Refuting the Three Oaths [Gimel Shevuot]

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  • #2275474
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @avirah
    if it would be that kind of situation [i.e. threat of genocide], the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives….
    ———————————-
    Highly doubt that .
    Rhetoric I hear from Satmar quarters is that mere existence of the medina is a contravention of 3 averot hamurot and is yehareig veal yaavor , no limit on the number of those ‘yehareg’s’ ….

    Even pikuach nefesh is not matir to be drafted in the tsava.

    That is very obvious in all their statements.
    edited 

    So , no.
    satmar rave WOULD HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM cooperating with the medina .
    .

    #2275483
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own

    First there is almost no one alive today who can be accused of having “caused the Arab threat” even by the logic of the anti-Zionist literature and propaganda.

    Second the halacha is that we are mechalalel shabbos even for someone who is sakana because of an attempted suicide effort. Can you have a greater it’s his own fault and he put himself in that situation as a result of an attempted avaira than that?

    Third the Mishna and Gemora etc in Taanis that talks about gaysos makes no such distinctions about why the enemy soldiers are coming to the “other” cities and why they may be at fault.

    There is a lot more to say but I’ll suffice with saying that this type of sentiment is from the many, many things that led to my disillusionment with the extreme anti-zionist views I once had and led me to becoming an opponent of that group

    #2275670

    Avira > Zionists caused the Arab threat

    Others objected that this is relevant, but I am questioning this logic. I asked several times before, and I don’t think I got an answer. We now know the pattern of Arab behavior over decades – Saddam, war between Iraq/Iran, Syrian dictators murdering their own citizens, ISIS, Yemen, etc. This is how they treat other groups. Are you saying that heilike Yerushalmis and Aleppis would survive all of that by paying bakshish to Assads and keeping dhimmi status with ISIS? Did Zionim cause all of these tzoros on the whole Middle East?

    #2275671

    Avira > Zionists caused the Arab threat

    Others objected that this is relevant, but I am questioning this logic. I asked several times before, and I don’t think I got an answer. We now know the pattern of Arab behavior over decades – Saddam, war between Iraq/Iran, Syrian dictators murdering their own citizens, ISIS, Yemen, etc. This is how they treat other groups. Are you saying that heilike Yerushalmis and Aleppis would survive all of that by paying bakshish to Assads and keeping dhimmi status with ISIS? Did Zionim cause all of these tzoros on the whole Middle East?

    #2275751
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @avirah
    aaq is right in his argument here.
    The yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years. Who said yehudim would have fared any better , if they would have been no state ?

    #2275968

    yankel > . Who said yehudim would have fared any better

    but, of course, this is hindsight. At that moment, it was not clear what will follow. Similar to WW2 that many expected to go similar to WW1 …

    So, we should not be looking down at the arguments that were made historically, but we should revisit them when new information becomes available instead of continuing repeating arguments that sounded good at the time…

    When R Steinsaltz was asked about the reasonas behind Shoah (in the context of his lecture about Churban and other historical events in Gemorah), he responded that 50 years is too early to make a judgment, gemora took more time to make conclusions about the Churban.

    #2276041

    yankel> yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years

    yes, at the time, I showed some friends from Aleppo pictures of whole Yazidi population escaping up the mountain and then to Syria, with view of fully functional villages, occasional animals, but no people, and then abandoned cars on the slope up the mountain (they would run out of gas and then continue walking) – “this could have been you” … and, similarly, Russian bombardment of Aleppo to force opposition to leave.

    #2276353
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The old Yishuv had to defend themselves from Arab gangs.

    #2276974
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL ZYA] said this in
    his HANDBOOK OF JEWISH THOUGHT,
    volume II, chapter 3, paragraph 24, top of page 23:

    “Experience has shown us that when Jews
    are not ready to defend and die for their fellows,
    an even greater number are killed in the end.”

    #2277037
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own
    ====================
    It has been pointed out , repeatedly , that this argument is a non starter in hilchot pikuah nefesh.
    We dont , cannot and are not allowed to limit our p/n responses by the criteria of “who started it”.
    In all contexts.

    There has been no response whatsoever to this point.
    Does that mean that no response exists ?

    Could we therefore conclude this argument as settled ?
    Please – as a last appeal – anyone has an answer ?

    If not ,we should consider this point as ‘finally settled’ , Shtika kehoda’a. Not like the satmar shita [who attempt to use this argument].

    #2277300
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Yankel berel, Rav Henkin zt”l quotes this midrash Lekach Tov. Rav Henkin zt”l was so against the founding of Israel that he refused to join the Agudah of America, but once Israel was founded he felt we need to defend it:
    שמואל שאל ללוי בר סיסי מה בטח. א״ל בטוחים היו על כחו של זקן. 30כיון שראה יעקב אבינו אמר מה אני מניח את בני ליפול ביד האומות. מיד נטל חרבו וקשתו ועמד לו על פתחה של שכם. אמר שאם יבואו האומות העולם להרוג אותם אני אלחם כנגדם. הוא שהוא אומר ליוסף ואני נתתי לך שכם אחד על אחיך אשר לקחתי מיד האמורי בחרבי ובקשתי (שם מ״ח:כ״ב).
    That is quoted here, siman 109:
    https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22080&st=&pgnum=232
    This backs you up on this point. Yidden don’t let other Yidden get killed, even if the original yidden acted improperly.

