Reasons why I DON'T like Lakewood

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  • #600756
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Before I begin let me say that I have quite a peckel of reasons why I LOVE Lakewood for all its obvious sterling qualities! I merely want to point out things that bother me, and discuss them. Again, I want to be clear that I definitely think that there are many, many positives of Lakewood “Ir HaKodesh”, and have nothing against it. I don’t live there, and I do have many relatives there. I never learned there, only visited several times, but these negative aspects i have listed provoked me. I’d love to hear your input.

    1) There are (hardly) ANY old people living there. This CAN be a problem. Bringing up children in a city where kids don’t have any interaction, let alone SEE, any older person can have negative results. a) They don’t see how their parents treat older people, which affect THEIR behavior towards them. b) They get scared of old people when they do see them. c) Miss out on countless mitzvos which can be done with old people.

    2) Many kehillos are falling apart from the lack of young people. They practically ALL move to Lakewood. From wonderful kehillos such as Chicago, Montreal, L.A., and many many others, which all have built up all the important infrastructures vital for a frum community to thrive, are seen going down the drain. It is sad. Shuls are losing members, aging parents don’t have their kids to watch out for them, and funds for mosdos are sorely lacking. Etc.

    3) Speaking of parents, how many are sincerely comfortable leaving them and hardly seeing them, except for the occasional Yom Tov? (Thank G-d for skype!)

    4) I know, I know, Parnassa is a big reason to go the Woods. However, I know many young men NOT having hatzlocho in parnassa EVEN in NJ. So why do they INSIST on staying there? I beleive, if they REALLY wanted, they can find a job back home.

    #829886
    real-brisker
    Member

    If I recall correctly, the miraglim were punished for saying loshon hora on the land of Eretz Yisroel.

    #829887
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    mech.

    1. There are even retirement communities there.

    2. Chicago has plenty of young people.

    3. So what. Who asked them.

    4. I assume this point is as opposed to living in Flatbush. Nobody can afford to live in Flatbush.

    5. And this is as opposed to which other area in the NYC area?

    6. mech.

    #829888

    *slow clap*

    Bravo!

    You took a stand, said what was on your mind, and raised some valid points.

    Now watch as all of the other posters resort to Ad Homeinum attacks and claim that you are an enemy of Torah for having a different take on things.

    The bubble is unsustainable and there will come a time in the near future where the entire tri state Jewish community will find themselves in a situation where the only resource they have are people. Everything else like money, jobs , and real estate will be gone. And they will have no one to blame but themselves.

    #829889
    Sam2
    Participant

    Real-brisker: Are you comparing Lakewood to Eretz Yisroel? I advise you to look up the Meshech Chochmah about what the Jews said about Germany.

    #829890

    RB, some may consider Lakewood to be admas kodesh but it’s really silly to compare complaints about Lakewood (valid complaints, I might add) to the chet hameraglim.

    #829891
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If I recall correctly, the miraglim were punished for saying loshon hora on the land of Eretz Yisroel.

    And the Meshech Chochma said a Holocaust will arrive because they called Berlin (or Lakewood), Jerusalem.

    #829892
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    real-brisker: that’s why I left the E”Y thread out 🙂

    pba:

    1. shkoach, I meant in your local shul and neighborhood.

    2. I meant Cleveland. I heard their comm. is dwindling.

    3. LOL! just throwing it out there.

    4. ein hochi nami

    5. I’m from OOT, with a OOT mindset. I did not oppose any city in NY. But NO city in NY has neighbourhoods with 3-7+ kids in every single house on the block.

    6. know that for a fact.

    #829893
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To add:

    Getting your child into a school is a nightmare.

    Taxes on homes are high.

    No english for high school boys (I don’t know if this is still the rule).

    And the biggest reason:

    And you have to live in New Jersey, the armpit of America, and the home of Jersey Shore (Note: I have never seen the show, but have heard about it in the news).

    That being said, there are many good things about Lakewood. The Yeshiva alone is a good reason to move there.

    #829894
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Bad thread!! There are reasons not to like any place. True?

    To criticize Lakewood openly and just for the sake of getting something off ones chest

    is a big mistake.

    Lakewood is a HUGE Makom Torah!!! I would argue that outside Yerushalyim, Lakewood is second best place for too many reasons to list.

    #829895
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I would argue that outside Yerushalyim, Lakewood is second best place for too many reasons to list.

    You probably mean “outside Eretz Yisroel”. Slip of the fingers.

    #829897
    Health
    Participant

    I think the OP is more positive than I am about this place and I’ve been here many years. Unforntunately a lot of elders are moving here and are becoming burdens on their kids. If they would have stayed in the towns that they came from, even if they have kids in the same town, they usually don’t end up to be burdens because it’s hard for elders to get used to a new town.

