Recent shootings/protests

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  • #617950
    Working on it
    Participant

    This movement should be called “Black Lives only matter when white men do the shooting”. I’m not saying the police are right in all of these cases, I just don’t see the same level of outrage with black on black crime. Where are these protests when dozens of people get shot in Chicago over a weekend? Do they march on City Hall to protest the drug dealers who are luring young black men into a life of crime? Take a look at all of the cities where these protests are taking place and let me know the last time (or the first) they protested black on black shooting. This is all a bunch of noise meant to make these people feel better about a cause and perpetuate the idea that “the white man” is keeping them down. Lets get real, they would accomplish a lot more if they exerted all of this energy into reading and vocational programs.

    #1166172
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    While black on black crime is certainly a problem:

    a. that is largely gang violence which while bad, if a perosn isnt involved in a gang he is unlikely to be killed by “black crime” for driving round with a busted taillight or selling loose cigarettes.

    b. PArt of the problem is the lack of accoumtability. We all saw the video of Eric Garner’s death (execution?). I definitely understand losing faith in the system when his murderers (whether intentional or not) wont even stand trial for their crime (again intentional or not).

    c. Police should be held to a higher standard than criminals. Saying Well “black criminals” are killing balcks too so why does it matter if the police do it, Just doesnt make a lot of sense.

    d. I dont think protesting drug dealers would get them to stop their criminal ways. Protesting the police/government on the other hand (obviously non-violently) is a wholly reasonable way to demand change.

    #1166173
    Joseph
    Participant

    Where are the mass protests against black-on-white shootings, killings and crimes? Specifically black-on-police shootings, which occur far far far more frequently, unjustified shootings, killings and attacks on police officers, than any amount of unjustified police-on-black shootings.

    #bluelivesmatter

    #whitelivesmatter

    Let’s organize a mass protest against unjustified shootings of police officers, and other violent crimes perpetrated against law enforcement officials, across the Brooklyn Bridge.

    #1166174
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    see b -d

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/recent-shootingsprotests#post-615155

    and I’m not sure what you mean. There are protests! Everybody rightly condemned and protests the murder of 5 police officers last week. The cop killer dint walk off as many who shot unarmed or non-violent blacks have in the recent past.

    However when it comes to police on black shootings many have the following attitude “Another day, another criminal getting into an altercation with law enforcement.”

    see here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/police-brutality-and-possible-racism#post-614970

    #1166175
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    pecifically black-on-police shootings, which occur far far far more frequently

    Not true (at least with regard to fatalities).

    So far, 26 police officers have died of gunshot wounds in 2016. There is no racial breakdown for this data, so let’s say that I give you all 26 as having come from blacks.

    123 blacks have been killed by police officers this year, to date. So to state that blacks kill cops “far far far more frequently” than the reverse is patently untrue.

    The Wolf

    #1166176
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, I said unjustified shootings. Your count includes a vast majority of police shootings of violent criminals who were posing an immediate mortal threat to law enforcement and/or the public

    #1166177
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Killing people is wrong in general, regardless of the color of the people being killed or the people doing the killing.

    #1166178
    Health
    Participant

    Working on it – You are absolutely correct!

    Instead of focusing on police abuse, he (the president) as an black person could have addressed real social problems in the black community!

    Eg. – in the book, titled Race, Crime and Justice on page 179

    -“The results supported the main hypothesis and showed that … prevalence of families headed by women in black communities was related to rates of black murder and robbery by Juveniles!”

    He instead associated with guys like Al SharpTongue which are race baiters.

    Why are there Not a lot of two-parent households in the black community?!?

    #1166179
    miamilawyer
    Participant

    One of the reasons why this argument will never get resolved is that like most issues, both sides are half right. There is no question that police officers do not react the same way to blacks as they do to whites. Whites are cut far more slack and blacks are often treated outrageously, sometimes to the point of improper murder by police. However, for whatever reason (another issue that could fill pages), the black community has not really done as well as others and a much higher percentage remain in poverty and ghettos, etc…which of course reinforces the police officers fears and stereotypes and actions, which of course results in their poor treatment of blacks…

    #1166180
    Joseph
    Participant

    A far far higher percentage of blacks are criminal than are whites. So when an officer pulls over a black suspected of a crime, there’s a far greater likelihood he’s a criminal than a pulled over white. Are law enforcement officers supposed to ignore this difference in likelihood?

    #1166181
    Health
    Participant

    Miamilawyer – Your post sounds like a defense lawyer!

    I can’t really blame you – you went to law school where they spend a lot of time teaching you how to defend people.

    There is a lot of social problems in the black community! I alluded to it in my previous post.

    There is a course in college called sociology. IDK if you took it, but in my college they discussed crime.

