August 17, 2017 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1341099popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Boo the RCA falling for the fake-news claptrap.
Only an idiot could read Trump’s statement as suggesting an overall moral equivalency between Nazis and violent left-wingers (although I’m not convinced they aren’t morally equivalent).
It is obvious that Trump was talking to last weekend’s incident, in which a group of Nazis and a group of violent lefties gathered in a U.S. city in order to fight each other, with bats, clubs, pepper spray, and bottles of chemicals on both sides. (Both sides were also armed, but not a single shot was fired, because their fight apparently has rules.)
Both sides were equally wrong in this case. We do not tolerate street battles.
The fact that one side were Nazis is not really relevant–it would be just as bad if one side were Yankee fans and one side were Red Sox fans.
But the RCA never misses an opportunity to stick its foot in its mouth and distance its friends.August 17, 2017 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1341219
The RCA are a bunch of wannabes who look for any opportunity to issue a press release to remind people they exist.
Very well said, popa, about the Charlotte situation.August 17, 2017 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1341255MammeleParticipant
PBA: I find it very relevant that one side wants to kill me more than the other side does. So I wouldn’t make friends with either side, but since the one that actually murdered someone was from among the neo-nazis, there’s no white-washing this.
Blood and Soil etc. is not what I want to hear chanted in the US, and I don’t think anybody here will argue that Hitler would have been this successful if not for his oratory skills. So free (inflammatory) speech that leads to mowing people down should scare us immensely. The fact that they’re armed doesn’t bode well either.
So of course street fights are wrong (and probably strengthening the White supremacists cause) but we can’t ignore their hateful message either, and pretend all is happy-dandy or that it compares to 2 opposing baseball teams fighting.August 17, 2017 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1341264
“The RCA Are Outta Control, And Do NOT Speak For Me”
The only proof you could bring to this is the RCA’s statement against Nazis??
PBA, your hiatus has made you lose your touch.
#ShudderShudderAugust 17, 2017 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1341272ubiquitinParticipant
Two statments you made are without question false (the rest of it was false too, but I suppose you can quibble)
“Both sides were equally wrong in this case. ”
One side drove a car into a crowd of the other and killed someone. They are not equaly wrong. Yes beating is bad, MAce is bad pepper spray is bad but murder is worse.
“The fact that one side were Nazis is not really relevant–it would be just as bad if one side were Yankee fans and one side were Red Sox fans.”
IT is relevent. IF we were dealing with Yankee and Red Sox fans then saying that both sides had some “nice guys” would be true. and we can point out that while it got out of hand and both sides had soem bad people both also had good people.
When one side is Nazis, there is no such thing as a “nice Neo-Nazi”August 17, 2017 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1341316
The Antifa/Black Lives Matter/Extreme Left-Wing have killed multiple police officers and other innocents. They are far more dangerous, far bigger and far more respected and accepted by the Democrats and mainstream media, despite their virulent Anti-Semitism, than the tiny marginal nutcases of white supremacists/neo-nazi/KKK goons who no one in the media or political class kowtow to.August 17, 2017 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1341317
The President did not say any of the white supremacists/Neo-Nazis were nice guys. He said that within the rally there were NON-white supremacists/NON-NN that are nice guys and were there to only protest the removal of the monument.August 17, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1341337
a group of Nazis and a group of violent lefties gathered in a U.S. city in order to fight each other, with bats, clubs, pepper spray, and bottles of chemicals on both sides… Both sides were equally wrong in this case.
And both sides carried out vehicular terrorist attacks against each other, resulting in bloodied bodies from both sides strewn about the street. Also, both side started the conflict, and were opposing equally apprehensible things (Confedrate statues being taken down, vs the rise of the Nazis and the KKK).
But this should come as no surprise – moral relativism dictates that both sides are always responsible. Both the Nazis and the Americans bombed civilian cities during WWII. Both the Israelis and the Palestinian kill people.
Who are we to judge?
When one side is Nazis, there is no such thing as a “nice Neo-Nazi”
Stop being so judgemental, you idiot! Trump has decried that there are nice Nazis, and if you deny it it’s only because you have your DemonCrat head in the FakeMedia sand!August 17, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1341342smerelParticipant
Without going into the specifics of this case we are in Golus. You don’t publicly pick a fight with the president of the United States over something that doesn’t directly pertain to the Jewish community. Even then you have to be very careful.