    #829898
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    BTGuy: “Bad thread!! There are reasons not to like any place. True?”

    Yes, but who cares about Minniapolis, Atlanta or Vancouver?

    “To criticize Lakewood openly and just for the sake of getting something off ones chest is a big mistake.”

    why? I’m stuck here OOT! Have a heart. I’m only trying to think positive about my situation ?

    “Lakewood is a HUGE Makom Torah!!! I would argue that outside Yerushalyim, Lakewood is second best place for too many reasons to list.”

    agreed on first point. agreed on second point too. Then again I like Miami better. But anyway…

    #829899
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The way I see it, most of the complaints here are based on the large population. That pretty much tells me that there are a lot of people who think it’s a good place to live.

    It reminds me of Yogi Berra’s comment about a restaurant, “Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded”.

    #829901
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Health: I could tell you live there! For Shame! I hope you are wrong about those kids’ attitudes towards their parents and not considering them to be a BURDEN! Is it not a zechus?! Is it not a happy thing?? a wonderful thing, to have your parents near you? It’s people with THAT perspective exactly that I fear Lakewood kids will grow up viewing their aging parents.

    A burden.

    go figure. you couldn’t have emphasised my point better.

    #829902
    BTGuy
    Participant

    lol BaalHabooze

    Sorry I overreacted. It’s only because I LOVE LAKEWOOD!!!!

    Your sense of humor went over my head on my first glance of your post.

    Peace!

    #829903
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Sam2. I would most definitely compare Lakewood to Eretz Yisroel. The comparison you mention is not valid. The whole reason Lakewood is Lakewood is the Jewish community and all that is Jewish, and not the secular world, as was the case in, l’havdil, germany.

    #829904
    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    I will agree with the “every town has its problems” point. I don’t either live there, though much of my family does, and I HAVE condsidered moving there. The big catch? The in-your-face attitude. Simpler lifestyle? sure. But EVERYTHING you do is noted, and held against you. I couldn’t deal with the accountability. My housing and tuition cost way more (though my taxes are lower), but I wouldn’t trade my low-key mixed yeshiva community for that.

    #829905
    real-brisker
    Member

    I did not mean at all to compare lakewood to EY, (althogh it probaly is first after it.) I just meant to say that one is not allowed to say LH about hashems land. (Sorry for the confusion)

    #829906
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What makes Lakewood holier than Kiryat Yoel or New Square?

    #829907
    Health
    Participant

    BH -“I hope you are wrong about those kids’ attitudes towards their parents and not considering them to be a BURDEN! Is it not a zechus?!”

    It might be a Zecus, but some Mitzvos are harder than others. Taking care of elderly parents in the city/town where they lived most of their lives is much easier than when they first come to live near/by their kids (eg. Lakewood) when they are older!

    #829908
    Sam2
    Participant

    Real-brikser: Calling Lakewood Hashem’s land is absurd. It denies any inherent Kedusha in any places in the world and implies that “Hashem’s land” is where Jews do Mitzvos.

    BTGuy: There are Mishnayos that discuss the Kedusha of different places. Lakewood isn’t one of them. (I’m not saying it’s not a great place to live or anything, just denying this absurd concept that it has any inherent holiness.)

    #829909

    Lakewood is HASHEM’s land in the same way that Atlanta or Omaha or Laramie is HASHEM’s land. “LaShem ha’aretz u’melo’o, teivail v’yoshvei bo”. (pardon the bad transliteration). In no sense can one say lashon harah about a plot of ground or any other inanimate object outside of true admas kodesh, I.E. Eretz Yisroel”.

    On the other hand it is possible to say lashon harah about the people who live there, but the halachas of lashon harah apply. Repeating common knowledge is not lashon harah.

    There are lots of good reasons to live in Lakewood, but there are also difficulties as the OP notes. There is no reason, halachically, hasgafically or otherwise not describe them.

    #829910
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Sam2.

    Well since that time Lakewood acquired kedusha and must be noted as such. You have to be kidding me. I dont know where to start! The crowded lake for taschlich? The open celebrations on Simchas Torah? The learning and davening opportunities that go on as we speak? The minyanim with yidden of every kippa type? From the border of route 9 Lakewood and Toms River, up to Howell just after Shop Rite and out to Jackson and Brick. The wonderful and beautiful things that go on are countless. Lakewood, other than Yerushalayim, is the place to be. If one has an eye for what is beautiful, you will find more than enough in Lakewood.

    Hashem created ten containers of beauty. Nine fell in Yerushalyim, and more than half of the other one fell in Lakewood. ~ BTGuy

    No comment on the, l’havdil, germany analogy?

    And while we are on the subject…why the stretch to besmirch Lakewood and the opinion of those who love Lakewood? Basically, if someone says what it means to them in endearing terms, you are almost saying to them, “That is not true.” The point?

