September 6, 2009 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #590351shaindelMember
I heard two people talking about how they’re making a wedding in a very upscale hall. They said “oh we’re refinancing….”
What has our community come to so in order to make a wedding you’ll put yourself in debt??????
Why can’t people start living within their means??????September 6, 2009 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #659065JosephParticipant
Meshugoyim.September 6, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #659066havesomeseichelMember
Why can’t people go according to the simcha guidelines? I have been to weddings that didnt even take them into consideration… I wonder if it cost as much as a month’s (or a year’s) rent, bills, tuition for their other kids….September 6, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #659067Be HappyParticipant
Shaindel you are so right. What is with buying clothes, going on holiday buying a car etc?
Why do we need to consider what other people might think of us if e.g. we don’t have a new designer label dress for YomTov. Do we really need the latest model of cars?
It reminds me when I got married people were commenting on what a beautiful kallah dress I had. One lady asked me how much it cost and I said $40 dollars as I had bought it in a sample sale. Suddenly it was not such a special dress..in their eyesSeptember 7, 2009 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #659068Mrs. BeautifulMember
My mother was telling me that she was just at a wedding that was very simplebut very nice. Both sides followed Takanos and the wedding did not rip their pockets! It’s hard to go against the tide.September 7, 2009 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #659069
the whole mentality is so ridiculous, i can’t understand it. i plan to iyH have the cheapest wedding possible, because i will never be able to enjoy my wedding knowing that my parents are having such financial difficulties because of it. what happened to people not thinking of themselves first, but thinking of their parents who have raised them and brought them to this point, and having hakaros hatov towards them? you can have a beautiful beautiful wedding and not have to go completely crazy w the money aspect.September 7, 2009 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #659070havesomeseichelMember
Expensive weddings can cost more than just money. It can cause hurt feelings and emotional energy from both sides. It can cost some sholom bayis at the beginning of the marriage- something that we dont want to see! (well, my mom spent this and yours owes her…Your wife/husband’s side owes so much to us, no wonder they can afford XYZ..sounds childish but it can happen!)September 8, 2009 11:42 am at 11:42 am #659071
Come to Eretz Yisrael, you can make a wedding in Yerushalayim for about $5000 each side including everything. I don’t believe the couple is any happier married with an eye-popping wedding which puts you in the poorhouse, come to your senses you Americans – what is more important the wedding or the marriage? A marriage after all is a license to live as husband and wife, it is a cause for joy but so are other times in life – remember after six hours it is over but the debts remains forever. Thank G-d I left all that – my boys’ Bar Mitzvahs were homemade food in a simple shul hall for family and a few close friends with a kiddush on Shabbos for my neighborhood, and you know what – my boys loved it. I am telling you, follow the examples of Eretz Yisrael where people have their head on straight about these things.September 8, 2009 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #659072Feif UnParticipant
The takanos are a joke. The Rabbonim themselves don’t follow them. When a rich person who donates money to them makes a huge wedding, they don’t say a word. They were simply a means for someone to make a small wedding and claim, “I’m following the takanos!” so they wouldn’t feel bad about it. Nobody who can afford more follows them, and nobody says anything to them about it.September 8, 2009 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #659073SJSinNYCMember
I think people who take on debt for their weddings are ridiculous. I just wonder if they would be willing to take out a mortgage for their tuition…September 8, 2009 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #659074RaisedEyebrowMember
the.nurse- unfortunately, the pressure to make a statement is not from the kallah or chosson, but rather from the parents. Parents feel the need to live up to society norms…
However, everything else that gets bought for a kallah e.g. cloths, housewares etc.- that is the pressure of the kallah. If the kallah insists on a lower standard in such items, it would ease the pressure & debt. (I don’t think the kallah has an influence over which hall to choose etc.)September 8, 2009 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #659075
To the nurse: and are your parents planning to support after you get married?
To rwndk1: simple chasunas, beautiful. What about the toll of the apartment?
Takanos are wonderful, but there is another possibly much greater toll on people marrying off their kids that doesn’t get addressed at the same time.September 8, 2009 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #659076Dr. PepperParticipant
When we were planning our sons upsherin we noticed just how high the costs were getting- and that’s for an upsherin! We also had the risk that one of his friends might have a party that outdid his.
Eventually we had enough. We asked some friends and family to help with the baking and we had a small party. We donated all the money we saved to the yeshiva where we brought him to say the Aleph Bais. It saved allot of aggravation and it made us feel good about ourselves. My son had the time of his life anyway.
It gets even better- I asked my employer to match the donation and they did.
What if someone wants to out do us?
