Refuting the liberal claims about the tragedy.

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  • #597963
    mdd
    Member

    Feif Un, claims that it is bloodthirsty to want the death penalty in a case such as this.

    He is wrong. After the Ma’ase of pilegesh be’Givah, 11 shvatim fought against shevet Binyomin to execute the criminals, who were not liable to the death penalty according to the regular guidelines. It was a case of migdar milsa. Hoshea ha’Navi and Chazal said they were right.

    Charliehall brought up the old liberal canard (and statistics to back it up) that the death penalty does not deter crime.

    He is wrong. The Torah says to execute criminals to scare others. It is common sense, also. What about the statistics? The answer is simple. In the states where the death penalty exists, it is applied very seldom and after a long wait — it is not enough to scare criminals.

    #786597
    Droid
    Member

    Exactly, mdd. If even one State would automatically execute ALL convicted murderers, not give a judge or jury the option to consider “extenuating circumstances”, we can then start looking at statistics.

    #786598
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Would a beis din apply the death penalty in the particular situation under discussion? Eidim? Hasrah? Right wing or left wing, the case that began the discussion, would there be a psak misa by a beis din given the circumstances?

    #786600
    basket of radishes
    Participant

    Please END your confusion. The movement against the Death Penalty is NOT A LIBERAL MOVEMENT. It is a PACIFIST movement. This is like comparing Trees to Picket Fences.

    #786602
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BS”D

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/unbeliveable-reaction-to-the-grossman-verdict

    At least Feif Un is consistent.

    Bais Din would not have executed him either (no Aidim). And killing as a deterent is only if “Shechichi”, so that others shouldn’t do it. That is not the case here.

    I think 600K said it the best yesterday. Prison justice will take care of it.

    #786603
    Health
    Participant

    The Goyim should seek the death penalty in a case of circumstantial murder. Over here he is a Yid, R’ Moshe Zt’l held the US can’t have jurisdiction over a Yid, so therefore even though the Torah holds there should be two Dinim, one for a Goy and one for a Yid, this wouldn’t sit well with them for obvious reasons. So therefore he said -noone in the US should get the death penalty!

    #786604
    Pac-Man
    Member

    This is what Rav Moshe wrote to the Governor of New York to encourage the implementation of the then proposed death penalty for first degree murder –

    As a consequence of these two factors there were almost no Jewish murderers because of the awareness of the severity of the prohibition of murder and because they were educated by means of the Torah and the punishments of the Torah to understand the seriousness of the crime. They were not simply afraid of punishment in the sense of getting caught but were afraid of the crime itself.

    #786605
    Pac-Man
    Member
    #786606
    Health
    Participant

    Joe – I don’t know if you are coming to argue with me or not.

    #786607
    deiyezooger
    Member

    Pac-Man, I saw the tsuvah (before this story) I dont think it mentions which governor or what state. I’m just wondering what makes you say it was the governor of NY. (not that it makes a difrence in this conversation, its just that upon reading this tshuvah I wondered which governor it was that turned to R’ Moshe to seek daas torah on this topic).

    #786608
    Pac-Man
    Member

    deiyezooger: R. D. Eidensohn, author of the Yad Moshe index to the Igros Moshe, wrote on his site that this teshuva was addressed to the Governor of New York, in a letter Rav Moshe wrote to encourage NY to implement a death penalty.

    #786609
    yonah65
    Member

    The beys din could not give a sentence of death in this case, so the retribution will come from H’ and it will come about that the murderer will be killed by another murderer.

    #786610
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Charliehall brought up the old liberal canard (and statistics to back it up) that the death penalty does not deter crime.

    He is wrong. The Torah says to execute criminals to scare others. It is common sense, also. What about the statistics? The answer is simple. In the states where the death penalty exists, it is applied very seldom and after a long wait — it is not enough to scare criminals.”

    You have absolutely no data to indicate that would work to reduce the murder rate either.

    I am currently visiting a country that abolished its death penalty in 1981. Its murder rate is about 70% lower than that in the United States.

    “The Goyim should seek the death penalty in a case of circumstantial murder.”

    The gemara and Rambam disagree.

