Reformed Are Jews?

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  • #1555794

    Avi K
    Participant

    JD, I do not know how true that is today. Paradoxically, when non-Jewish clubs started to accept Jews and restrictive covenants went out the window Jews became less Jewish culturally. This opened the door to intermarriage as people no longer perceived that there was a difference. I think that his is also true of other white ethnic groups. At one time an italian would only marry an Italian, etc. Now this is not so true. Moreover, many non-Jews have such a positive view of Jews that they seek Jewish spouses. On one secular Jewish dating site 5% of the member are open about not being Jewish.

    #1555846

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not true that intermarrage does not occur in other groups

    There are plenty of famous bi-racial people . Barak Obama, Derek Jeter , Bill DiBlasio’s Children.

    I saw somewhere that about 40% of asian women marry non-asian men (Yes some of them are jewish like Zuckerberg)

    #1556030

    icemelter
    Participant

    I said mostly

    #1556054

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Ice – you’ve been living on an island. The historical story has been, the longer an ethnic group has been in the US the more likely they are to marry “out.” In the past, new groups of immigrants were stigmatized, looked down on, and not considered quite good enough. As they go through a few generations, acquire flawless English and get their own quotas of doctors, lawyers and congress reps, they become normalized and considered acceptable. We’ve just gotten to that point on the trajectory. The newer groups are still insular, but as time passes they will be more accepted, move into neighborhoods where they aren’t threatened, and blend in. We need to offer people more than “Don’t marry out, it means that Hitler won!” or “Non-Jews are horrible and Reform/Conservative not much better.” We need to show people the meaning and beauty of Yiddishkeit to create a positive attraction.

    BTW, calling people names and ridiculing them doesn’t do much to attract them, as opposed to saying, “We’ve got something great – come and check it out!”

    #1556063

    icemelter
    Participant

    Midwest- most Hispanics marry within their own, most blacks marry within their own, most Indians marry within their own, most Asians marry within their own, whites marry whites, Russians marry Russians and many others. The reason is they are attracted to their type because there is much more in common than outside their circles. Usually mixed marriages can have extra conflict due to different cultures.
    Of course there are many exceptions. Especially since most become Americanized, but the issue isn’t whether they speak English or identify with being American. Even after all that many still feel a closeness to their culture and appreciate those values. Going out with all cultures doesn’t count obviously when they date they don’t care what the background is. If they marry they might not care either, but usually they care more.
    And just because you know of cases where chinese women marry white guys, it does not mean that the majority is like that. Actually quite the contrary. If you go into specific ethnic areas you will see majority stay within their own culture. And that is what the majority is, not the scattered exceptions to that.
    All I’m saying is aside for religion, it is more natural for people to marry within their own culture at least the majority. So why should it be any different when it comes to reform or secular Jews who actually believe that the aim should be to marry non Jews?

    #1556120

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Stats prove you wrong, 36% of Asian women marry outside, 12% of Asian Men (because Asian Women are seen to be as more desireable) 24% of Black men marry outside 9% of Black Women (Again because of desireability). latino intermarriage is also on the rise as well

    Intermarriage rates will continue to rise as taboos with interacial marrage fall. There is still some stigma for a white person to marry a black person which is part of the reason its not higher, but it will change as there are famous celebrities invovled in interacial marriages

    #1556130

    icemelter
    Participant

    zahava- again those stats are outside of ethnic neighborhoods. If you go to each individual polish,russian,spanish,black,white,asian,italian,greek, etc. neighborhoods, im sure youll find the stats to be even lower.

    #1556179

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    When a jew marries out, your talking about his religion. When a non jew marries out , usually it means out of his race or ethnicity. Theres no comparison whatsoever.

    #1556204

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most people in the US do not stay in their neighborhoods, they are alot more mobile. Once they become more “american” the assimilate faster

    Alot of inter-dating begins in such places like colleges where people are more mixed up

    #1556227

    Joseph
    Participant

    Jews are a race/ethnicity too, takes2.