Please go right ahead!September 8, 2009 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #659077A600KiloBearParticipant
Refinancing is only an option if you haven’t got the guts to pull off an insurance, mortgage or credit card scam (not that a lot of refinancing before the crisis was much more than a scam anyway with inflated values and careless appraisal).September 8, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #659078
Maybe its because I’m not 19 anymore (though truthfully, I wasn’t that way at 19 either), but I would never ever ask my parents to support me. Growing up, I saw how they always struggled to make ends meet, and it would never cross my mind to have my parents pay for anything for me. B’H I’ve been working for a few years and am able to pay my own bills (though I still live w my parents), and would expect that to continue when I get married.
I think it is really selfish of people to expect their parents to support them after they’re married – unless the parents are very well off and really want to do so. What kind of message to you give your children that way? Live off your parents your whole life? Sorry if this comes out sounding strong, but I feel very strongly about it.
On the other hand, Dr Pepper -that story is beautiful!September 8, 2009 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #659079
the.nurse, many times its the boys side demanding the money, not necesarily the daughtor demanding her parents to support her.September 8, 2009 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #659080
Wherever it’s coming from, the system is predicated on it, either x amount a month for y years, or making up the shortfall to equal a certain amount a month.
(To thenurse: you have any younger sisters? I’ll be dealing with boys in a few years 😉September 8, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #659081
who says her sisters share the same ideals as her? 😉September 9, 2009 2:44 am at 2:44 am #659082
I do have younger sisters but not in the age range you need.. they’re either already in the parsha, or they have a while to go!
Unfortunately, though, it shouldn’t be such a rarity that people think this way. You want to raise kids that think of others before themselves.
And mepal, most of my family does think this way 🙂 (though I don’t know if they are as strong about it as I am)September 9, 2009 6:51 am at 6:51 am #659083
To Tzippi: You are right, the whole buying an apt. here in Eretz Yisrael is not normal, but there are plenty of people (mostly Americans) who manage without it, they either help their kids buy in the Negev or some other cheaper area, or they rent, etc. With that said, wouldn’t you rather spend the money having your kids settled than on a wedding which, as I said in my previous post is not much more than a license to live as man and wife, and ends after a few hours. There are many happily married couples who twenty years later cannot tell you details of their wedding. Unfortunately there are those who twenty years later remember the debt. So if you must live in Brooklyn, follow the Eretz Yisrael style – seudah just for family and a few others, with a buffet (no meat) for those who come later to dance, those who come are truly interested in being mesameach chosson vekallah.September 9, 2009 11:19 am at 11:19 am #659084
The amount of money people spend on simchas can get really crazy. OK if you are rich and have the money to spare thats great but if you are up to your eyeballs in debt don’t take on more. We made a brit last spring for about 1400NIS, everyone said it was very nice.
Remember the wedding lasts 4 hours the marriage will you hope last a lifetime.September 9, 2009 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #659085
rwndk1: let’s say you can make a chasuna in the US for about 10k and that’s still barely within your means. Nothing left for support (or even “helping out to buy something”). This is the reality many people are dealing with. It’s not a matter of doing something simpler and passing the savings on to the kids, the tuition committee, aniyim, etc.September 9, 2009 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #659086
There are many variables in making a chasuna and it’s not fair to generalize. To start, the halacha is; what you do for one child, you must do for the other, unless of course the child is mature enough to be mochel b’lev shalom.
Also, Joseph, let’s say your daughter is matched with a top masmid, everything you also dreamed about, and his parents insist on you making a chasuna in the Grand Prospect for hundreds of people, everything they always dreamed about. Are you going to break the shidduch or sour the relationship over this condition? Tough call, but it happens in various degrees every day.
Remember, a chasuna is not an upsherin or Bar Mitzva where only you call the shots; there may be a minimum of six very important people with ideas that differ from one another on what is important at a chasuna.
Having said that, the Jewish community should take their heads out of the sand and realize that the divorce rate is climbing every year and it’s very likely that the chasuna you’re making won’t last the duration.
A chasuna is over after several hours and one should not mortgage their lives for it.
When funerals became very pricey, Chazal said the cost of dying is more than the cost of living and made a “lo plug”: everyone must make the lowest costing funeral, no exceptions. I think it’s mandatory that our Chazal must get together to make a “lo plug” with teeth in it. We should outdo each other in making chasunas as inexpensive as possible starting with the rich and Rabbanim; no one will feel pressured to outdo them.September 9, 2009 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #659087gavra_at_workParticipant
Not sure why this is any different than refinancing to pay for your son (or son in law) to be in Kollel. I hear it is not uncommon (but don’t know of any actual cases). I do know a person who went into credit card debt (which is worse) to pay for his sons in law to stay in Kollel.