    #786611
    Droid
    Member

    You have absolutely no data to indicate that would work to reduce the murder rate either.

    You don’t need any statistics or data when, like mdd pointed out, the Torah itself specifically tells you the death penalty is a deterrent to future potential murders.

    #786612
    Health
    Participant

    Charlie – “The gemara and Rambam disagree.”

    Name them. And if you’re talking about once where you quoted something about one witness in a Goyish court, that witness only makes it into circumstantial evidence!

    #786613
    mosheemes2
    Member

    I’m genuinely curious if anyone here, regardless of their general views on the death penalty, actually thinks it would have worked to deter the crime committed here. Unless we’re missing a tremendous amount of information, that just seems impossible for me to believe.

    #786614
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Name them.”

    Sanhedrin 57a, and Rambam Hilchot Melachim 9:14 require an eyewitness to the crime.

    If there are examples in Chazal or Rishonim who allow a non-Jewish court to execute without an eyewitness, please name them.

    #786615
    Pac-Man
    Member

    If every convicted murderer was executed within 24 hours of conviction (as Beis Din does), yes, there most emphatically would be a humongous deterrent that would stop many murders.

    #786616
    charliehall
    Participant

    “it would have worked to deter the crime committed here”

    In our desire for justice, we lose sight of the fact that it is impossible to stop every single murderer, just as it is impossible to stop every single terrorist attack. There is just no way to stop a single deranged individual who wants to do evil and doesn’t let anyone else know what he is doing. Even Singapore, which has probably the most draconian and certain “justice” in the world still has a few homicides a year.

    #786617
    mosheemes2
    Member

    That did not answer my question at all. It would also kill a large number of innocent people, but that’s totally besides the point.

    #786618
    mosheemes2
    Member

    Charlie,

    That’s not really the point. If you’re arguing for deterrence, so long as the system worked (killed murderers and kept innocent people alive at some acceptable ratio) imperfect deterrence would still be ok. It’s just to use this case for that argument is not just arguing by example, it’s arguing from an example that actually suggests the opposite.

    #786619
    charliehall
    Participant

    IIRC, Rav Ahron Soloveichik z’tz’l held that Noachide Courts are only permitted to administer a death penalty at a time that the Sanhedrin is able to administer a death penalty. When Gov. Pataki was considering reinstating the death penalty, Rav Soloveichik was quoted as saying that if the governor acted on the death penalty, he would be the leader of a “bloody government”.

    #786620
    charliehall
    Participant

    “If you’re arguing for deterrence, so long as the system worked (killed murderers and kept innocent people alive at some acceptable ratio) imperfect deterrence would still be ok.”

    There really isn’t much evidence that death penalties deter much of anything. It certainly didn’t deter Martin Grossman.

    And in any case, the secular legal system is biased towards protecting the innocent. It is better to let nine guilty people go free than to convict a single innocent person. In fact even with these safeguards there are numerous cases of people being convicted and given death sentences for crimes they did not permit. And the Torah goes much further than does the secular legal system in trying to avoid unjust death sentences.

    #786621

    Rabbi Avigdor Miller, z’tl, held strongly and said time after time that the death penalty is a strong deterrent to murder. he also said many times that the best rehabilitation for a murderer is the electric chair.

    he was incensed at the liberal attitudes of todays society because that itself was the cause of much of crime. i dont know if he read all the statistical reports but he was a man of great Chochma and felt one was a misguided fool to listen to the liberals who had mercy on criminals.

    all of his statements were based soley on the Gemorah and the Mesorah.

    #786623

    I am currently visiting a country that abolished its death penalty in 1981. Its murder rate is about 70% lower than that in the United States.

    Yawn. Some small society that is ethnically homogeneous, has little drug use and high taxes so that no one can really get ahead or even has the ambition to kill anyone?

    The lowest street crime ever was in Mafia-dominated parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn. That is because any lowlife who dared even steal a piece of jewelry in the Little Italy or Bensonhurst of old knew that he’d be facing the death penalty, without a jury trial or much regard to pain and suffering.

