragraph (above is just the beginning) was met with such outrage by the religious Zionist community that in the next printing of the book, it was edited out. It’s not to be found.
They excised Rabbi Joseph B Soloveichik’s comments – as told to his Talmidim and recorded on tape (taped with permission, btw).July 23, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #887698
Feif Un: And it may very well be that Rav Lau is well respected personally by the Viznitzer Rebbe, but he can not stand together due to his position. Similar to someone not wanting to join with Rav Elyashiv ZT’L due to him having been a Zionist Dayan, without taking away from his Gadlus. I imagine had Rav Elyashiv spoken at a Siyum HaShas, there would be the same reaction.
That being said, it is a removal of Achdus from what could have been. Too bad.July 23, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #887699
Rav Aharon Kotler, in all fairness, created Lakewood to be the anti-college, and his shitta was that secular studies is mostly Assur. His definition of “Tumah” was not the same as what Rav Ruderman or Rav Moshe would have used.July 23, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #887700choppyParticipant
Rav Eliashev resigned from the rabbanut due to his disgust from it. He also refers to the Kenesset as a botei minus.July 23, 2012 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #887701ToiParticipant
GAW- but it does illustrate that disagreeing with one’s hashkafa, even with harsh-ish words, isnt sinas chinam. unless someone would have the gall to accuse R aharon ztl of sinas chinam. which would be pretty dumb.July 23, 2012 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #887702
Rav Eliashev resigned from the rabbanut due to his disgust from it. He also refers to the Kenesset as a botei minus.
Due to the Mamzerus issue, not due to “Zionism”.July 23, 2012 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #887703
GAW- but it does illustrate that disagreeing with one’s hashkafa, even with harsh-ish words, isnt sinas chinam. unless someone would have the gall to accuse R aharon ztl of sinas chinam. which would be pretty dumb.
Preaching to the choir. See The Milchamos talk about the Ba’al Hamor if you really want to see “Harsh words” (which I’m sure you already know).July 23, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #887704choppyParticipant
He called the Kenneset a botei minus due to zionism.July 23, 2012 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #887706
Choppy: I highly doubt that. I’m sure R’ Elyashiv knew basic Hebrew grammar.July 23, 2012 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #887707
Sam, he said it in a public shiur. I know someone who was there when he said it.July 23, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #887708
He called the Knesset botei minus, and yet has allowed Degel HaTorah to participate in it; allowed mosdos over which he had authority to take government funds; allowed those who followed him to use the roads, hospitals, electrical grids, water sources, and social services provided by the laws and administration of the beis minus. I simply don’t get it. I’ve tried to understand, but my limited intellect is not up to the task. Why is it OK to take from what one sees as Tomei? Can someone please explain?
Oh, and by the way – the very topical Gemoro in Gittin describing the story of Bar Kamtza as an explanation of the idea that the 2nd beis hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinom makes it abundantly clear that Bar Kamtzas actions were kindled at least in part by the silence of the Rabonim who were at the party that he was thrown out of. One could argue that since they didn’t even say anything, there was no lav and certainly no maaseh, so they didn’t “express” sinah. But their inaction was a root cause of that sinah. In practical terms, a comparison could possibly be made with this situation. It could be said that no sinah is being “expressed” by the Viznitzer, but the outcome could be seen as such.July 23, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #887709ToiParticipant
shaychis? it still is clear that its not sinas chinam. do you think the milchamos was oiver too?July 23, 2012 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #887710
my limited intellect is not up to the task.
If only you realized how true your words are (not meant as an insult – I say it about myself as well.)
Why is it OK to take from what one sees as Tomei? Can someone please explain?
Where would the money otherwise be spent?July 23, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #887711
DY, no offense taken. But I can’t believe your second point. Those are $ that belong to every taxpayer in Israel. It doesn’t matter where it would be spent. It’s their money.
And secondly, would you use the same reasoning to allow eating from a neveiloh? ‘Where would the meat otherwise be eaten?’ Since the poster I was challenging sees the knesset and the medinah as Tomei, and brings evidence that R Elyashiv did too, do you think they would agree with your rationale if it came to something else which is seen as “Tomei?”July 23, 2012 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #887712MiddlePathParticipant
I don’t think this is sinas chinam. I think it is simply misplaced priorities.
