September 5, 2018 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1587348
Israeli police were called into a leading Bnei Brak Yeshiva last week, not for the first time, to break up violence
in the Bais Medrash. The chilul HsShem of the ongoing battle in general and this incident in particular is extemely disturbing, especially as we approach the yomim noraim.
I am a bit surprised by the relative silence on this forum. Aren’t we obligated to speak out against chilul HaShem?September 5, 2018 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1587622
The everyday violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent than the rare unfortunate occurrence you refer to in the OP.September 5, 2018 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1587625
What would speaking out here help the situation there? the rosh yeshiva has already spoken about it.September 5, 2018 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1587660
Baruch ha-Shem the Yidden are fighting about Torah and MItsvos. Goyim fight about things such as football (they even once had a war over a football game). The goyim fight about who insulted whom, Sometimes they just get drunk and fight for no reason at all. As long as the Yidden in Eretz Yisrael are rioting over Torah, we know they have their priorities straight.September 5, 2018 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1587650
…. and Joseph, Whatever happened to the incorrigible child you asked about?
A Zionist or masorati one, maybe??
EditedSeptember 5, 2018 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1587648
“……..The EVERYDAY ( caps are mine) violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent …”
Joseph… Please give example of today, let’s say.
EditedSeptember 5, 2018 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1587770
I would expect some Goyim to fight over a football game, that is their nature, I do not expect yeshiva guys to fight in the Beis Medrash, they should be held to a higher standardSeptember 5, 2018 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1587784
<p>”Recent”? My friend, you may want to check your history books. The first brawl in this institution regarding this particular machlokes dates back to the 00’s. This is only the most recent spat of violence, previously the cease-fire was honored with one side sequestered in the ezras nashim and the other side agreeing never to step foot in their. It essentially split the Yeshiva into two Yeshivos occupying a single building.</p>
<p>At least this time no one broke into any of the rebbeim’s houses and beat them with a baseball bat.</p>September 5, 2018 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1587787
It says יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ even when we learn Torah we should have derech eretz. לעולם יהי’ אדם he should always be a mentsch.September 5, 2018 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1587804
The Skrikim against the Degel-niks, against the Chasidim, against who- knows-what-else. Es felt Machlokes?September 5, 2018 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1587807
“The everyday violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent than the rare unfortunate occurrence you refer to in the OP.”
What a ridiculous and shallow statement. In addition to the violent brawl in Ponovezh Yeshiva, YWN reported other incidents of one charedi stabbing another, in Bnei Brak and Kiryat Sefer. And all you have to say is, “charedim are still better than everyone else”? I don’t recall any similarly violent incidents amongst other frum groups, let alone three of them in one week. You always claim that charedim have some kind of exclusive ownership on Torah learning so how can they commit such violence? These incidents are tragic and real introspection is what’s needed, not glib dismissals.September 5, 2018 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1587922
“……The goyim fight about who insulted whom….”
Hard to believe you received a yeshiva education since you don’t know about the sinas chinam that took down the Bet Hamikdash, and specifically the Kamtza bar Kamtza insult story.
Admit it once and for all……Your beef with EY is not ideological… It’s probably about some Histadrut bureaucrat
who didn’t want to give you a job.September 5, 2018 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1588003
Why were they fighting?
How were they fighting?September 5, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1588042
Who, what, when and where??? Really stupid thread without some context or information as to who fought with whom about what issue and why.September 5, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1588045
The outbreaks of violence are very rare. Violence in general in the Chareidi world is rare. Far less than in outside communities. And those rare unfortunate occurrences that do transpire, the level of violence is relatively tiny. Things like burning garbage and throwing chairs. In other communities those things would be considered a routine occurrence, not very remarkable. It gets widely reported when occurring by Chareidim because a) it’s man bites dog and b) the Chareidim are the “Jews’ Jews”, despised for their piety.September 5, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1588030
I don’t think one should put non Jews on a lower level. Non Jews Are people to and many act as good Human beings. Using the work Goyim is both not nice and in my mind hurtful. I don’t think it is any better then someone calling a Jewish person a dirty Jew. Lets remember we were all created in G-ds imagine.September 6, 2018 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1588069
“And those rare unfortunate occurrences that do transpire, the level of violence is relatively tiny.”
Do you really think that the two charedim committed “relatively tiny” acts of violence when they attempted to stab two other charedim to death? Enough of your crocodile tears about charedim being “despised for their piety”. These incidents demonstrate that their piety may not go any deeper than the white shirts they wear. The attraction to violence and rioting in their communities has only increased in recent years and this is where it has led. It doesn’t originate externally from books, movies or smartphones so something is horrendously broken within their camp.September 6, 2018 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1588094
It all comes to gaavah gaavah gaavah, to quote rav shteinman. What we should learn from these to situations is to take an inner look into our own chutpzah and gaavah. If we can take steps to change ourselves and lower our own gaavah, we will effect the rest of klal yisrael for the better. Since we are connected to all of the olamos, we can effect them all, each person according to the shoresh of his neshama.September 6, 2018 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1588170
Shalomstreet, I do not think that “goyim” is a pejorative as it means “nations”. In fact, someone told me that he was told that “non-Jew” is offensive because he described the person according to what she is not. For that matter, at one time “Jew” was considered a pejorative (the polite words were “Hebrew” and “Israelite”. Interestingly, when Khrushchev was in Poland after the Soviet occupation he was shocked to hear Jews referring to themselves by a word which is a pejorative in Russian but a polite word in Polish. However, “shaigetz” and “shiksa” are objectively offensive as they come from “shaketz”.September 6, 2018 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1588171
Phil, you can continue to envy the Chareidi community considering your MO has a 25-50% off the derech rate.September 6, 2018 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1588092
on the ballParticipant
The lack of straight thinking in some of the comments on this terrible issue is astounding especially since they are coming from people who normally make astute and correct points (IMHO)
@joseph: So what if ‘the everyday violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent (itself a debatable point)…’. Since when do we hold ourselves to their standards? On the contrary,a Chilul Hashem is defined precisely by the Rambam as incorrect behaviour by Talmidei Chachomim, ie those who should have a higher standard – and that’s for minor things like buying meat on credit rather than paying – let alone engaging in violence. And so what if violence amongst charedim is rare? This was never about judging Charedi society as a whole or comparing them to other societies. The behaviour here is a disgusting Chilul Hashem and that’s all that’s being pointed out here.