    I don’t think Martin Grossman exactly knew the penal code at the time he committed murder. Your average murderer is not a legal scholar, but he is a sociopath and therefore expects never to face justice.

    Grossman was a below-average murderer, a sad, mentally stunted man who turned to drugs and crime to escape a life of sub-mediocrity. Not even smart enough or conscious enough to qualify as a sociopath, which is why some people supported his appeal (I did not, mostly because I knew he would just be tortured to death in the end by people above him in the prison hierarchy and because I am a diehard supporter of the death penalty who did not feel there were any mitigating factors other than a very well-meaning rabbi from a fine organization who got a little too involved.)

    Levi Aron is a monster, a Jeffrey Dahmer fin inzerer. I don’t care how he became one or what his real story is. Ubearta es hara bekirbecho! And it is time for us to make a cheshbon and see if we are harboring any more Levi Arons – if we are we need to get them out of our midst and into a supervised environment even if Ohel or HASC needs to build that environment.

    #786624
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Does anyone believe the death penalty is a detterant for a phsycopath or someone who is clinically insane? With that said, as a community, we must learn how to identify such people and report them to the appropriate authorities. Some clarification of the laws of lashon hara and the ever dreaded word “mesira” by Rabbonim would be very helpful to.

    #786625
    Droid
    Member

    They’ve clarified it pretty well; you’re mechuyav to kill a moser.

    #786626
    basket of radishes
    Participant

    It may or may not be a deterrent to many of the death seeking murderers. But I for one rest much better when a horrible murderer is taken out of this world. Of course they have no life after they commit the act of murder. They will not have eternal life and they are best to be destroyed as soon as it can legally be done. This is why I personally felt that the Universe took a breath of fresh air after say Saddam Hussein was put to the gallows. This is a very righteous thing for the world to do in all of the cases of known murderers and by removing them from the world of the living they will never have any breath or association with life any time ever again. So the universe is healed and the rifts that are created begin to collapse. This is a very important thing. I am a very staunch liberal and I am very much for the Death Penalty at least in any case where it is unequivocal that the murder was committed by the said murderer.

    I feel that this is the way that Our G-d wants us to conduct our business on earth. May the time of their final moment be soon and swift with the true legal process done appropriately.

    #786627
    oomis
    Participant

    Would a beis din apply the death penalty in the particular situation under discussion?”

    He did two capital offenses together that are each separately chayav misas Beis Din. Kidnaping and murder.

    Why would he throw body parts into a dumpster in a suitcase, but KEEP the feet in his freezer? He is clearly sick, but he still committed two capital crimes.

    #786628
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Droid. You missed my point entirely.

    Oomis. If there are no eidim and/or hasrah will a beis din ever issue a psak of death? Much of what we know is based on his own admission. I’m no expert in halacha but I’m pretty sure his admission is not enough for a beis din to convict. On the flip side, I’m also pretty sure “insanity” is not a valid defense in beis din. Either way, he is going to be tried under the laws of the state of NY. He was charged with “murder 1” which under NY law if found guilty carries a penalty of life with no chance of parole. All other discussions are purely hypothetical and theoretical.

    #786629
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What basket says is very true and deep. Biarta Hara is for the sake of the world, not the individual. The world needs the justice, Lo Sachnif Ha’aretz. However, I’m not that sure I would want to trust the system with a death penalty, for what charlie pointed out, that often times an innocent person can get indicted.

    As for statistics, there are many things that come into play and a big shortcoming of our times is the fact that too much is put into the numbers. All you need is a “link” between two things and there you have it. That’s how you get a study showing the “association” between heavy people and diet soda! I understand that the knowledge that there exists, in theory, a death penalty wouldn’t deter a wacko, if it would be common knowledge that if you kill you die, there can be no doubt that it will be a much scarier thing for anyone.

    According to the Rambam, a king can institute any system that he finds necessary for the sake of society. Having said that, technically, there is no mention in the Torah that death is a better deterrent than other punishments. You can argue that a death punishment in the Torah is to show the seriousness of a certain sin, and as mentioned above, to bring justice to the world.

    #786630
    Health
    Participant

    Charlie – “Sanhedrin 57a, and Rambam Hilchot Melachim 9:14 require an eyewitness to the crime.”

