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Regarding kol Yisrael areivim ze ba ze, does this include Liberal jews,reform jews, conservative jews(not politically), jews by name only, who are so distant from Judaism and who are even proactively against it and have less pride in their Judaism than goyim? How can we be responsible for “jews” who hate their culture,religion, and roots or who are so distant that they have practically nothing to do with judaism? They intermarry, believe in intermarriage, have a goyish culture and values, etc.
I am not saying that I blame anyone for their upbringing or the family in which they were born to. But its such an issue that it seems out of control. There are so many Jews in America (and the world) in which only a tiny fraction are actually frum. From hollywood producers,actors,corporate business, politicians, or any other average marty or barbara, how is it even fair to be held accountable when these people are just so out of reach?It is a real shame how many Jews we lost and are constantly losing due to intermarriages and abandonment of Judaism. Is there anything we can do to help this matter? I know we all have what to work on ourselves and our “frumkeit” before challenging others, but thats not what this is about. The fact that we are “ערבים זה בזה” means that we do need to care and try to help better each other.
It is no secret that most jews are liberals and also involved in many things that cause a massive chilul Hashem. But its almost as if we dont count them as jews since they are so far from the Mainstream Orthodox Jewish values that it seems impossible to knock any sense into them. They speak out against Jews and against Israel (whether its right or wrong), its just very difficult to feel as if they are part of us.
Can anything be done?Maybe if we start realizing that Republicans and Democrats both do not represent Torah values, political differences won’t matter as much.
Some are literally non-jew because they amd their parents marry non-jews. Some have a status of a non-jew. There’s nothing to be done about them. If they had full control of the US govt, yeshivas would be banned. Their religion is to be far left
כל ישראל ערבים זה לזה. When your friends keep the Torah.
It only applies to Torah observant Jews.
Maybe we have a responsibility to daven for them to see the light אתה חונן לאדם דעת.
Davening only applies if they are a תנוק שנשבה, captured in their youth coming from a reformed family. My mother came from such a family and my father changed her becoming G-d fearing and G-d trusting.
We say both “השבינו אבינו לתורתיך” and “ולמלשינים אל תהי תקווה וכל הרשעה כרגע יאבדו.
“It is a real shame how many Jews we lost and are constantly losing due to intermarriages and abandonment of Judaism.”
You can thank your Jewish brother Mark Zuckerberg owner of Facebook who has caused thousands upon thousands of intermarriages and divorces
A fairly high percentage of non-Orthodox Jews are actually goyim with Jewish ancestors. While there might have gotten them in trouble with the Nazis, from our perspective they are 100% goyim. Since it has been over two centuries since the non-Torah movements in Judaism began, we should be dubious of the yichus (meaning in this case, “Jewishness”) of any non-Orthodox Jews and regard them as safek Jews (meaning that while we can’t ask them to do work for us on Shabbos, we don’t want them touching non-mevulshal wine, etc.; while we should feel obligatged to bury them, we wouldn’t want our kids to marry their kids). There are also shailohs since many hold that their marriages were valid, but their divorces weren’t, and children of remarriages are mamzerim.
Of course if they do Tseuvah, being safek goy, safek mamzer is not so bad, since they can quickly and easily convert and rejoin klal Yisrael.
I taught this past year at a Reform Temple and won’t continue. I can compromise all the energy I have to try to be “neutral” with their ways and understandings of Judaism, but it truly became impossible. First, (as some others here pointed out) several students were not Jewish (because of an non-Jewish mother)- so they wouldn’t even be allowed alone in a room with a non-mevushal bottle of wine. Second, I kept my politics to my self, but EVERYTHING about that Reform Temple and their clergy is about politics- one way or another. Whether it’s regarding feminism (even though I found it discriminatory that their Temple’s “Rabbi”, Cantor, president, and school leadership were all women, with not one male), or opening our homes and our lives to the disadvantaged one (LGBTQ) and fully open borders (since we were once slaves in Egypt), and being “fair” to Israel and the Palestinians. I’m still not sure how since Yosef Avinu was a stranger in the land, why we must open our homes for LGBTQ non-documented immigrants? Many students told me that religion is something nice to believe in and something to study as an academia, but they don’t believe in the Torah or in a G-D. Third, their entire fiber is falling apart, regarding their school enrollment numbers, their membership, their donations, etc. They blame the low school enrollment on social media and cellphones (but somehow neighboring Frum shuls and yeshivas in neighboring Bergen Co are excelling).
Concluding, I don’t believe they have a future, I don’t believe they are or want to be part of what Judaism has to offer.
There’s a book that addresses this very question: “One People? : Tradition, Modernity, and Jewish Unity”, by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks.
