January 2, 2011 10:32 am at 10:32 am #593889
Does reading “Fairy Tale” books to our children affect them in any way?January 2, 2011 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1088556
yes if they are jewish fairy tales that demonize goyim , then they will feel like the goyim are completly beneath us and are always out to get us that will affect them negativelyJanuary 2, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1088557
If it is goyisha fairy tales, very negatively will the child be affected.
If they are jewish fairy tales that demonize goyim , then they will feel like the goyim are completly beneath us and are always out to get us that will affect them positively, and let them know not to mingle with such people.January 2, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1088558
People do it, and it’s fun. Obviously, like everything else, it has an affect. On the one hand, they often broaden the imagination. On the other hand, an overdose causes them not to believe any stories of Gedolim, either.January 2, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1088559
i agree with ruffruff. hearing these stories deffinetly broadens a childs imagination which helps a child develope skills that will help him make new friends an get through life successfullyJanuary 2, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1088560
you crack me up TMB
you’re always (constantly) far far extreme-right wing
[see tv’s and come to think of it see any thread]
it’s hilarious sometimes (hope you don’t mind)January 2, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1088561
Would hearing “Little Red Riding Hood” or “Jack and the Beanstork” or the “Three Little Pigs” broaden a childs imagination which will help a child develope skills that will help him make new friends and get through life successfully!!!!January 2, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1088562
Me and my wife heard a tape from R’ Shimshon Pincus saying that goyishe stories were bad. Specifically he used the example of Goldie Locks and the Three Bears.January 2, 2011 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1088563
well reading him jack and the ‘beanstork’ might get his imagination going indeed (about some mutated plant-bird)January 2, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1088564
Reading fairy tales that are labeled as fairy tales, as long as the specific content is unobjectionable, seems OK. What distresses me is to see Midrashim and Aggadot taught / read to young children who cannot yet understand the point of the Midrash – which is usually implied or a matter of hashkafah. Midrashim are not cute stories which are even better the less logical or realistic they are.
When midrashim that are “non-realistic” in the daily world are taught to small children as literal happenings, this can create serious problems when the child grows older. He/she feels a demand to believe literally something which is meant on a symbolic level. The result is that the child starts believing the midrash is “just a bunch of fairy tales” which they don’t dare contradict in front of the rebbe/parent. This attitude can then spread to the rest of Torah observance and hashkafah. I’ve seen children (and some grown-ups) struggling with this very issue.
There waw a letter to the old Jewish Observer asking about the Harry Potter books, and the reply was that yes, it’s dangerous, because our children could transfer the idea of fantastic fiction to our midrashim!
Mirashim are not entertainment. They should not be read to children as such. The definitive book on midrashim is “The Juggler and the King” by R’ Aharon Feldman, shlilta, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Israel. He expands on the dictum of the GRA that aggadata are not to be taken literally. Chazal didn’t waste their time telling cute stories. They were leaving us a hashkafic legacy for the ages.January 2, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1088565
Tam Mahu OmerMember
I think it’s bad to demonize goyim, they were also created betzelem eloikim. But to stress that we are the chosen nation above the goyim is different, but to point at goyim and say look at those beheymos is wrong. At least at good goyim.January 2, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1088566
Good goyim? An oxymoron if there ever was one.January 2, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1088567
TMO “GOOD GOYIM” (GASP) you obviously haven’t seen TMB post he’s our resident right-wing talmid chochom if you divide everything he says by 8 then he’s right
(but we wouldn’t manage in the CR without him) [he always gives us all a good laugh keep up the good work TMB]January 2, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1088568
“Three Little Pigs”
Im sure tmb would not approve of reading a story about traife animalsJanuary 2, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1088569
“I think it’s bad to demonize goyim…”
It’s even worse to demonize yidden.January 2, 2011 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1088570
Ooh lets discuss cinderella and the distorted hashkafa that puts on shidduchimJanuary 2, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1088571
“Three Little Pigs”
Im sure tmb would not approve of reading a story about traife animalsJanuary 2, 2011 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1088572
yes yes we heard the first timeJanuary 3, 2011 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1088573
I was really into Goldilocks until one day as I was reading it to my little girls as usual but I realized WHAT AM I TEACHING MY KIDS??? that Goldilocks is an outright goniff! It was embarassing to be giving this over to my kids. I closed the book.January 3, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1088574
Wise move frumladygit. Hopefully others too will come to their seichel.January 3, 2011 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1088575
You could also use the story as a platform for further discussion. There’s nothing that says that you have to portray Goldilocks as a saint. You could discuss (in an age appropriate manner, of course) whether what she did was right, might it be okay under certain circumstances, etc.