    I took a long time to answer because I wanted to look at the Sugya(s).

    I understand where you are coming from but let me try to explain my perspective. The Rambam says that a Goy can’t be an Eid acc. to the Torah. So how does this coincide with the fact of -you need one Eid (even a Goy) to testify in the Goyishe courts? You might have a different Teretz, but I’m learning that Eid doesn’t mean only an Eid but any evidence that the crime has occurred. Their testimony isn’t believed because they are an Eid, but because they are revealing to us what happened. Similarly if we know from evidence that this is what occurred, the court would have to find the perp guilty. So IMO, circumstantial evidence has to be accepted in the Goyishe courts.

    The question would remain can Bais Din implement Kipa in such a case? From the Gemorrah & Rambam on Kipa, I’d venture to say -yes. Because the Gemorrah asks if there are no Eidim that he committed a crime -how do we know he did it? So the Gemorrah gives a few Tirutzim, which acc. to the Rambam all apply. The Meforshim say one Eid wouldn’t work because it’s just Loshon Horah. (Another possible Rayah that the Goy isn’t believed in Goyishe courts because of Eidus.) But from the Gemorrah’s Kasha it is Mashmah, if we have other ways of knowing like for example circumstantial evidence or perhaps something like DNA evidence we would be able to use these to put him in a Kipa. And it’s not a Kasha why circumstantial evidence wasn’t mentioned because you see each Amora who did mention something didn’t mean it to exclude something else (Rambam), so it’s quite possible that there are other ways of killing with “No Eidim” that a perp would be sentenced to the Kipa.

    #786631
    on the ball
    Participant

    Oomis – Kidnapping is not a capital crime unless the victim is sold as a slave.

    #786632
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Some small society that is ethnically homogeneous, has little drug use and high taxes so that no one can really get ahead or even has the ambition to kill anyone?”

    I’m in the largest city in that country and it looks almost as ethnically diverse as New York.

    “The lowest street crime ever was in Mafia-dominated parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn.”

    You bring a proof from the Mafia??? Do you really think that that is the answer to the crime “problem”?

    Did you know that New York City TODAY, with no Mafia to speak of, has the lowest rate of sexual assault of any city in the US that reports statistics, and also the lowest rate of property crime? I put “problem” in quotes because NYC has one of the lowest violent crime rates of any large city, too. Most of the homicides are related to illegal narcotics.

    “They’ve clarified it pretty well; you’re mechuyav to kill a moser.”

    Indeed they have clarified it. My rabbis say definitively that it is a chiyuv to report people to the authorities when they are a danger to the community. That includes people who commit sexual assaults (including on children), murderers, drug dealers, people who drive while drunk, ponzi scheme artists, and money launderers. I can’t see how anyone would rule otherwise. That would leave out people like illegal immigrants and those with minor zoning violations.

    “I’m learning that Eid doesn’t mean only an Eid but any evidence that the crime has occurred.”

    That is a serious pilpul on Rambam that is not consistent with the rest of the treatment of Noachide laws, where he simply follows the pshat of the gemara. Nowhere is there any suggestion that an eid is anything other than a witness. Remember that we are not talking about Jewish courts here.

    #786633
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    They’ve clarified it pretty well; you’re mechuyav to kill a moser.

    Since I admitted to being a moser in another thread, when are you going to fulfill your duty as a yid and come and kill me?

    The Wolf

    #786634
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis – Kidnapping is not a capital crime unless the victim is sold as a slave.

    If so, I stand corrected, thank you. I don’t recall being taught that, but it’s a long time since I was in Yeshivah. So all of Yosef’s brothers were chayav misah?

    #786635
    Health
    Participant

    Charlie – “That is a serious pilpul on Rambam that is not consistent with the rest of the treatment of Noachide laws, where he simply follows the pshat of the gemara. Nowhere is there any suggestion that an eid is anything other than a witness. Remember that we are not talking about Jewish courts here.”

    It doesn’t matter what Court, it says Eid by the court procedings and they can’t be one.