He has enough people criticizing him over this. No need for the RCA to chime in.August 17, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1341351
“What Trump is missing here is uniqueness of white supremacism, of Nazism, of the KKK. Yes, there were bad guys on both sides. That’s not the point. This was instigated… over a Nazi rally. And the only killing here occurred by one of the pro-Nazi, pro-KKK people.”
– Charle KrauthammerAugust 17, 2017 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1341414
What the President stated was that the rally was organized by and contained participants who are NOT NN/KKK/WS but are Confederate statues supporters. And that the idiots from the KKK/NN, who the President condemned (not that he has to condemn every idiot in america who protests) latched unto the pro-Confederate statue rally.August 17, 2017 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1341412
It is a perverted lie peddled by the media that some have brainlessly eaten up and swallowed that the President praised WS/NN/KKK as being nice people. The President did not say any of the white supremacists/Neo-Nazis were nice guys. He said that within the rally there were NON-white supremacists/NON-NN that are nice guys and were there to only protest the removal of the monument. Whether he is factually correct or not (and I believe he was factually correct on this point), he certainly was not referring the white supremacists as being nice.August 17, 2017 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1341425
This is just like the last time the media and their Democrats accused the President, with his Jewish son-ln-law and grandchildren, of being anti-semites when they blamed the threats against the many JCCs as being his fault.
Until it all turned out to be an Israeli kid and an African-American Obama/Hillary supporter.August 17, 2017 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1341441
If there is a Neo-Nazi/KKK rally that turns violent, we do not condemn “violence on both sides”. That’s about as ridiculous as condemning violence on both sides of WWII, or violence on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let’s not pretend that there is some sort of equivalence between those fighting for evil and those fighting against it.August 17, 2017 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1341421ubiquitinParticipant
“The Antifa/Black Lives Matter/Extreme Left-Wing have killed multiple police officers and other innocents.”
“He said that within the rally there were NON-white supremacists/NON-NN that are nice guys and were there to only protest the removal of the monument.”
If you are along side Neo nazis you are not a “fine guy” period. Even if it is a rally in support of pizza. IF it is a neo-nazi rally supporting pizza, “fine guys” arent found there.
And this was a “unite the right ” organized by and for neo-nazis it wasnt a civil war history buff rally. PEople didint drive hundreds of miles out of love for southern heritage. You are deluding yourself and misrepresenting what this rally was.August 17, 2017 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1341424dovrosenbaumParticipant
As a New Yorker, my experience is that these skinheads are probably marginal. I don’t see them attacking Jews or causing violence on a daily basis. I do see blacks and Latinos doing this, though. I quote from the Washington Post: ADL surveys show that “approximately 12 percent of Americans hold deeply entrenched anti-Semitic views.” However, over 30% of African Americans and Latinos hold such views. Given that they are almost 30% of the population, this suggests that of the 12% of Americans who hold deeply entrenched anti-Semitic views, 9% or so are African Americans or Latinos. This means, in turn, of the 70% or so of the population that is not African American or Latino, only 3% hold deeply entrenched anti-Semitic views. Put another way, less than 5% of whites, Asians, and “others” (including Native Americans) combined hold deeply entrenched anti-Semitic views, compared to over 30% of African Americans and Latinos–or at least that’s the difference in percentages of those willing to express anti-Semitic attitudes to pollsters. Regardless, it seems odd given these numbers that Jews seem especially concerned about mostly phantom anti-Semitism emanating from white evangelical Christians, while being less concerned about anti-Semitism in core Democratic constituencies.
Jews who live in areas like Crown Heights, Williamsburg, some areas of Flatbush, etc. deal with abuse on a daily basis from blacks, and we can’t forget that Black Lives Matter is anti Israel and pro-BDS, and that civil rights activists including Stokely Carmichael and Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Andrew Young, Thomas Lopez Pierre, Nation of Islam, National Action Network, Leonard Jeffries, etc. all hate us deeply.
Not that I’m discounting the danger of these Nazis, but the other side hates us as much.
The concentration camps and the gulags both sought to kill us, and we won.August 17, 2017 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1341426
Joseph, it is not true that the far left has killed more than the far right. A few police officers (such as in Dallas and Baton Rouge) have been killed by people influenced by the more extreme elements of Black Lives Matter. But other than that, there have been no deaths from left wing radicals since the Unabomber in the 1990s. The last time an anarchist killed somebody was decades ago.