Although he’s an intelligent, well-educated orthodox Jew and Rabbi, his writing style is verbose and hard for me to understand, so I can’t state exactly what his conclusions are. But he seems to be in favor of inclusion, as opposed to exclusion or pluralism.
For example, look at the book “Our crowd” written by a secular Jew totally uninterested in halacha. The book has a totally unrelated purpose, And then check how many of the families mentioned (who came to the United States before the American Civil War) were intermarried. Furthermore, due to the American custom of women adopting the husband’s surname, it means that the people with “Jewish” names are the least likely to be Jewish.
Among Eastern European Jews, the movement towards assimilation began only in the late 19th century, so it is easier to trace.
How many “Reform” Jews are motivated by ideology is questionable. In a typical Reform “Temple” there is a small inner-circle of ideological “Reform”, and a large number of “twice-a-year” types whose motivation is a desire to have an unburdened Jewish affiliation. If you do not county the nominal Reform as part of Reform, i.e. base the estimate of who is a non-assimilated Jew on who engages in some form of Jewish religious life on a daily basis, then instead of Reform and Conservative dominating American Jewry (the conventional analysis based on synagogue memebers and “high holiday” attendance) you end up with Orthodox Jews (all of whom engage in “Jewish” activities daily even if only making a bracha or wearing distinctive clothes) as the overwhelming majority of American Jews.
Most non-Orthodox Jews in America perceive themselves as Americans and have little interest or knowledge of Yiddishkeit. From all perspectives, political, social, ecnomical and increasingly genetic, they are a distinct people from the frum community. The split is largely complete. Asking what to do about assimilation today makes no more sense that asking what to do about the holocaust — it’s done, it’s over, its history, and we need to live with the consequences.
Concluding, I don’t believe they [the Reform movement] have a future, I don’t believe they are or want to be part of what Judaism has to offer.
On the contrary, they will probably survive because they “evolve” to match whatever their membership want. It’s called “leading from behind”.
Of course there is a lot that we can do! Step one is to not post ridicoulos discussion such as these for all the world to see. If you have ever spoken to non-frum Jews (i suspect many commenters here have not) you will hear a major fallacy circulated that frum Jews do not consider them Jewish. If you actually believe this (like that Moron MK Azoulai) you know nothing about Yidishkeit. For all those in this coffee room that say “kol yisrael arievim…” only applies to frum Jews, would you also say
You can not be yotzei a non-frum Jew in kidush?
If a non frum Jew is drowning would you save him?
There is no such concept as Teshuva?
The list goes on
It is true that many who consider themselves as Jews may not be halachicly Jewish. But many if not most are.
A Jew is a Jew is a Jew
Hitler Y’M knew that. It is about time we do too.Who is a Jew? That question keeps coming up in every generation in this country. The answer is simple: a Jewish mother or a kosher conversion. I doubt if there are any non-frum Jews today who are not tinokot shenishbah. The generations who started Reform and Conservative are long gone, and even their rabbis these days were brought up in ignorance. Obviously they couldn’t be a halachically valid witness, and their status regarding wine is something you would have to discuss with your own rav, but Jewish they are. And those of us who were born frum or were able to make teshuva should thank HaShem, not boast about it as kochi v’otzem yadi.”
Yes, there are serious yichus problems, but they have to be investigated on an individual level. How can we possibly appeal to the non-frum to join us if we keep calling them “goyim” and other choice words? This thread is unspeakably offensive to baalei teshuva who are being told that their Reform, Conservative or unaffiliated parents aren’t Jewish. (This also poses a logical problem, if the Reform parents “aren’t Jewiish” how can their child be Jewish and able to make teshuvah?”
And please, people, remember it’s the Three Weeks and the reason we cry on Tisha B’Av is because of how we treat each other (including the poor souls who don’t even know what Tisha B’Av is).
RebYid23 “Maybe if we start realizing that Republicans and Democrats both do not represent Torah values, political differences won’t matter as much.”
Exactly. For some excellent articles on this go to cross-currents.com and check some of the articles by Rabbi Avi Shafran. He’s the official spokesperson for Agudath Israel of America and also writes op-ed articles on frum life and outlook.
Icemelter-why do you say they hate Judaism? Can I say that you hate quantum physics or you just don’t know enough about it and that makes you distant? Additionally if someone practices Judaism differently than you and has different ideas about what Judaism believes it is not bec. they hate it. They have just never been educated as to what Judaism has taught for millennia and why it is illogical that the principles of Judaism are subject to change. Our enemies are not Reform & Conservative Judaism and certainly NOTReform & Conservative Jews. Our enemies are ignorance and apathy.