    “So how does this coincide with the fact of -you need one Eid (even a Goy) to testify in the Goyishe courts? You might have a different Teretz,”

    You haven’t given a Teretz yet, maybe you will say only a Jew can give Eidus in a secular court? I prefer my Pshat. It can’t be that you need a Goyishe Eid, but they are Posul to give Eidus. This isn’t called Eidus.

    Remember, it says Eid Echod. I’m learning that it’s not going as the Din of an Eid. If you’re learning it is going as the Din of an Eid, then only a Jew’s testimony can be accepted in secular courts, not a Goys.

    #786636
    Health
    Participant

    “So all of Yosef’s brothers were chayav misah?”

    Don’t you remember the Ten Haroogay Malchus we say on Tisha B’av and Yom Kippur? That’s the excuse the Goy gave to start killing e/o!

    #786637
    oomis
    Participant

    No one can be responsible for a goy using an excuse to kill Jews. They need no excuses.

    #786638
    mdd
    Member

    Charliehall, stop it already!! The Torah says that the death penalty deters crime. To say otherwise is minus! It is also common sense that it deters crime. Stop dreying the kup with your “proofs”.

    #786639
    mdd
    Member

    Charlie, and the proof from the situation in certain places in NYC (the way it was) is most certainly a proof. There indeed was “le’ma’an ishmeu ve’irau”.

    #786640

    Did you know that New York City TODAY, with no Mafia to speak of, has the lowest rate of sexual assault of any city in the US that reports statistics, and also the lowest rate of property crime? I put “problem” in quotes because NYC has one of the lowest violent crime rates of any large city, too. Most of the homicides are related to illegal narcotics.

    You can thank Giuliani for that. Before I left NYC in 1992 I kept a heavy wrench sticking out of my pocket whenever I went to the ATM on the Upper East Side of Manhattan after dusk to pull more than $20, that is how bad it was. The only place I felt safe after dark in those days was Boro Park (I hardly had reason to go to Williamsburgh at night). I used to see live acts in Manhattan supermarkets that rivaled Eddie Murphy skits – shoplifters getting caught, telling the most outrageous lies, and then coming back again. Complete Somalian style hefkerus.

    Giuliani was no-tolerance, no-nonsense. Even I fed the squeegee boys because I needed my windows done. He got them off the streets. Now, the statistics are skewed. It isn’t back to Koch and Dinkins but there is under-reporting going on. All you need is another left-wing mayor, or a new drug, and NY will go back to the dark days.

    And yes, sometimes you need to take care of things yourself, of course not with the Mafia but with a real Shomrim (Willy-style), when the cops are tied by lefty do-gooder regulations that keep them from doing what needs to be done to thugs. I just said the word “community patrol” to a tzigane phony meshuluch in Willy and he ran like a rabbit. Even some blocks in Harlem are safe because locals, usually from the Caribbean, took matters (and baseball bats) into their own hands after one robbery too many.

    During the Dinkins era, Roy Innis came up with the idea of arming ex-Caribbean policemen to take care of the crime problem. He was right. If criminals knew that someone who looks like a regular citizen just might be armed, they’d think many times before stealing.

    Levi Aron is one thing; a psychopath is not deterred but nevertheless has to be erased. Crime is caused by permissiveness and tolerance of crime. Your average thug does not want to go to prison, let alone end up on the chair.

    It is the bleeding hearts of this world, who have been disproven time and time again, and just look to impose their will on others and finance themselves with money paid by others, who are just as responsible for crime as criminals are.

    #786641
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Whatever the torah says, simply doesn’t apply to a non jewish court system. Instead of bickering about a hypothetical situation (may it be non hypothetical bikarov) talk about ways to be michazek those who need chizuk in dealing with this terrible situation. There are plenty of those.

    #786642
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Rabbi Avigdor Miller, z’tl, held strongly and said time after time that the death penalty is a strong deterrent to murder.

    Rav Miller ZTL would also not have stood up for Grossman. He also would not have sold out for Yeshiva funding.

    ?????? ??????? ????????, ??????? ????????? (To quote).

    #786643
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Refuting the liberal claims about the tragedy.”

    Are there liberal claims about this tragedy?

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