By contrast, far-right radicals (sovereign citizens, neo-Nazis, militant pro-lifers) have killed dozens of people since 9/11. (Don’t forget the OKC bombing as well.) You can find lists of these killings on many websites, including the ADL. Examples include Frazier Miller (a white supremacist who shot people at a JCC), Dylan Roof (a white supremacist who killed 9 black people to try to start a race war and bring fellow white supremacists to power), and Wade Michael Page (a white supremacist who killed 6 Sikhs.) Sovereign citizens (anti-government extremists fueled by bizarre conspiracy theories about the history of American law) have killed a number of police officers in recent years, motivated by their radical anti-government ideology.
It’s kind of unfair to call them far-right, because they have almost nothing in common ideological with mainstream conservatives, or even the far right of the Republican party (deporting illegal immigrants is a lot different than killing them all.) But they’re called that for the sake of convenience, because they have some similar ideas (being against some immigration), but simply more extreme. Mainstream conservatives shouldn’t rush to defend far-right extremists, as if they’re somehow on the same side.August 17, 2017 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1341434
“And that the idiots from the KKK/NN, who the President condemned (not that he has to condemn every idiot in america who protests) latched unto the pro-Confederate statue rally.”
Joseph, this is wrong. You and the President can’t just make up your own facts. The whole rally was organized solely by white supremacists from the very beginning. There is no evidence of “fine people” being there who were not racist but were simply opposed to taking down historical monuments.
Look it up and you will see.August 17, 2017 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1341501
yytz, you’re incorrect. The “alt right” has always been people OUTSIDE of the KKK/NN/WS nutcases. And the rally was alt right.August 17, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1341488funnyboneParticipant
Standing up to neo-nazis should be commended. While I like trump, I think he should have denigrated the nazis. The question woukd be if the left woukd drive the car….August 17, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1341489
The KKK/NN are marginal nutcases, extremely few in number and with zero mainstream support. The left-wing Anti-Semites are far more dangerous, far more numerous and with lots of mainstream Democrat support.August 17, 2017 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1341490DovidBTParticipant
For an interesting perspective on the Charlottesville incident, do a web search for the article “Charlottesville never had to happen — How craven local politicians led our nation into tragedy” by Arthur Herman, a Charlottesville resident and historian. I first saw the article at foxnews DOT com.August 17, 2017 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1341538
Joseph, you are completely wrong. First, the alt-right is made of various groups, many of which are explicitly white supremacist. Second, the rally was organized by white supremacists (both KKK and alt-right “white nationalist” groups.) Look at the wikipedia page. Tons of neo-Nazi groups were involved in organizing the event. The main organizer, Jason Kessler, identifies as a white nationalist. The official poster for the event is full of Nazi imagery.August 17, 2017 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1341555
yytz, you’re dead wrong. The white supremacists, the KKK and the Neo-Nazis are all many decades old and none of them are part of the alt right. None of them, at all.
Stop believing everything the liberals put in Wikipedia.
There are more than a few secular Jews who are members of the alt right.August 18, 2017 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1341608Avi KParticipant
One side are neveilot and the other are tereifot. The reds are terrorizing Jews on campuses and banning them from rallies and the fascists are are spreading antisemitism on websites and social media. A pox on both their houses.August 18, 2017 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1341606GadolhadorahParticipant
There were Yekeshe appologists for Hitler, Y’S, literally up to the 11th hour…..I can imagine a resident troll on some frum webite in the late 1930s (yes, I know Al Gore had not yet invented the internet) telling his coffee room chevrah that the Communists were a much greater threat.August 18, 2017 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1341650HealthParticipant
yytz -“A few police officers (such as in Dallas and Baton Rouge) have been killed by people influenced by the more extreme elements of Black Lives Matter. ”
The left wing are much more dangerous, if you believe in the Torah!
“Without the gov. everyone would destroy each other” Avos.
The radical left wing has no respect or fear of gov. That’s why the RCA or any Jew shouldn’t criticize Pres. Trump.
We all need Gov.!August 18, 2017 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1341687
Joseph, the alt-right is a rebranding of white supremacism. The term was invented by Richard Spencer, who identifies as a white nationalist (and wants a Jew-free homeland for whites only in America.) At first, the term was used in different ways (when Bannon referred to Breitbart as a platform for the alt-right he may not have meant white supremacists). There are some non-white supremacists among the alt-right, such as the neo-fascist group the Proud Boys. But in general, the term is now used to refer to right-wing extremist groups, either explicitly racist or anti-democratic pro-fascist.