Nebech, but his daughter had her heart set on a Kollel Boy, and he could barely afford it, but she couldn’t get married without it. It was somewhat doable while the economy was running well, but now he is piling up debt, making minimum payments and can’t tell his children to get a job. Nebech.
🙁September 9, 2009 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #659088
You can make a wedding for a lot less than 10K, its just not going to have a lot of people at it. To have a wedding you need
- The couple
- A rabbi
- A kettubah (printed)
- A glass of wine (or grape juice)
- 10 men for a minyan and a small meal for them
Outside the frum world many people get married at city hall, and somehow survive. Now I’m not suggesting that people start going that route but the option is real. There is nothing to say you can’t make a party for 40 instead of 400.September 9, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #659089
Zach Kessin, is peer preasure something new to you?September 9, 2009 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #659090
To Zach Kessin: immediate families can pass the 40 mark, B”H.September 9, 2009 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #659091
Zach Kessin, is peer preasure something new to you?
Is peer pressure a good reason to go severely into debt?
The WolfSeptember 9, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #659092
To Zach Kessin: immediate families can pass the 40 mark, B”H.
Depends how you define “immediate.”
And, in any event, if your immediate (which, in my translation, refers to the parents, grandparents, siblings and children of the people getting married — no cousins, no nieces/nephews) family *does* come to over 40 (which, despite the large families in our communities is still quite rare if you use my definition of “immediate” above) then find somewhere else to cut back (i.e. serve a less elaborate meal, etc.)
The WolfSeptember 9, 2009 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #659093
Wolfish, no! But for that reason people would not make a wedding the way ZK describes.September 9, 2009 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #659094squeakParticipant
I think 40 was an arbitrary number to contrast with 400. Don’t focus on the number. I agree with your definition of immediate but I think that such a solution would have to allow a slightly broader definition. I can easily think of relatives who would be in a fury to not “be allowed” at their favorite uncle or favorite cousin’s wedding.
I think that cherrybim raises a very excellent point. It is easy to say that takanos don’t work because rabbonim and rich people don’t stand behind them. But there is also the aspect of not wanting to cross paths with the mechutanim. Which is exactly why only a lo plug could work.
I truly believe that it would be a very beneficial thing for the askanim and rabbinical leaders of our generation to enact. I hope that they will decide to do so. This is a tzora gedolah for klal yisrael, right up there with tuition (not trying to be funny).
The prevalent argument “It’s the most special day of their life, make it memorable” just doesn’t fly. It should be a special day with or without pomp and ceremony (above what halacha calls for) or we have raised a generation with bad values. It has always been the case that rich people had nicer chasunas (that all the town beggars looked forward to) but apparently that didn’t cause a spillover problem as it does now. So it is still dependent on the wealthy to “take a hit” in this case for the sake of the greater good – the tzibbur.September 9, 2009 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #659095
I understand that no one *wants* to make a wedding like that — but sometimes you have to choose the option that is the lesser of two “evils.” Either you go heavily into debt for what is, in essence, a one day celebration* and have that affect you for years to come, or have a smaller wedding and simply live within your means.
* It’s been my experience that aside from the couple, their immediate relatives and a friend or two that no one remembers individual weddings after a few years anyway — they begin to blur into one in people’s memories.September 9, 2009 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #659096
I think the grandparents (and great) would have nachas seeing a bit more of the family together for such a simcha. I know of families with ka”h 100+ first cousins (just from one side) so they have their own guidelines that work for them (e.g.only kids over a certain age).September 9, 2009 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #659097
I think the grandparents (and great) would have nachas seeing a bit more of the family together for such a simcha.
I’m sure that they would. And, were it economically feasible to accommodate them, I would say go ahead and do so. But does it pay to go into debt for years for that?
The WolfSeptember 9, 2009 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #659098
Wolf, I’ll try having that in mind when I get to that point (marrying off my kids, that is).September 9, 2009 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #659099feivelParticipant
the second Chasuna that i gave,
the florist forgot to bring the Chuppah/aisle flowers.
no one noticed, including the Kallah and both mothers
(until the florist came to apologize during the meal)September 10, 2009 6:15 am at 6:15 am #659100
Of course I am familar with peer pressure, but I am also an adult who is willing to say no when I have to. I realize that there are many things people want out of a wedding, but sometimes you have to look at what you want and what you can afford and make hard choices.