When the Aron was being brought back into Jewish hands, Dovid Hamelech danced without boundaries, without shame, without worrying about his image. He had true gladness in his heart. When we have an opportunity to give honor to G-d and His Torah, we should do so without worrying about how we look in other people’s eyes, without being concerned with our own comfort zones. Giving honor to G-d’s Torah, which is what this event is for, should take precedence over your own honor. It matters not what the particular cause of that discomfort may be.July 24, 2012 12:05 am at 12:05 am #887713
“The point is, you can say you disagree with someone in a proper manner, and still respect the person. When you decide to withdraw from a massive event which is supposed to show achdus because you disagree with the hashkafa of someone there, it is wrong.”
To quote from R’ Shwab ZTZ”L:
If you were to hold Zionism is completely and thoroughly assur, would it be such a stretch to apply this type of shitah to it as well? To not give Zionism any recognition whatsoever?
Now obviously, you do not hold this shitah, and neither does the majority of the Chassidish, Yeshivish, and certainly Dati Leumi communities. But according to the Satmar view of Zionism, nothing that they’re doing can be said to be “wrong”. (And either way, its certainly not sinas chinom.)
“When we have an opportunity to give honor to G-d and His Torah, we should do so without worrying about how we look in other people’s eyes, without being concerned with our own comfort zones. Giving honor to G-d’s Torah, which is what this event is for, should take precedence over your own honor.”
Please. This has absolutely nothing to with anybody’s honor or comfort zones. This is about Satmar/Vishnitz refusing, Hirsch-style, to give any recognition to a shitah they believe to be completely in the wrong.
“He called the Knesset botei minus, and yet has allowed Degel HaTorah to participate in it; allowed mosdos over which he had authority to take government funds; allowed those who followed him to use the roads, hospitals, electrical grids, water sources, and social services provided by the laws and administration of the beis minus. I simply don’t get it. I’ve tried to understand, but my limited intellect is not up to the task. Why is it OK to take from what one sees as Tomei? Can someone please explain?”
Why does one have to approve of everything a state does to use its infrastructure? The American government today recognizes same-gender marriages as being just as legitimate as any other one, and supports and even subsidies the systematic murder of unborn babies. Does this mean we shouldn’t use the roads, hospitals, electricity, etc?July 24, 2012 1:04 am at 1:04 am #887714
Ohr Chodesh: You completely missed my point (and that it was an irrelevant point and that I wasn’t so serious), which is to be entirely expected, I guess.July 24, 2012 1:30 am at 1:30 am #887715
And secondly, would you use the same reasoning to allow eating from a neveiloh?
No comparison, for obvious reasons based on the rules of logic.
You can’t compare issur with heter. If it were g’neivah, it would be assur. But it’s not. It’s a hashkafa issue, and an old machlokes between gedolim, going back decades. The Chazon Ish, the Neturai Karta (real one), Eidah Chareidis, Brisker Rov, Satmar Rov, etc. all weighed in on this, and due to my limited intellect, I will not take sides, other than for whatever is practical in my own life, for which I will follow the mehalech of my rebbeim. The gedolim used their massive, Torah honed intellect to decide these matters, and didn’t take these matters lightly; they “learned it up” with yiras shomayim andyegiah rabbah, as they would the most difficult sugyas in Sha”s.
You should be more humble, recognize your stature relative to the gedolim, and not c”v insinuate that those who follow the path of the Chazon Ish are disingenuous or hypocritical.
This is my last post, at least for a while, so everyone have a wonderful summer, and may we all meet soon in Yerushalayim Hab’nuyah bv”a.July 24, 2012 2:31 am at 2:31 am #887716ShrekMember
imagine of Moshiach comes tomorrow and he is a religious Zionist…July 24, 2012 3:00 am at 3:00 am #887717shlishiMember
Shrek: That’s as likely as Moshiach being a Conservative/Masorti Jew.July 24, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #887718GetzelParticipant
“imagine of Moshiach comes tomorrow and he is a religious Zionist”
do the Zionist all believe that we need Moshiach or the fact that we are already occupying eretz Yisroel is Enough??July 24, 2012 3:29 am at 3:29 am #887719
And I guess we see where Shlishi stands on a whole community of Halachah-observant Jews. They’re no different than Conservative in his eyes. *sigh*July 24, 2012 5:33 am at 5:33 am #887720MDGParticipant
The first Temple was destroyed (partially) because of idol worship, which is just like kefira. The second was destroyed because of sinas chinam. Considering that the second golus is much longer and more bloody, we see that sinas chinam is much worse.
The Gemara in Yevamos (62b) says that the talmidim of R’ Akiva died because they were not noheig honor one to another. It does not say that they felt disrespect, rather that they did not act in ways of respect. Having respect, while not showing it, is not enough.July 24, 2012 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #887721Feif UnParticipant
getzel1: Religious Zionists believe that we still need Mashiach. We also believe that having the state of Israel is the beginning stages of our redemption.