Regardless, look at non-wikipedia sources and you’ll see the same thing — the individuals and groups who organized the Unite the Right rally were all racists — whether they are new-style rebranded “white nationalists” or old-style neo-Nazis or KKK. The point of the rally was to unite the different extremist groups.August 18, 2017 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1341688
Health, certainly, anarchism and vigilantism are against the Torah. We need government, and we should criticize lawbreaking and ideologies that encourage it.
But far-right radicals such as neo-Nazis are very violent too, and they actually want us all dead, which is kind of important, because ideas have consequences, and at least sometimes people act on them. They believe in government, but they want to get in power and use it to kill and oppress everyone else. There’s no reason in the world why a frum Jew should defend these people or minimize the threat they pose.
I don’t think Trump is actually a white supremacist, or means to help them, but he is, by (against all available evidence) claiming that the protest was fine moderate people, when in fact it was organized solely by white supremacist groups. He is helping white supremacist groups look more mainstream. For this reason, they are optimistic and overjoyed, and not unreasonably, see a bright future for their murderous ideas.
The mainstream media is also helping them, and has been since the campaign, by giving white supremacists more attention than they deserve.
We should stand with reasonable conservatives like Cruz, Rubio, Shapiro and others (such as the staff of National Revicew) who have the moral clarity to criticize Trump when appropriate and condemn racist groups without equivocation.
It doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah not to criticize the government. In fact, we are told not to get too close to the government, because they only have their own selfish interests in mind and won’t stand by us in our time of need.August 18, 2017 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1341699
Anyone who defends the president in this specific case is crazy. Any Jew that defends Trump on this case is even crazier!! You need to watch the 22 minute vice news video to get an inside look what these Neo Nazis are.
The RCA is 100% correct!August 18, 2017 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1341708
To be fair now that I see that Agudah and BMG have come out against trump in this case you should change the title of this post to include these organizations too. It’s not just RCA. It’s all organizations.August 18, 2017 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1341706
Joseph and Popa, Are you going to call out BMG also??… In the APP.com today
LAKEWOOD – Leadership of the township’s large Orthodox Jewish population – which was all-in for Donald Trump in last year’s election – say they want the president to take a stronger stand against the white supremacist and neo-Nazi groups that gathered in Charlottesville, Virginia, for the deadly “Unite the Right” rally.
“Groups marching with swastikas and assault rifles, protected by the very Constitution they seek to destroy, are not defenders of freedom – they are not America,” Rabbi Aaron Kotler and Moshe Zev Weisberg said in a joint statement Thursday, addressing Trump’s defense of the hate groups.
“Now is the time for us all to rise, as a united republic, and to say to each other, once again, that we are one nation where all are equal, with liberty and justice for all,” they said………………..August 18, 2017 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1341754
The BMG statement is far different about the President than the RCA statement.August 18, 2017 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1341811HealthParticipant
yytz -“It doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah not to criticize the government”
In this case it does – it is called Kofey Tov!
The liberal posters here have no problem condeming Trump because he spoke the truth!
How does anyone know that every single demonstrator has Nazi views?
I believe Trump is correct – many are against removal of History.
The Commie libs in this country have resorted to anything possible to destroy Trump!
Namely – refugees, Russia, & now Charlottsville.
He wants to make America great again, but they won’t let him.
All the libs want to do is to destroy this Country.
Did their Idol Obama do anything positive for this nation?!?
How about Race relations? How about Terror attacks?
The list goes on and on!August 18, 2017 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1342644Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
There’s a time and place for everything. I think he should have exclusively rebuked the Neo Nazis in this case, and we all know I’m not one to criticize Trump frivolously.
We had a president for 8 years who never criticized Islamic terrorism or Black domestic terrorism. It would still be easy to find clips of Kerry saying there’s a certain “rationale” to the Islamic terrorist (not that he would ever call them Islamic terrorists). We need someone to criticize leftist extremism harshly and consistently, but in the wake of a Neo Nazi murdering people is not the time to do it. Having said that, I don’t know that the killer was known to be from that side when Trump made his statement.
As for the RCA, yeah, whatever. When was the last time they ever said anything that wasn’t utterly moronic and out of line?
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