    One of the things that were discussed was the issue of something called a subculture. Subcultures exist in American Society.

    What I never heard or seen, is this issue in the news!

    Now subcultures exist mainly in minority societies.

    Can you explain – why this is?!?

    #1166182
    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Joseph Said

    A far far higher percentage of blacks are criminal than are whites. So when an officer pulls over a black suspected of a crime, there’s a far greater likelihood he’s a criminal than a pulled over white. Are law enforcement officers supposed to ignore this difference in likelihood?

    Response: This does not explain why when two individuals who are pulled over for the EXACT SAME CRIME–no question, both are guilty, whites get treated one way and blacks the other.

    Health: There are multiple opinions as to why poverty and crime are higher in the black community from we brought them here as slaves and then kept them down with Jim Crow so its all our fault to their leaders only care about lining their own pocket and everything in between.

    the hagaddah says that without g-d, we would not have escaped Egypt. I realize some read that metaphorically, but regardless, it has been thousands of years. My grandmother (who passed away 10 years ago) remembered fondly when blacks had to be off of Miami Beach at night.

    So its a complicated issue that certainly cannot be done justice here, though it is entertaining to try while I am sick today and spending more time here than usual.

    #1166183
    Health
    Participant

    miamilawyer -“Health: There are multiple opinions as to why poverty and crime are higher in the black community from we brought them here as slaves and then kept them down with Jim Crow so its all our fault to their leaders only care about lining their own pocket and everything in between.”

    It’s obvious that you don’t know what a subculture is!

    IDK if you took sociology in school. I do know that you’re very liberal. Your post tends to imply no individual responsibility!

    I’ll tell you what a subculture is – in the black community the culture of right vs. wrong is Not so clear. For example, ghetto blacks tolerate gangs, it’s not ostracized like in the white community!

    This difference in cultures have an effect on society. We have too many liberal politicians and therefore too many liberal laws!

    If this country wants to have any changes, we must become more conservative! The lies perpetuated by the politicians and organizations like “Black Lives Matter” have to cease!

    #1166184
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Barack Obama shouldn’t be expected to identify with American black communities. He’s white on the American side.

    #1166185
    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Health: It’s obvious that you don’t know what a subculture is!

    IDK if you took sociology in school. I do know that you’re very liberal. Your post tends to imply no individual responsibility!

    Response: My post is intended to simply list the options. It said “multiple opinions” from “its all our (white peoples) fault” to “their leaders only care about lining their pockets.”

    The latter puts the blame entirely on them. To me, those are the two extremes, and again, neither is correct. And I am actually quite moderate, I only appear liberal to you because you are clearly quite conservative.

    I agree that there is a subculture that perpetuates issues but the larger question is why does that subculture not change, or why is it so slow to change?

    Another answer is that they are the descendants of noach son who was cursed (a quite conservative view, but also one that removes personal responsibility). Because regardless, when you are talking about a subculture you have to ask why a group is a certain way, it requires group answers.

    I do agree that to an extent, personal responsibility is necessary in all cases. Anyway, on this site I appear liberal because of the bend of most, but I am quite moderate and one of the few that still exists. Most importantly, I am a lawyer who enjoys the discussion.

    #1166186
    Joseph
    Participant

    miamilawyer: “This does not explain why when two individuals who are pulled over for the EXACT SAME CRIME–no question, both are guilty, whites get treated one way and blacks the other.”

    That’s your presumption which has no factual basis.

    #1166187
    Avi K
    Participant

    Miamilawyer,

    1. It cannot be known what percentage of American blacks are descendants of slave owners . As for Bnei Noach yichus is through the father that would make them Brtish.

    2. According to many economists, the welfare state is responsible for entrenched black poverty as it encourages the breakup of families. Regarding the current situation, many observers blame identity politics. Libertarians have jumped on this bandwagon and blamed a general collectivist mentality. IMHO, this seems logical. If you look at the person across from you as another individual you relate to him differently than if you look at him as part of an enemy group. Thus, the generals did not allow a repeat of the first WW1 Xmas truce when Allied and German soldiers fraternized with each other.

    #1166189
    Health
    Participant

    Miamilawyer -“I agree that there is a subculture that perpetuates issues but the larger question is why does that subculture not change, or why is it so slow to change?”

    The answer I believe in – is that they don’t want to change!

    Like I posted previously -“ghetto blacks tolerate gangs, it’s not ostracized like in the white community!”

    Now why do you think that this is?

    I think that this is because a lot of people in the black community, even the law abiding ones, don’t believe in personal responsibility for whatever reason. Also they have strong feelings towards family members, where the gang members come from. This takes precedence over societal concerns!

    You posted -“There is no question that police officers do not react the same way to blacks as they do to whites. Whites are cut far more slack and blacks are often treated outrageously, sometimes to the point of improper murder by police.”