    #1556228

    Joseph
    Participant

    zd: Exactly what do you mean when you say “desireability”?

    #1556280

    icemelter
    Participant

    Joseph-probably better not to know

    #1556288

    Mammele
    Participant

    Joseph: we are both a religion and a race, however we accept outsiders, i.e. Kosher converts, to be fully Jewish. And when an Ashkenazi marries a Sefardi I think no one (or at least no one in the CR) considers it marrying out. I believes Take2’s point was that we are not racially motivated when we decry intermarriage, yet in the none Jewish world if one is against marrying someone from a different race, it’s likely stemming from racism – or will at least be perceived as such.

    On the flip side many people, especially liberals, want to be perceived as open-minded so they might davka seek out someone from another race (Diblasio comes to mind although I have no clue as to his motivations).

    #1556379

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unfortunatly many Charedim will not marry Sephardim or even Dati Leumi/MO. They will only marry other charedim from their own circles

    I dont think Ive ever even heard of a Yeshivish person marrying a Chassidish person

    In israel you Sephardim are marrying Ashkenazim all the time and its erasing the lines between them (In the US there are alot less sephardim compared to Ashkenazim so there is pull to Ashkenazic, but only because of numbers

    #1556566

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Are there any comparable ethnoreligious groups that allow in people born on the outside and do not allow intermarriage?

    #1556589

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most religious groups when there is an intermarriage allow fast conversions, Like Muslims, there is no intermarriage with muslims because they simply convert the non-muslims partner (even if they really dont believe)

    I think generally christians take a similar stance, however in recent yeats when there is an intermarriage they dont force anyone to convert (Dont kid yourself while we might think Methodists and Catholics are the same christians, they do not think the same, A methodist marrying an Catholic is a terrible thing in both sides eyes)

    #1557244

    tiawd
    Participant

    I think the claim that most non-frum Jews in America today are goyim is exaggerated. Most American Jews haven’t been in the country more than four or five generations and it’s not hard to trace back to an ancestor who was Jewish in Europe. If someone’s mother’s mother’s mother etc. was considered Jewish in 1880 when they came to America, we can assume that they are also Jewish, no matter how assimilated. The Jews who were in America pre-Civil War are almost all completely assimilated today and don’t even consider themselves Jewish, even if they have Jewish last names. But someone who considers themself Jewish very likely is, or if their mother converted they would know that.

    #1557437

    Shulem Lemmer
    Participant

    I heard a chassidic tale where a rebbe said to a group of secular Jews that were discussing what a Jew is, ” That a Jew is a Jew.”

    #1558371

    knaidlach
    Participant

    בנים אתם לה’ אלקיכם….refers to every single jew. אהבתי אתכם אמר ה’ refers to every single yid. when mashiach comes no jew will be left behind (befairushe song), not as by יציאת מצריםץ

    #1559215

    shimen
    Participant

    ice melter7/6 1 22 am
    yes, plenyt can trace to avrohom, yitzchok etc including my family
    alsp one can trace to to holy gedolim who are know like rashi,
    mabe you cant. also the rest of your post is full of ignorance but to long retort
    and let us worry about the ‘3 weeks’
    when one points out someones fallacies or desecration of taryag it is not hate, sinas chinom anti kiruv.
    the problem is with the one who wont face the truth. if one will play baseball with oblong ball 6 bases 5 players and we will point out its not baseball youll cry hate ,sinas chinon, tinok shenishba , intolerant etc etc?

    #1559238

    icemelter
    Participant

    Shimen”yes, plenyt can trace to avrohom, yitzchok etc including my family
    alsp one can trace to to holy gedolim who are know like rashi,
    mabe you cant”

    -pshh what a chashuve yid, surely you are expecting us all to bow down to you? You mention the 3 weeks but seem to know nothing about it.

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