    #2277321
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @lernt
    Thanks

    #2287233
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    One famous person, who name I cannot remember now, said that:
    “An anti-Semite is a person who hates Jews more than they deserve”
    or something very similar to that.

    Some people in this Coffee Room, whose names I will not mention,
    hate “The Zionists” much more than they deserve, and in my opinion,
    that makes them Jewish anti-Semites, or something very similar to that.

    Anti-Semites often refuse to acknowledge any good deeds done by Jews.
    For example, schools in Iran teach [falsely] that Albert Einstein was a Muslim.

    Similarly, the radical anti-Zionists also refuse to acknowledge
    any good done by “The Zionists”. For example:

    [1] Under Zionist rule, the number of yeshivahs in Israel has
    increased from around 3 to many hundreds, and more every year.

    [2] Under Zionist rule, Jews enjoy vastly increased access to the Kotel.

    [3] All food in Israel’s Army is kosher.

    [4] Under Zionist rule, Jewish knowledge of the Hebrew language
    has increased to levels not seen in 18 centuries of exile.

    [5] Under Zionist rule, all [or almost all] marriages and divorces
    are performed by Orthodox Rabbis, even for secular Jews.

    [6] Under Zionist rule, the land of Israel has become a
    place of refuge, for Jews from many dozens of countries.

    As I write these words, I know that the radical anti-Zionists
    will never admit that what I said is true, and they will
    never even admit that I might have even one valid point.

    But I do not write this for them; I write for the people
    who know that the radical anti-Zionists are wrong,
    but cannot explain WHY the radical anti-Zionists are wrong.

    #2287376
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Square Root: great points, except for #2. Access to the Kotel doesn’t really make a difference halachically or hashkafically. Yes, it’s a holy place, but so what? It doesn’t really have any significance in halacha.

    #2287748
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    DaMoshe: Thank you for your words of appreciation.

    The Kotel may not have any Halachic significance;
    BUT, if I remember correctly, the Midrash Tehillim
    teaches that THE SHECHINAH never leaves The Kotel.

    Which is probably why we Jews want to pray there.

    #2293610
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
    and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.
    His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.

    He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”
    He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.

    The quote shown below is from his English-language biography.

    ===============================

    In a conversation with the Satmar Rav, shortly after his talk
    on the U.N. declaration, Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz]
    was subjected to the sharpest criticism for his “Zionist leanings.”

    Later he told his family, “I could have answered him
    [the Satmar Rav] Chazal for Chazal, Midrash for Midrash,
    but I did not want to incur his wrath,
    for he is a great man and a tzaddik.”

    He added with a twinkle, “And besides, he has a fiery temper”…

    SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of
    Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, the architect of Torah
    in America (chapter 26, page 335 to 336)
    by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001,
    based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
    ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

    #2295088
    ReflectiveNotes
    Participant

    I would like to look at this issue from a different standpoint. Why are the three oaths even relevant today? Would would you like to do in order to adhere to the three oaths? Ask the British to return and take over Eretz Yisroel? Hand it back to the U.N.? Give it over to Hamas or the Palestinian Authority? Do you plan to evacuate the Jews from Eretz Yisroel? Where do you plan to send them? To America where there will be mass assimilation and intermarriage? Let’s assume that whole Zionist enterprise was wrong from the outset. Does that mean that we should allow Jews to be slaughtered and take no actions of self defense? The fact of the matter is that what is done is done and now we have to somehow deal with the reality of the world the way it is. I don’t think Satmar has ever suggested a realistic alternative other than pure fantasy.

    #2295281

    A good point. We need to read a fine print in three oaths: what are we supposed to do if another group of Yidden violates the oaths. Surely, this was a consideration. And if it was not – it is a classical case for oath annulment: did you expect X to happen? No. So, those who feel bound by the oath, should convene a beis din and get it done. We all can join, so that they don’t feel so bad about it.

    #2295446
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t think Satmar has ever suggested a realistic alternative other than pure fantasy.

    This is true. Satmar doesn’t actually advocate for any particular political move. They are simply against working with and acknowledging the state. They don’t believe it should be dismantled by Human actors.

    Rav Miller was fully on board with the Satmar anti-Zionist position, yet he advocated for strong Israeli responses.

    #2295496
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Arizal stated that the Gimel Shevuot [Three Oaths]
    did NOT APPLY after 1,000 years of exile.

    Rabbi Chaim Vital taught that the Three Oaths
    were only binding for the first thousand [1,000] years of Exile,
    in his Introduction to Sefer Eitz Chayim.

    This means that The Three Oaths expired more than 900 years ago.

    If you believe that The Three Oaths are halachically binding,
    then just TRY to find them in: the Arba Turim, Shulchan Aruch,
    Rambam’s Mishnah Torah or the Shulchan Aruch HaRav.

    #2296246
    ujm
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: I apologize for my last comment addressed to you in the other thread. I didn’t think you’d be too upset, since I deliberately cloaked (or so I thought) my reference to what only you/mishpacha would understand. I felt your prior comment to me, as well as a number of previous comments you addressed to me, were designed to annoy — for reasons I understand where you’re coming from, though I know your premise to be incorrect. As much as I wish to communicate to you why that is so, this medium won’t allow that. In any event, I shouldn’t have referenced what you’ve objected to and for that I’m sorry.

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