    #829911
    real-brisker
    Member

    sam2 – Your right, ever place in the world is also hashems land, and one cannot say LH about any other land either.

    #829912
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Well since that time Lakewood acquired kedusha and must be noted as such. You have to be kidding me. I dont know where to start! The crowded lake for taschlich? The open celebrations on Simchas Torah? The learning and davening opportunities that go on as we speak? The minyanim with yidden of every kippa type? From the border of route 9 Lakewood and Toms River, up to Howell just after Shop Rite and out to Jackson and Brick. The wonderful and beautiful things that go on are countless. Lakewood, other than Yerushalayim, is the place to be. If one has an eye for what is beautiful, you will find more than enough in Lakewood.

    All wonderful, but you don’t define “Kedusha” the same way Chazal do. (Which is OK, and I am just making a disclaimer). If you think Lakewood is anything, you should have seen Bavel!

    It’s like the guy standing at the Kosel with a sign: “Collecting to go to Uman for Rosh Hashana” 🙂

    #829913

    I simply do not get the infatuation Lakewood expressed above. Lakewood is just a place. the kedushah comes from the Torah learned there and the Torah lives lived there. The same devotion can be had not only for Monsey or Flatbush, but for Baltimore or Philadelphia or Cleveland Heights or Chicago or Waterbury or Miami Beach or… you get it.

    #829914
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The idea of Lakewood being second to Yerushalayim is nothing new.

    Rabbeinu Tam records* that in his time they used to say ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ????????.

    All of you who have issues with Lakewood cannot deny the fact that at the end of the day there are thousands of people sitting and learning there (I learn in a Beis Medrash with over 1000 people in the room alone!), something that is not found anywhere in the world in those proportions.

    *http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14542&st=&pgnum=109

    #829915
    mamashtakah
    Member

    I would most definitely compare Lakewood to Eretz Yisroel.

    No offense to the LOL (lovers of Lakewood), but the most shkotzy places of Tel Aviv have more inherent kedusha than all of Lakewood. Take your blinders off.

    #829916
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I personally dont live in Lakewood because the realtor I dealt with wa honest enough to tell me, dont bother, you will never get your kids into any yeshiva or girls school. In his honesty and candor he told me point blank I have too many strikes against me. I work, wear “colored” shirts, I let my over bar mitzvah boys do the same, take english studies seriously and make sure my kids do the same (and demand the same from the yeshiva) am clean shaven (which in of itself he told me is not bad, but taken together with everything else, creates a package), the light grey pants and navy blue sport jacket just seemed to “over the top” that people would suspect the kashrus in my home and might consider staying away from the wine in my house (OK, i made up the ones about the kashrus). Point being, I was told dont move here because too many people dont want you, and if you do, you wont be welcome. True or not, we took his advice and stayed in Flatbush.

    #829917
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    mamashtakah-

    ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????

    Better to live in a place of Torah that has no inherent kedusha then in a place of inherent kedusha that has no Torah.

    #829918
    littleapple
    Member

    Thanks BTGuy for the beautiful words about Lakewood some of us need to hear that to offset our difficulties with some aspects of what is after all the leading “Torah Only” big tent place in the US.

    #829919
    EzratHashem
    Member

    It takes chesed and generosity to devote one’s time to taking care of elder parents. This generation was brought up on kumpt mir, the two cannot coexist.

    #829920
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The only Chutz La-retz place that compares to Jerusalem is Vilna .

    It was known as the Jerusalem of Lithuania

    #829921
    tzaddiq
    Member

    Most people living in Lakewood are there for job opportunities. (Is that fair to say?)Finding a job where I come from is very difficult. Brooklyn has its own problems, like cost of houses are insane over there, for example! Living in other communities is not unrealistic, but much harder to find a good job. And when I say ‘good job’ I mean GREAT JOB, because we know that in order to to raise a family and have some left over cash after that, requires a GREAT job. A good job won’t cut it.

    I like your points that you make BH. Interesting. Not so sure about the last one though. Lakewooders wear white shirts even if they are working not because they bedavka don’t want a colored shirt, but that’s the ‘fashion’ here. It’s easier for everyone. (Like everyone in the future is supposed to wear that V-neck futuristic suit, just this one is more yeshivish.lol.)

    #829922
    mamashtakah
    Member

    yitayningwut – count the number of times E”Y is mentioned in the Torah vs. the number of times Lakewood is mentioned.

    #829923
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    EzratHashem: I agree 100%.

    Hey no one said taking care of elderly parents wasn’t hard work, and undoubtly can be difficult at times. But to label your father or mother as ‘a burden’ is keneged hashkofas hatorah.