@akuperma – Seriously??? Baruch Hashem they are fighting about Torah? Firstly maybe this is news to you but they are not fighting about pshat in a Rashba. They are fighting about politics, kovod, places in the Beis Hamedrash and money (not their money but of the Roshei Hayeshiva). This makes it no better – in fact worse than Goyim fighting about football. Secondly, even if they WERE fighting about Torah, since when is their a hetter to be mevatel Torah, damage property, inflict pain and wounds on others and cause a gigantic Chilul Hashem – guaranteed to undermine kiruv efforts, guaranteed to cause people to look down on lomdei Torah. Baruch Hashem??? Please tell me you were joking.September 6, 2018 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1588325
“Phil, you can continue to envy the Chareidi community considering your MO has a 25-50% off the derech rate.”
That’s your infantile defense of two incidents of attempted murder within the charedi camp? Not really surprising, given how animated you get when posting in favor of beating up children. No wonder that Syag called your worldview “the sadistic joseph style imaginary Torah life” on another thread. While I may not be an E”Y charedi and certainly don’t envy them in any way, I’m also not and have never been MO. Regardless, you’d be hard pressed to find similar incidents within their camp and there are good reasons for that.September 9, 2018 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1589314
What were they actually fighting about?September 11, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1589418
What’s the chilik, NCB. When the great of the greatest are in a heated argument, the hamon hoam is best to keep their heads out of it. If they know what’s good for them, that is.
Phil, you’re not and have never been MO; you’re not and have never been Chareidi; and you’re not and have never been Orthodox. You’re stam a sheigetz. You’ve advocated eating food without certification so long it doesn’t have known non-kosher ingredients; you’ve endorsed driving to shul on Shabbos if that’ll help shul attendence. But what you will be called out for is when you falsely put words in other’s mouths, as you’ve done in your most recent comment. A born liar always remains a liar, apparently, as you’ve never changed your false ways.September 11, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1589431
Joseph, the rate in the Chareidi community is about the same if not higher. Until recently there was no place for Chareidi guys who are not built for all day learning . What happened was that street groups known as the “Shabab Chareidi” (shabab are Arab boys who commit relatively low-lקvel acts against Israel – it is related to the Hebrew שובב). When I lived in Bnei Beraq I personally witnessed a brawl of leil Shabbat (!) between a group of these kids and the “modesty police”.September 11, 2018 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1589525
Avi, the rate isn’t even in the ballpark. The rate is barely in the very low single digits.September 12, 2018 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1589555
Joseph, according to what I read the figure in Israel is 20%. Add to that those who become Dati Leumi (there are, in fact, organizations in both Israel and the US that help people who find the Chareidi community too restrictive but do not want to give up Shabbat, kashrut, etc.). Add to that those who stay on the periphery of Chareidi communities but commit various minor crimes.
As for the DL community, it is hard to say as unlike Chareidi schools State Religious schools accept kids from traditional homes (e.g. a formal Shabbat dinner with Kiddush and “hamotzi” followed by TV at night and a soccer game during the day). I have not seen statistics for the US but the book Off the Derech seemed to say that it is much higher than you claim. The main reason seems to be rejection do to minor things, which is much more prevalent in the Chareidi community. I also have not seen percentages for OTDs who return but probably it is much higher for MO/DLs as these communities make an effort to keep these people connected. In fact, many OTDs from settlements continue to live in their communities even after they get married – which means that as their kids get older and start asking questions they might have to come back at least somewhat (an immigrant from Russia once told me that he sent his kids to a State Religious school because of the better discipline and that he and his wife would probably have to start observing so as not to confuse them).September 12, 2018 6:55 am at 6:55 am #1589559
Avi, In the US, eminent MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky cited an MO OTD rate of 25% or 50%. In Israel it is well known that a large percentage of former Hesder students enter the army daati but leave the army as chiloni. In the Chareidi world, both the US and Israel, the rate is in the very low single digits.September 12, 2018 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1590397
“When the great of the greatest are in a heated argument, the hamon hoam is best to keep their heads out of it. If they know what’s good for them.”
This must be what you tell your 27 children when they see you fighting with your 3 wives. So what consequences are you threatening against those who decry these violent bochurim imitating their violent elders? Are you going to get violent with them if they don’t cease and desist forthwith?September 12, 2018 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1590374
Joseph, the rate is low relative to high birthrate. What do you call these Chareidi hooligans who sit all night in the parks of Beit Shemesh 3 playing loud Electric ‘dance music’ and picking fights with passerby i have seen this many times. You consider them to be ‘frum’? because they wear a Yarmulke.September 12, 2018 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1590406
Rafi, I’m not disputing whether the reason the rate is low is due to the Chareidi high birth rate. Nor am I asserting that the rate is zero, unfortunately. Yes, with a high birth rate and B”H booming population even a very low OTD rate can equate with a notable number of such persons, in actual (real) numbers. Nevertheless, unfortunately the OTD rate has never been zero throughout Jewish history. That said, the Chareidi community has a very lot to be proud of that it is as tiny as it is. On a comparative basis we’re clearly doing a lot of things right.
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