The WolfJanuary 3, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1088576
It’s quite interesting that Dr. Bruno Bettelheim (an irreligous jew) who was considered one of the greatest child physchologists of his times wrote an entire book examining childrens fairy tales.
The essence of his work basically made the point (quite convincingly) that each and every one of the famous fairy tales are lessons designed to give over specific points in parable form.
For me it was quite eye opening to realize that what I had always been warned of by my Rabbeiem. That even innocent fairy tales that are supposedly just to “entertain” pose hidden risks as they convey hidden messages that are many times in direct contradiction to our mesorah was in fact documented and proven by an independent outside source who most definetley had no idea what he was writing!January 3, 2011 5:37 am at 5:37 am #1088577January 3, 2011 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1088578
I would only be tempted if it was an edition with great illustrations. Then, maybe…but probably not.January 3, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1088579
There is a yiddish, kosher version of Goldilocks called “Mirele-Goldherele und de Drei Beren” (with english translation on the facing page) that has Mirele staying with her grandparents at the end of the summer, shortly before Rosh Hashana. She is warned not to go into the woods but she does and gets lost and finds the bears’ house, etc. BUT, when she gets home and tells her grandfather that she thinks she did something wrong, he says, “You THINK you did something wrong!?” He shleps her back to the bears, makes her apologize and he fixes the little bear’s chair and everyone wishes each other a good year. It might be out of print though.January 3, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1088580
i fell for itJanuary 3, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1088582
Ben Levi there is no mentioned Bruno Bettelheims name in the CR ever. Period.January 3, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1088583
Wolfishmusings, that reminds me of a funny version some author put out of a classic kids book. It was something like “the real true story of the Three little pigs”. Basically the wolf gets his chance to tell his side of the story, to set straight what really happened with the houses made of straw, brick and twig. LOL!January 3, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1088584
I personally do not have any great love for physchology nor for Bruno Bettleheim but the fact remains that he was from the great child physchologists of his era and did much to influence the field.
And whoever wrote his theory makes no difference as it is quite convincing.January 3, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1088585
Basically the wolf gets his chance to tell his side of the story, to set straight what really happened with the houses made of straw, brick and twig. LOL!
I had that book when my kids were young.
As it was, I often took the opportunity to discuss with my kids the motivations of characters in books and stories. It was pretty much clear that not always was the “hero” right and not always was the “villian” wrong.
Stories are a wonderful opportunity to launch into discussions about right and wrong and gray areas in-between — even if you don’t agree with the outcome of the story.
The WolfJanuary 3, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1088586
I personally think you owe them an apology!
[for huffing and puffing and blowing their house down]January 3, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1088587
I personally think you owe them an apology!
The WolfJanuary 4, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1088588
do you have bad yichus then lol!January 4, 2011 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1088589
do you have bad yichus then lol!
I guess so. I know some people here think I should be terribly ashamed of that, but oh well… I guess I’m not a proper “baishan.”
Certainly not the first defect that I have.
The WolfJanuary 4, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1088590
I must say [honestly] that i feel your pain
I know none of my ancestors ever knocked down the houses of three little pigs it must be so hard for you!January 4, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1088591
That’s a very good approach, and original, too. In some books, the message is embedded. I once had a book about sharing that had wierd Hashkafa in it. My kids were too small to read on their own, so we were able to make up our own story line and use the pictures for our own version.January 4, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1088592
I wouldn’t worry about knocking down the houses. The real question is, did he eat them afterwards? Houses can be replaced, but piggies once eaten can’t be un-eaten. Not to mention to question of what kind of hechsher they had, and whether the shechitah was Litvish or Chassidish. (Glatt? Don’t ask 🙂January 4, 2011 4:24 am at 4:24 am #1088593
WOLFISH, Just a personal observation/opinon. To me, you sound very educated. Yeah, serious. I don’t know what is is about your and your posts, they sound generally like they’re coming from a very educated person. Are you? This has nothing to do with the big bad wolf and all that discussion. Its just a personal observation.January 4, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1088594
I don’t know what is is about your and your posts, they sound generally like they’re coming from a very educated person. Are you?
Thank you for the kind words.
2.5 years of Bais Medrash
Bachelor of Arts degree
Currently going for an MBA degree.
Tons and tons of reading on lots of different subjects. I like to read, and do so a lot.
The WolfJanuary 4, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1088595
I teach my kids to critique everything they read. For example, in a Dr. Seuss book: “How many fingers do I see…Eleven? This is something new, I wish I had 11 too!”