    Now you know the reason why they are treated differently!

    It’s common sense!

    Now we have politicians who won’t admit these culture differences, from the president on down, who portray that this is based on discrimination.

    I was always taught, when you point a finger at s/o, 4 point back at you! There are a lot of liberals in this country, that are easily fooled!

    #1166190
    Joseph
    Participant
    #1166191
    Health
    Participant

    Joe – I’m waiting for the libs here to say that the FBI are “Racist Pigs”!

    #1166192

    #1166193
    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Joseph quoting me: “This does not explain why when two individuals who are pulled over for the EXACT SAME CRIME–no question, both are guilty, whites get treated one way and blacks the other.”

    Joseph: That’s your presumption which has no factual basis.

    ME: That is actually not true. Google “statistics blacks treated more harshly than whites police” and you will get quite a bit

    ALso, this general discussion shows why Congress can get nothing done, and why increasingly people are polarizing and unable to talk to each other.

    Both sides cannot admit the other sides points and reach compromise. As I see it, it is both true that blacks are treated harsher by police, but to some degree, profiling works.

    But we cannot have the discussion about whether profiling is fair because one side wont admit it exists, and the other argues that profiling does not work, when A)it exists, and B) it works, but C) should we use it?

    #1166194
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    miami lawer.

    Thats not quite true. I admit there is a real problem in the black community, (though I dont have a solution I am beginning to see the merits in affirmative action as a step in that direction).

    The problem is it is used as an excuse not to address real issues. Look at the OP which essentially said, who cares if cops kill black people since black people also kill black people.

    why does it have to be all or nothing? Starting with police violence is a great place to start!

    #1166195
    Health
    Participant

    Miamilawyer -“But we cannot have the discussion about whether profiling is fair because one side wont admit it exists, and the other argues that profiling does not work, when A)it exists, and B) it works, but C) should we use it?”

    Please tell us who the sides are.

    I consider that I’m conservative and I believe in profiling!

    It does not make sense when the cops or the TSA only pull over every 10th guy.

    What does make sense – is that instead of pulling over the old lady in the wheelchair, pull over the swath – looking guy, with the beady eyes, for inspection!

    #1166196
    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Health:

    “Please tell us who the sides are.

    I consider that I’m conservative and I believe in profiling!

    It does not make sense when the cops or the TSA only pull over every 10th guy.

    What does make sense – is that instead of pulling over the old lady in the wheelchair, pull over the swath – looking guy, with the beady eyes, for inspection!”

    Me: Correct, the conservative view is yours and that profiling works and should be used. The liberal view is that profiling is bogus and does not work. Obviously, this is a huge oversimplification. And my view is that it does work, but that does not necessarily mean it should be used.

    Also, I believe that profiling should be used re terrorism because that is life and death, and therefore we should do it. The ends (keeping people alive) justify the means. On drug crimes, I think we should not. Even on robbery, unless someone is in danger, probably not. Chopping off hands also works, but we have decided as a country that for that, the ends do not justify the means.

    #1166197
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Many murders are drug related, so if life death is your criteria, we should profile for drug crimes.

    Many robbers are also murderers, so I believe profiling for robbery would also save lives.

    #1166198
    Health
    Participant

    Ubiq -“The problem is it is used as an excuse not to address real issues. Starting with police violence is a great place to start!”

    You’re correct about using excuses; but Not correct on where to start!

    We should start with Obama’s hometown (Chicago).

    Here are the stats for this year, so far, in homicide:

    ” Victim Assailant

    Black 263 46

    Hispanic 60 16

    White/Other 17 2

    Police – 4

    No Arrest – 270″

    So you see – the cops only killed 4 guys.

    But they’re 263 black victims!

    So it’s obvious that the cops aren’t doing their job of catching bad guys!

    It’s also obvious that most homicides are committed by blacks!

    So now we see, plain as daylight, where the problem lies, and it’s Not with the cops!

    #1166199
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Killing people is wrong in general, regardless of the color of the people being killed or the people doing the killing.”

    The Dallas police were absolutely right to take out the shooter who had already shot 11 people, five fatally. Until a shooter puts down his gun and surrenders, the faster you can stop him the better — and if lethal force is necessary, so be it.

    #1166200
    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘I’m waiting for the libs here to say that the FBI are “Racist Pigs”!’

    You won’t hear that from me.

    #1166201
    Avi K
    Participant

    The racial angle is in the eyes of the statistician. A Washington Post study found that an equal number of blacks and whites were shot by police but cited the fact that there are many more whites than blacks. A Harvard study published in Commentary only looked at incidents that might have justified deadly force and found that blacks are actually less likely to be shot by police.

