Recent chilul HaShem

What would speaking out here help the situation there? the rosh yeshiva has already spoken about it.

…. and Joseph, Whatever happened to the incorrigible child you asked about?
A Zionist or masorati one, maybe??

Edited

I would expect some Goyim to fight over a football game, that is their nature, I do not expect yeshiva guys to fight in the Beis Medrash, they should be held to a higher standard

It says יפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ even when we learn Torah we should have derech eretz. לעולם יהי’ אדם he should always be a mentsch.

“The everyday violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent than the rare unfortunate occurrence you refer to in the OP.”

Joseph,

What a ridiculous and shallow statement. In addition to the violent brawl in Ponovezh Yeshiva, YWN reported other incidents of one charedi stabbing another, in Bnei Brak and Kiryat Sefer. And all you have to say is, “charedim are still better than everyone else”? I don’t recall any similarly violent incidents amongst other frum groups, let alone three of them in one week. You always claim that charedim have some kind of exclusive ownership on Torah learning so how can they commit such violence? These incidents are tragic and real introspection is what’s needed, not glib dismissals.

Why were they fighting?

How were they fighting?

The outbreaks of violence are very rare. Violence in general in the Chareidi world is rare. Far less than in outside communities. And those rare unfortunate occurrences that do transpire, the level of violence is relatively tiny. Things like burning garbage and throwing chairs. In other communities those things would be considered a routine occurrence, not very remarkable. It gets widely reported when occurring by Chareidim because a) it’s man bites dog and b) the Chareidim are the “Jews’ Jews”, despised for their piety.

“And those rare unfortunate occurrences that do transpire, the level of violence is relatively tiny.”

Joseph,

Do you really think that the two charedim committed “relatively tiny” acts of violence when they attempted to stab two other charedim to death? Enough of your crocodile tears about charedim being “despised for their piety”. These incidents demonstrate that their piety may not go any deeper than the white shirts they wear. The attraction to violence and rioting in their communities has only increased in recent years and this is where it has led. It doesn’t originate externally from books, movies or smartphones so something is horrendously broken within their camp.

Shalomstreet, I do not think that “goyim” is a pejorative as it means “nations”. In fact, someone told me that he was told that “non-Jew” is offensive because he described the person according to what she is not. For that matter, at one time “Jew” was considered a pejorative (the polite words were “Hebrew” and “Israelite”. Interestingly, when Khrushchev was in Poland after the Soviet occupation he was shocked to hear Jews referring to themselves by a word which is a pejorative in Russian but a polite word in Polish. However, “shaigetz” and “shiksa” are objectively offensive as they come from “shaketz”.

The lack of straight thinking in some of the comments on this terrible issue is astounding especially since they are coming from people who normally make astute and correct points (IMHO)

@Joseph: So what if ‘the everyday violence and fighting among the Zionists, daati, masorti and chiloni, is overwhelmingly more frequent (itself a debatable point)…’. Since when do we hold ourselves to their standards? On the contrary,a Chilul Hashem is defined precisely by the Rambam as incorrect behaviour by Talmidei Chachomim, ie those who should have a higher standard – and that’s for minor things like buying meat on credit rather than paying – let alone engaging in violence. And so what if violence amongst charedim is rare? This was never about judging Charedi society as a whole or comparing them to other societies. The behaviour here is a disgusting Chilul Hashem and that’s all that’s being pointed out here.

@akuperma – Seriously??? Baruch Hashem they are fighting about Torah? Firstly maybe this is news to you but they are not fighting about pshat in a Rashba. They are fighting about politics, kovod, places in the Beis Hamedrash and money (not their money but of the Roshei Hayeshiva). This makes it no better – in fact worse than Goyim fighting about football. Secondly, even if they WERE fighting about Torah, since when is their a hetter to be mevatel Torah, damage property, inflict pain and wounds on others and cause a gigantic Chilul Hashem – guaranteed to undermine kiruv efforts, guaranteed to cause people to look down on lomdei Torah. Baruch Hashem??? Please tell me you were joking.

What were they actually fighting about?

Joseph, the rate in the Chareidi community is about the same if not higher. Until recently there was no place for Chareidi guys who are not built for all day learning . What happened was that street groups known as the “Shabab Chareidi” (shabab are Arab boys who commit relatively low-lקvel acts against Israel – it is related to the Hebrew שובב). When I lived in Bnei Beraq I personally witnessed a brawl of leil Shabbat (!) between a group of these kids and the “modesty police”.

Joseph, according to what I read the figure in Israel is 20%. Add to that those who become Dati Leumi (there are, in fact, organizations in both Israel and the US that help people who find the Chareidi community too restrictive but do not want to give up Shabbat, kashrut, etc.). Add to that those who stay on the periphery of Chareidi communities but commit various minor crimes.
As for the DL community, it is hard to say as unlike Chareidi schools State Religious schools accept kids from traditional homes (e.g. a formal Shabbat dinner with Kiddush and “hamotzi” followed by TV at night and a soccer game during the day). I have not seen statistics for the US but the book Off the Derech seemed to say that it is much higher than you claim. The main reason seems to be rejection do to minor things, which is much more prevalent in the Chareidi community. I also have not seen percentages for OTDs who return but probably it is much higher for MO/DLs as these communities make an effort to keep these people connected. In fact, many OTDs from settlements continue to live in their communities even after they get married – which means that as their kids get older and start asking questions they might have to come back at least somewhat (an immigrant from Russia once told me that he sent his kids to a State Religious school because of the better discipline and that he and his wife would probably have to start observing so as not to confuse them).

“When the great of the greatest are in a heated argument, the hamon hoam is best to keep their heads out of it. If they know what’s good for them.”

Joseph,

This must be what you tell your 27 children when they see you fighting with your 3 wives. So what consequences are you threatening against those who decry these violent bochurim imitating their violent elders? Are you going to get violent with them if they don’t cease and desist forthwith?

Rafi, I’m not disputing whether the reason the rate is low is due to the Chareidi high birth rate. Nor am I asserting that the rate is zero, unfortunately. Yes, with a high birth rate and B”H booming population even a very low OTD rate can equate with a notable number of such persons, in actual (real) numbers. Nevertheless, unfortunately the OTD rate has never been zero throughout Jewish history. That said, the Chareidi community has a very lot to be proud of that it is as tiny as it is. On a comparative basis we’re clearly doing a lot of things right.