    #829924
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Jerusalem is mentioned in the torah the same number of times as Lakewood

    #829925
    Sam2
    Participant

    BTGuy: Kadosh things happen in Lakewood. Eretz Yisrael has Kedusha.

    Yitay: That’s not a fair comparison. The completely not-frum guy living in Tel Aviv is still Yotzai the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael. The biggest Talmid Chacham in all of Lakewood (or anywhere else in CHU”L) is not.

    #829926
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    tzaddiq –

    Most people living in Lakewood are there for job opportunities. (Is that fair to say?)

    No, it isn’t fair to say. Perhaps many, but certainly not most. If there is a majority it is definitely b’nei yeshiva.

    mamashtakah –

    Count the amount of times Eretz Yisroel is mentioned and how many times Torah is mentioned. Hey wait a second the whole Torah is Torah…

    #829927
    Josh31
    Participant

    The Ir HaKodesh had to address all of the Jewish people. During the 3 times a year we all went up to Jerusalem, all of us were considered Chaverim and reliable. One of the components of the Ketores (incense offering in the Temple), Chelvonah – galbanum (70/368 of the overall mixture) represented that the sinners had to be included in the public prayers. The Temple also addressed the entirety of humanity with the 70 bulls on Succos. Anyone could bring an offering.

    #829928
    bezalel
    Participant

    Jerusalem is mentioned in the torah the same number of times as Lakewood

    Back then Jerusalem was known as Shalem. I have no idea what Lakewood was called.

    #829929
    Health
    Participant

    BaalHabooze -“Hey no one said taking care of elderly parents wasn’t hard work, and undoubtly can be difficult at times. But to label your father or mother as ‘a burden’ is keneged hashkofas hatorah.”

    Even after I explained myself you continued with the above post. So now I see your true intentions. You hate everything about Lakewood including e/o who lives here. Please tell us your town so I can curse it out amongst the fact that people there aren’t Dan L’caf Zecus!

    From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

    “Definition of BURDEN:

    1a : something that is carried : load

    b : duty, responsibility

    2: something oppressive or worrisome”

    If you would have been Dan L’caf Zecus, you’d have said I meant #1b & not #2.

    I wouldn’t want to raise my kids in your town where they aren’t Dan people L’caf Zecus!

    #829931
    Josh31
    Participant

    No matter how spiritually intense a community outside Jerusalem is, it never encompasses all of Klal Yisroel. Hence, it only has the status of a Bamah. (Only actual offerings are prohibited at a Bamah.)

    Only Jerusalem which addresses all of us can have the status of Mikdash, and only it can be called Ir HaKodesh.

    #829932
    Nechomah
    Participant

    RB – “Your right, ever place in the world is also hashems land, and one cannot say LH about any other land either.”

    I once heard a shmuess from R’ Brevda and he said that Los Angeles is the source of all tuma in the world. Now I didn’t take offense because I am from LA and can believe every word is true, but I don’t think he felt that he couldn’t say LH about such a place.

    #829933
    rescue37
    Participant

    As evidenced by the recent demand for busses on Thanksgiving, I think the lack of common sense is the clincher in my dislike of lakewood. There are 2 holidays a year that most americans hold as very important family holidays. To even think of requesting or requiring them to work goes beyond the pale.

    #829934
    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Health: “Unforntunately a lot of elders are moving here and are becoming burdens on their kids.”

    1- why UNfortunately?

    2- the only way to translate burden in that sentence is #2.

    that’s what went through MY mind reading that sentence.

    Now, please, I beg, before this blows way out of proportion, I am sorry if I overreacted. somtimes misinterpretations, slips, and wrong connetations happen when we read other’s posts. I don’t mean to start any fights and am sorry for any harmful feelings I have caused you. Again, chas v’shalom do I hate Lakewood, or any yid living there. This thread was created for creative discussions and friendly debates, not fights or sinas achim, ch”v.

    peace to us.

    #829935
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Lets all gather around BMG bein hasdarim and sing kumbaya together.

    #829936
    tzaddiq
    Member

    lol…apushatayid, I was going to say something along that line, but you beat me to it.

    does anybody know how many (jewish) people live in Lakewood? I think there are about 6000 that are affiliated with the yeshiva, but what is the (approx.) jewish population there nowadays?

    #829937
    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Apushiteryid: I am glad that you made the choice that you felt was right for your family, you should know that there are professional, frum yidden in gray slacks and blue blazers who take English studies seriously living in Lakewood. The trick is to A) move there when kids are still young as it is easier to get a 1st grader into school than say a 5th grader and B) to choose a school that is right for YOU and your families hashkafah. Not every child belong in the Cheder or Bais Faiga. C) choose a neighborhood with others like you. I can say that I DO know such people who have settled and are very happy in Lakewood.

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