    #1166202
    charliehall
    Participant

    I will repeat what I have said before, only with more detail.

    Had Eric Garner been Jewish we would have been out on the streets protesting *en masse* the death of a person whose crime was to sell untaxed cigarettes. I would have locked up Garner for a long time — cigarettes kill far more people than Americans — but tax evasion is not a death penalty offense.

    Ditto every other police shooting of an African American. Like Philando Castile whose crime was to have a busted taillight — and a legal concealed weapon for which he had a permit. (The National Rifle Association has been conspicuously silent regarding Castile’s death, raising justified outrage at its silence. Apparently it believes that only white people have a right to bear arms.)

    When we refuse to be outraged at the violations of the rights of others, we pretend that we don’t have to worry about our own rights. And when they come for us, there will be nobody left to stand up with us.

    #1166203
    Health
    Participant

    Charlie -“When we refuse to be outraged at the violations of the rights of others, we pretend that we don’t have to worry about our own rights. And when they come for us, there will be nobody left to stand up with us.”

    You’re right!

    I just posted this previously:

    “It’s also obvious that most homicides are committed by blacks!

    So now we see, plain as daylight, where the problem lies, and it’s Not with the cops!”

    So how come that I haven’t seen even one demonstration?!?

    I thought black lives matter!

    Where is the outrage?!?

    #1166204
    Working on it
    Participant

    ubiquitin wrote “Look at the OP which essentially said, who cares if cops kill black people since black people also kill black people.” – that isn’t what I said at all. Actually, its quite the opposite; Why DON”T they care when black people kill other black people? “why does it have to be all or nothing?” Because either you care about all lives or you only care to promote your own agenda. Guys like Al Sharpton only care about lining their own pockets and stoking the fires of racial tension so they can get more publicity.

    Oh, and how aout the following;

    As I asked before, don’t those lives matter?

    #1166205
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Working on it

    “As I asked before, don’t those lives matter?”

    Of course they do!

    but …

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/recent-shootingsprotests#post-615155

    #1166206
    Sam2
    Participant

    charlie: “Ditto every other police shooting of an African American. Like Philando Castile whose crime was to have a busted taillight — and a legal concealed weapon for which he had a permit. (The National Rifle Association has been conspicuously silent regarding Castile’s death, raising justified outrage at its silence. Apparently it believes that only white people have a right to bear arms.)”

    You are behind the times. The cops said he was pulled over for more than a busted taillight. And the only person who claims he had a permit was the girlfriend. No one has corroborated that. Also, the NRA did release a statement. A while ago.

    #1166207
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“You are behind the times.”

    No, he’s not! He knew everything, but he confabulates on the issue that he forgot!

    #1166208
    Joseph
    Participant

    Another day, another armed thug fleeing from the police with a rap sheet and a stolen loaded gun is lawfully shot by law enforcement after turning towards the officers gun in-hand, and another Black Lives Matter riot occurs.

    #1166209

    things are only going to get worse cause the #1 in power obama supports muslims-cause he is a muslim- & he supports shvartzas also.

    it will take years before the group “black lives matter” shuts down

    #1166210
    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“another Black Lives Matter riot occurs.”

    The fact is:

    1. Our president is a race-baiter.

    2. All liberal Democrats are also race-baiters.

    3. You’ll never hear them talking about the illegal riots.

    4. You’ll never hear them talking about the black on black crime, which is a daily occurrence!

    I’m getting tired – so I’ll wait for the liberal posters here to comment, before I post more.

    #1166211
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Having looked into the issue of police shootings, I’d like to bring up a simple point. Many in the BLM movement believe that the police actively intend to shoot blacks. I believe that there are certainly bad apples, and we’ve seen proof of those, but you can’t really account for those, and they don’t typify the organisation, and the main cause of blacks being shot is the endemic criminality among the black population. The police as a whole are more guilty of poor responses and bad training then racism. There may be a general subconscious racial bias, but not the issue they claim exists.

    #1166213
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    TO NeutiquamErro:

    Here is an article from abcnews (Aug. 15) that supports your position.

    “A Chicago-based communist revolutionary group blamed by Milwaukee’s police chief for stoking a second day of violence said that some of its members did go there to “support a revolution” but didn’t set out to cause trouble.

    Police chief Ed Flynn said members of a Chicago chapter of the Revolutionary Communist Party turned what had been a peaceful night into a tense one by leading marchers down several blocks at around 11:30 p.m. TV footage showed a small group of protesters walking or running through the streets, sometimes toppling orange construction barriers.”

    Instead of blaming Black people for the problem, perhaps we ought to consider that RevCom and BLM statements should be prosecutable as incitement to violence, but the justice system can’t or won’t prosecute them. Just make them financially liable for their “support a revolution” statements, and the worst of the violence will end.

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