My Rav spoke this past Shabbos about it. He said that even in Israel, we need to remember that we are still in galus.July 24, 2012 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #887722
So why do we constantly see zionists saying, including repeatedly posting on this very forum, urging everyone to “leave golus and move to Israel”? In that language.July 24, 2012 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #887723
Toi: Preaching to the Choir means that I agreed with you already and am not the one that you need to convince.July 24, 2012 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #887724
Ohr Chodesh: Maybe the point is that Golus is clearer and more potent outside of Eretz Yisrael. In Eretz Yisrael it’s stilla spiritual Galus. But outside there is both a physical and spiritual one. Why not fix as much of that as possible? I think that’s the point of those types of statements.July 24, 2012 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #887725optimusprimeMember
“Rav Aharon Kotler ZTL, who would under no circumstances even walk into YU (even for a funeral), once commented about Rav Soloveitchik, “He is respnsible for the majority of Tumah in America.” Also from the same Rav Aharon, “He destroyed an entire generation of Jews.”
Dr. Marvin Schick disagrees with your insinuation. On his blog he wrote:
[R. Soloveitchik]July 24, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #887726
Sam: Israel is in the same physical golus as Europe and America is.July 24, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #887727
Ohr Chodesh: That’s just not true. The Mitzvos Hat’luyos Ba’aretz are Shayach there. Al Pi Kaballah there are many Ma’alos in Eretz Yisrael because it has more Kedushah and even Al Pi Nigleh we have concepts like Avira Machkima. There are many very good reasons to live in Eretz Yisrael (especially because according to almost all Shittos there is at least some sort of Mitzvah in it) when it is easier than it has ever been to move there since Bayis Sheni.July 24, 2012 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #887728
Sure it has maailos. But it is very much in “golus” just as much as anywhere else.July 24, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #887729
Ohr Chodesh: That’s just a semantics game then. You can play that however you want. It’s clear what I meant when I said physical as opposed to spiritual Galus though.July 24, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #887730a maminParticipant
Daas Yochid: Your input will be missed!July 24, 2012 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #887731147Participant
Now we are within 10 days, I am perusing & studying the 10 day weather forecast. Currently, looking good for next week, 81F on Wed & 86F on Thurs both days just 20% chance passing rain which ordinarily means no rain.
I think Rav Lau’s problem is that he is booked to fly to Israel on Thursday, so could not make a commitment for speaking in case Siyum is deferred to Thursday.
Now that this does not appear to be the case, we should IY’H eagerly anticipate his sermon.July 24, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #887732
DY, while I will endeavor to be more humble, unfortunately many people use the idea that one is challenging the gedolim as a simple “sha shtil” weapon in an argument, or as a way to deflect a new circumstance or a pressing issue that has not been addressed, or fully addressed.
“You should be more humble, recognize your stature relative to the gedolim, and not c”v insinuate that those who follow the path of the Chazon Ish are disingenuous or hypocritical.”
I am not insinuating, and I doubt that those who take without giving are following the derech of the chazon ish. I am saying that it is hypocritical to sit in the knesset while condemning it as an institution, it is hypocritical to take government subsidies on an institutional or personal level while not only criticizing the government and deriding those who elected it, but denying it the right to have established itself in the first place. It is hypocritical to use the infrastructure, water, energy, roads, social services, hospitals, without either supporting such things through taxes or through national service of some kind.
I have other issues with Neturei Karta, such as their palling around with holocaust deniers and modern day hamans, but at least they make a point of not taking anything from a government they don’t recognize (and even they aren’t perfect about it. They use roads, streetlights, and other infrastructure that they don’t support.)
Maybe you have a heter for hypocrisy. I don’t know. OK, that’s in your cheshbon, not mine.July 24, 2012 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #887733
Yichusdik: They are not taking without giving. They are giving Limud Torah. The highest form of giving. It’s the non-Torah learners who are not giving sufficiently.July 24, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #887734
Serisouly what is the Plan for the Siyum if it Rains?July 24, 2012 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #887735
OC, I will remind you of the Rashi on Moshe’s brocho for Zevulun and Yissochor.
So, basically, you are contradicting Rashi. And people criticize me for disagreeing with gedolim. Seriously.July 24, 2012 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #887736
Yichusdik: The Reform also are good at twisting a Rashi into meaning something they wanted it to mean. Krum.
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