My purpose in commenting is so that perhaps all of those Reform & Conservative Jews reading this will realize that many Orhtodox Jews do not hate them. We love them and want to discuss with them what they are missing out onYou Orthodox are some deep stinking haters when it comes to the reform movement. Reform jews should create their own country and have no contact with you haters.
Very simple answer: the Reform movement is not a legitimate form of Judaism. However, at least 60% of the members in these congregations are halachically Jewish. We should never give up hope that they do teshuva, however we can also NEVER work together with them in any way or show ‘unity’ to the outside world with these people chas v’sholom. There is no such thing as achdus with people who deny the Torah, even if they might be tinokei shenishba. Sure, many of their members are tinokei shenishba, but their leaders who are spreading apikorsus to the masses have a LOT to answer for if they make it up to shomayim.
Let’s all remember that it’s the Three Weeks and we have to be careful that even when we disagree that we show respect for other people, Jewish or not, frum or not.
And remember that after Tisha B’Av comes Ellul, and then Yom HaDin.
Many chassidim are reformers in thier own way. Its just that they wear the chasidish levush that lets them get away with many reform minhagim!. This is one of the reasons the vilnah goan was so opposed to them.
@CTRebbe I’ve read teshuvos from chashuve poskim who disagree with some of your assumptions. I don’t necessarily agree with them though, as other poskim who I usually follow argue.
In any event your statement about being motzi them in kiddush is misleading. You don’t need arvus to be motzi others. Only if you were already yotzi do you need arvus to be motzi. So when you make kiddush for the first time, you can be motzi them even if they aren’t subject to arvus (yes I know about the MA and bring yotzi kiddush with Maariv; the MB and AH argue vehemently against it).
Also teshuva is irrelevant to the discussion. Even if certain “club benefits” don’t apply to them, they’re still obligated in the Torah, which last I checked included teshuva.
I love all people Jews and not Jews. I also love the reformed but let’s stop pretending that they are Jewish. They are Jewish only in their own minds. I suggest everyone read the article by the reformed rabbi Clifford Librach in response to the speech by Michael chabon.
A: There are also shailohs since many hold that their marriages were valid, but their divorces weren’t, and children of remarriages are mamzerim.
B: again can’t that be the case with anyone? Who knows what happened down the line?Although it is possible for there to be an unknown issue with someone’s yichus,
we assume everything was done properly because those involved were part of
the observant community which usually handles these matters properly.
The same cannot be assumed when the people in question were known
not to have been observant.Besalel, halacha, not someone’s actions or beliefs, determines whether they are Jewish.
(In case people don’t know, Mr. Chabon recently gave a speech to graduating Reform rabbis
in which (among other topics) he spoke out against the idea of marrying other Jews.)There is a difference between reform Judaism and reform jews
A Jew who sins remains a Jew (Sanhedrin 44a). Rav Soloveichik, in Five Derashot explains that there are two aspects to Jewishness: the national aspect (haberit ben habeitarim), which is not connected to free choice and the religious aspect (berit Horev), which is. In fact, we see that a secular Jew today will scream if someone contends that he is not Jewish.
As for the O.P.’s question, Rav Kook explains (Al HaKefira that kefira has its source in some lack among observant Jews. In fact, the Chafetz Chaim once commented that if a Jew in Vilna puts down his Gemara to early a Jew in Paris (then a secular bastion) will eat pork. Thus there is areivut.
As for children of non-Jewish mothers, while they are not halachically Jewish some mekubbalim say that there is an inyan to bring them back. The work of Rav Eliahu Avichail and of Michael Freund’s “Shavei Yisrael” is well-known.
Avi K – good post. And it’s not just Rav Soloveichik who hold that way. I’ve heard the same opinion many times over the years from many sources. This “They’re not even Jewish” business is something that’s fairly new, and only seems to have gained popularity with the current “us vs them” mentality that’s crept into our speech in the last 2-3 decades.
Maybe those of us who are frum should be properly grateful that we were born into/joined the ranks of the Torah observant, and not been stuck in some place where we never had a chance to learn Torah. It’s not kochi v’otzem yadi that brought us here, it was the kindness of HaShem.
Midwest2 Kiruv professionals would strongly disagree with your statement.
Congratulations to RebYidd23: You said something with which I agree. What could be smarter?