From what I can see peer pressure in the frum community means being broke and in debt. No thank you.September 10, 2009 7:11 am at 7:11 am #659101
To Cherrybim, sorry a ben Torah is not just about a masmid, although thank G-d I have not yet had the nisayon, if the other side is willing to break off a shidduch because the kallahs side does not wish to have a wedding with sold gold spoons, etc. then this is not a shidduch I would like to get involved in, remember the apple does not fall far from the tree and the character of the parents says something about the child as well – not his Torah hasmada but character. Secondly, if they are embarrassed at a simple wedding, I will counter that I am a simple Jew who will be greatly embarrassed by having a fancy wedding – why can’t the rich people understand where we are coming from and I am only expected to understand their position? I am sure if you are dealing with reasonable people then a compromise can be worked out. Yes, there are things you have to give in to keep the peace but not to put yourself in insurmountable debt for the rest of your life.September 10, 2009 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #659102anon for thisParticipant
feivel, at my wedding there were no flowers except for the bouquet I carried, and silk flower table centerpieces rented from a local chessed organization. I did not feel any lack either.September 10, 2009 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #659103
rwndk1: What are you going to say to your Ben Torah kollel masmid chasan who wants a $2000 watch or your beautiful Bais Yaakov balas chesed size 3 tznniusdik t’hillim sayer kallah who wants a $3000+ sheitel?
Everyone’s a big talker until put in the position.September 10, 2009 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #659104
rwndk1: What are you going to say to your Ben Torah kollel masmid chasan who wants a $2000 watch or your beautiful Bais Yaakov balas chesed size 3 tznniusdik t’hillim sayer kallah who wants a $3000+ sheitel?
I don’t see why this is so difficult.
If the future son-in-law or daughter-in-law are reasonable people, you should be able to explain to them that it’s beyond the budget.
If they are not reasonable, then do you should have your son/daughter examine whether or not they really want to marry them.
And if they’re shallow enough to call off the wedding because you can’t get them a $2K watch or a $3K sheitel, then you’re better off without them anyway.
The WolfSeptember 10, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #659105JosephParticipant
A true Ben Torah doesnt insist on a 2000 watch, and a true Balas Chesed doesnt insist on a 3000 shaitel. Au contraire. They will insist otherwise.September 10, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #659106
As a side point to Joseph’s comment, I don’t understand this whole concept of demanding *anything* from one’s in-laws — whether it be gifts or monetary support.
The WolfSeptember 10, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #659107
I agree with joseph. Saying someone is a true Ben Torah but insists on a $2k watch is a contradiction in itself.September 10, 2009 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #659108
I would say that a young couple needs to learn to live within their means and to make a budget. There is no magic money tree out there (Or if there is I’ve sure not found it). You can tell time just as well with a $20 watch and a woman can cover her hair with a scarf or hat (which my wife does).
The frum community has got to stop living like millionaires. That means starting with what can we afford and not what do we want.September 10, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #659109
Joseph and others: I of course agree with all of you, but reality is reality.
What ever happened to Rav Aaron’s Lakewood?
Yes, B”H we have many exceptions, but yeshivos aren’t giving courses in or advocating “Be considerate to your in-law’s pocketbook”.September 10, 2009 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #659110
Zach: Where do you get off wearing a $20 watch! Mine is an $11 Casio, Century 21.September 10, 2009 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #659111neatfreakMember
I recently got married. We had the cheapest wedding that the hall has ever made aside from the rabbiem discount weddings and it was beautiful. i am now working part time and in school mostly at nights to support my husband and myself. my parents foot our cell phone bill- which is about $30-35 a month added to the family plan. other then that we do everything ourselves. We plan to stay in learning as long as possible and are both very realistic about life and such things. From when i got back from sem i had to pay for everything myself aside from food and phones- so getting bills is no new concept. b”h my parents raised me to be aware of money and such things and neither myself or my husband are much inclined to spending frivilously.September 13, 2009 9:26 am at 9:26 am #659112
Also remember if you refinance your house and can’t make the payments the bank can and will come and take away your house. And if what they sell it for won’t cover what you owe they can come after you for that as well. So be very careful!
Making a fancy wedding you can’t afford is so not a good way to loose your house!September 13, 2009 10:43 am at 10:43 am #659113lesschumrasParticipant
For my daughter’s wedding, we ( and the in-laws )made a budget and stuck to it. Her gown was rented ( for $400 ) from a woman who rented gowns as a business to support her husband in kolel. My daughter didn’t see the need to have her parents spend thousands on a dress she would only wear once.
I haven’t said this in a long time but I agree with Joseph. A true Ben Torah would tell the in-laws to use that $2000 towards supporting him in kolel.
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