I asked the kids why we would not wish for 11 fingers, they said we should be happy with the way Hashem made us. I asked them to come up with a substitute for that line.
Our family’s version is “…I’m glad I have ten, like you!”
Another story we read is about some porters who lied to a passenger about what happened to part of her luggage. At the end of the story, my kids sing “Midvar sheker tirchak” (and one kid likes to yell at the picture of the porters, “Liar, liar, pacifier…”)January 4, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1088597
Most Secular Popular Fairy Tales are either from or based on the collection of the Grimm’s brother fairy tales.
You should read the original versions of the Brother’s Grimm stories (or the faithful English translation by Ralph Mannheim).
Just don’t read them in front of your 3-year-old daughter! They’re not just “politically incorrect” by any standard but more than one of them is blatantly anti-semitic. In view of the fact that the brothers Grimm supposedly travelled around Germany collecting stories people told them, the unsanitised version of the stories must reveal something of what German society was like that ended in the Holocaust.January 4, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1088598
I believe such stories help a child develop a format for dealing with difficult people and adverse circumstances. I meet pigs, bad wolves, bears, greedy giants,packs of theives, and magic bean planters almost every day, and I thank my bubby, my kindergarden teachers and all those that prepared me for this reality.
Tzvi Hersh, there is a collection of Jewish tales from all over our galuyot, fairly benign stories with of course, a mussar embedded. The editor (Dov Noy) makes a strong argument that many of the well known tales are predated by Jewish tales of the same motif.January 4, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1088599
makes a strong argument that many of the well known tales are predated by Jewish tales of the same motif.
Even IF that has any truth to it, they twisted it out of form to the point of oblivion. Much as they took our Torah and twisted it into their corrupted version thereof. (Without us whatever little civilization they have, they would be nothing but savages.)January 4, 2011 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1088600
savta simcha books were always great.
on another note, does anyone remember the poem ”ten little indians”?
they stopped printing it in books coz it was not politically correct.
indians is supposed to be referred to as native americans.January 4, 2011 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1088601
One little, two little, three little Indians
Four little, five little, six little Indians
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians
Ten little Indian boys.
Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians
Seven little, six little, five little Indians
Four little, three little, two little Indians
One little Indian boy.January 4, 2011 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1088602
Ten little Injuns standin’ in a line,
One toddled home and then there were nine;
Nine little Injuns swingin’ on a gate,
One tumbled off and then there were eight.
One little, two little, three little, four little, five little Injun boys,
Six little, seven little, eight little, nine little, ten little Injun boys.
Eight little Injuns gayest under heav’n.
One went to sleep and then there were seven;
Seven little Injuns cuttin’ up their tricks,
One broke his neck and then there were six.
Six little Injuns all alive,
One kicked the bucket and then there were five;
Five little Injuns on a cellar door,
One tumbled in and then there were four.
Four little Injuns up on a spree,
One got fuddled and then there were three;
Three little Injuns out on a canoe,
One tumbled overboard and then there were two.
Two little Injuns foolin’ with a gun,
One shot t’other and then there was one;
One little Injun livin’ all alone,
He got married and then there were none.January 5, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1088603
trying—loved it!!January 5, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1088604
That word is now to be deleted from the English language, in addition to another horrible word used in Twain’s literature. Yup, they’re revising the classics!January 5, 2011 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1088605
mewho remember little black Sambo? They wouldn’t dare print that today either. But probablly they’d print some kids books about the dynamics of a family headed by same sex parents???
We need Moshiach! ( i am not chabad) btw.January 6, 2011 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1088606
I tell my granddaughter, age 2 1/2 many different fairytales, such as Goldilocks, Little Red Riding Hood, and The Three Little Pigs. I always change the endings and some of the storyline, because the originals are rather violent. So, Goldilocks becomes a tale about a little girl who got into some trouble for not listening to her Mommy, but learned how to apologize to the bears for going in whre she was not invited, so they were machnis orchim and invite her to come back another time. Little Red Riding Hood becomes a story about bikur cholim and sharing goodies with the Bubby and with Wolf, who wants to make new friends. The TLP, are about brothers who take care of each other, and that doing something that might be a little hard to do at first, is worth the end result (and then she and I will build something with her leggos, to see if it is strong. we also talk about people being friendly to others and sharing, and that the wolf needs to elarn how to be a miztvah boy and not fight with anyone.
She loves my stories. All the fairytales can be adapted, but even if not, as long as it is not violent, kids should be read to frequently. Not everything in life is about the Latke that Ran Away, or …(I just deleted the second story title I originally posted in this paragraph – I gave myself a great idea for a book, and don’t want someone else to chaap it first!!!)
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