To jakob: Has intermarriage increased since the commencement of Facebook? I don’t know, but I know intermarriage was growing for many, many years before Zuckerberg gave us Facebook. Before you blame Zuckerberg, or anybody else, check your facts, and cite them when you publish your accusation.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe teaches that a Jew is someone with a Jewish soul that Hashem breathes into him/her every day. (This view is not unique to the Lubavitcher Rebbe.) A non-observant Jew, even an anti-semitic Jew, is nevertheless a Jew. A Jewish woman married to a goy gives birth to Jews. Some of the attitudes of antagonism toward non-observant on display here are not promoting Yiddishkeit among the non-observant and are in fact destructive, not to mention breaches of many mitzvos. The Lubavitchers have a lot to teach us about strengthening Yiddishkeit and the practice of Torah Judaism.
title=”No Future”
To WallyKnowll:
I can’t even imagine a separate “Jewish” country — or ANY country — run by Reform Jews, who are highly individualistic, let alone alienated, even from each other. If you are religiously indifferent, chances are you will be indifferent to traditional structures like family, community, nation, etc. The star of the show is you. You will have no loyalty to any country or ideology. Rather, you will want to live in a society that will leave you alone to do your own thing (and even support you, if you’re a Socialist).
Reform and Conservative Judaism (and even Zionism) might have “worked” back in the day when the outside world was separatist and anti-Semitic, and Jewishness was considered ethnic, not religious, identity. Back them, goyim were in a closed world, and the only way for a Jew to enter was conversion to Christianity. These liberal Jewish movements appealed to Jews wanting to westernize while keeping a toehold on their heritage.
My parents, whose own parents were among the huge wave of East European immigrants in the early 20th century, married Jewish, because it was still the norm. Jews stuck together. Although my parents strove to assimilate, it was only up to a point. Intermarriage was taboo.
Nowadays, that it no longer the case. The boundaries have eroded. There is no incentive for non-observant Jews to marry each other, let alone stay in the fold. In fact, the secular even resent organized religion, which is seen as a barrier to personal fulfillment.
I don’t “hate” non-Orthodox Jews (my family still is). But I see the obstacles as far as dealing with their mentality. Hopefully some will discover and appreciate their heritage. But those who don’t will NEVER form their own society. They have none. They don’t want to follow or respect anything — unless it’s feminism, LGBT (who pretty much dominate the liberal movements at this point).
Even the State of Israel will eventually follow that direction, as secular Jews will find little incentive to stay there.
MaidofCH are you Chabad? because the Lubavicher Rebbe would never talk that way. He welcomed all jews of all stripes
Intermarriage exploded when it became acceptable for non-jews to marry jews
Given that both Trump and Clinton allowed their daughters to marry jews, that taboo is gone
Anybody remember the film “Gentlemen’s Agreement?” It’s from the 40s and anti-Semitism is the major theme. Yes, the taboo against marrying a Jew was strong (even if the Jew converted out), but it does seem to be gone if you’re not a white supremacist. Although at one time it was a status symbol for a successful secular Jew to have a blonde, WASP wife, from what I’ve seen the real driver is simply that people haven’t been raised with a real sense of Jewishness, and then go out in to the world where they study, work and hang out with non-Jews. I was asked by the mother of a high school friend who had married “out” what she had done wrong. I asked a few questions and confirmed that the family had done nothing “Jewish” to speak of since my friend’s bar mitzvah.
For the longest time the only serious argument against intermarriage in secular circles was, “It would mean Hitler won.” Now the involvement with Israel is being weakened by some of the current government’s policies, so the enthusiasm that lingered from the Six-Day War and the Gulf Wars has drained away. The Conservative and some Reform aren’t going to fade away any time soon, so it might be nice if we developed a friendlier attitude, not to them as anti-halachic systems, but to the individuals who identify, instead of calling them names and insinuating that they’re not really Jews.
Midwest2, the reality is that a large percentage of the Reform and Conservative communities are simply not Jewish.
akuperma is referring to something much more modern, or much more small town. I come from a big city where my public school classes were almost all Jewish. My teachers were almost all Jewish as well. My parents come from a Jewish neighborhood, and it was more Jewish then. My grandparents even more so, and if you go to my great-grandparents, forget about it. Finding a non-Jew in the neighborhoods of 3 of those generations would’ve had the same odds as winning the lottery. Everyone in my line is Jewish, as well as all of my ancestors neighbors.
Neighborhoods were much more balkanized in ethnicity than they are today.Conversely, in small southern towns. There was and is some mixing, but it was still not the norm. Southern history shows that Jews would send their kids from all corners of the state to meet each other and get married. It was not an impossible chore as it is today to not mix.
Lastly, I claim akuperma’s post about how all non-orthodox Jews should be considered goys is wrong for one more reason. I never even really heard of this whole intermarriage deal in any really serious manner until I I moved to what’s supposed to be a state with a lot of Jews and I started meeting tons of people who claimed to be “half-Jewish”. I’ve never heard of that one growing up.
There wasn’t much chance of mixing as there is in the last few decades. If all of your neighbors and classmates are Jewish, you’ll probably marry Jewish. If you can’t find any Jews around because everyone scatters, the kids probably won’t marry that way.
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