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April 8, 2024 10:03 am at 10:03 am #2275474yankel berelParticipant
@avirah
if it would be that kind of situation [i.e. threat of genocide], the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives….
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Highly doubt that .
Rhetoric I hear from Satmar quarters is that mere existence of the medina is a contravention of 3 averot hamurot and is yehareig veal yaavor , no limit on the number of those ‘yehareg’s’ ….Even pikuach nefesh is not matir to be drafted in the tsava.
That is very obvious in all their statements.
editedSo , no.
satmar rave WOULD HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM cooperating with the medina .
.April 8, 2024 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2275483smerelParticipant>>>Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own
First there is almost no one alive today who can be accused of having “caused the Arab threat” even by the logic of the anti-Zionist literature and propaganda.
Second the halacha is that we are mechalalel shabbos even for someone who is sakana because of an attempted suicide effort. Can you have a greater it’s his own fault and he put himself in that situation as a result of an attempted avaira than that?
Third the Mishna and Gemora etc in Taanis that talks about gaysos makes no such distinctions about why the enemy soldiers are coming to the “other” cities and why they may be at fault.
There is a lot more to say but I’ll suffice with saying that this type of sentiment is from the many, many things that led to my disillusionment with the extreme anti-zionist views I once had and led me to becoming an opponent of that group
April 8, 2024 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2275670Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantAvira > Zionists caused the Arab threat
Others objected that this is relevant, but I am questioning this logic. I asked several times before, and I don’t think I got an answer. We now know the pattern of Arab behavior over decades – Saddam, war between Iraq/Iran, Syrian dictators murdering their own citizens, ISIS, Yemen, etc. This is how they treat other groups. Are you saying that heilike Yerushalmis and Aleppis would survive all of that by paying bakshish to Assads and keeping dhimmi status with ISIS? Did Zionim cause all of these tzoros on the whole Middle East?
April 8, 2024 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2275671Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantAvira > Zionists caused the Arab threat
Others objected that this is relevant, but I am questioning this logic. I asked several times before, and I don’t think I got an answer. We now know the pattern of Arab behavior over decades – Saddam, war between Iraq/Iran, Syrian dictators murdering their own citizens, ISIS, Yemen, etc. This is how they treat other groups. Are you saying that heilike Yerushalmis and Aleppis would survive all of that by paying bakshish to Assads and keeping dhimmi status with ISIS? Did Zionim cause all of these tzoros on the whole Middle East?
April 9, 2024 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2275751yankel berelParticipant@avirah
aaq is right in his argument here.
The yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years. Who said yehudim would have fared any better , if they would have been no state ?April 9, 2024 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #2275968Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel > . Who said yehudim would have fared any better
but, of course, this is hindsight. At that moment, it was not clear what will follow. Similar to WW2 that many expected to go similar to WW1 …
So, we should not be looking down at the arguments that were made historically, but we should revisit them when new information becomes available instead of continuing repeating arguments that sounded good at the time…
When R Steinsaltz was asked about the reasonas behind Shoah (in the context of his lecture about Churban and other historical events in Gemorah), he responded that 50 years is too early to make a judgment, gemora took more time to make conclusions about the Churban.
April 10, 2024 8:28 am at 8:28 am #2276041Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel> yazidi’s did not fare too well in the last few years
yes, at the time, I showed some friends from Aleppo pictures of whole Yazidi population escaping up the mountain and then to Syria, with view of fully functional villages, occasional animals, but no people, and then abandoned cars on the slope up the mountain (they would run out of gas and then continue walking) – “this could have been you” … and, similarly, Russian bombardment of Aleppo to force opposition to leave.
April 11, 2024 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2276353HaLeiViParticipantThe old Yishuv had to defend themselves from Arab gangs.
April 13, 2024 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2276974SQUARE_ROOTParticipantRabbi Aryeh Kaplan [ZTL ZYA] said this in
his HANDBOOK OF JEWISH THOUGHT,
volume II, chapter 3, paragraph 24, top of page 23:“Experience has shown us that when Jews
are not ready to defend and die for their fellows,
an even greater number are killed in the end.”April 14, 2024 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2277037yankel berelParticipantYankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own
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It has been pointed out , repeatedly , that this argument is a non starter in hilchot pikuah nefesh.
We dont , cannot and are not allowed to limit our p/n responses by the criteria of “who started it”.
In all contexts.There has been no response whatsoever to this point.
Does that mean that no response exists ?Could we therefore conclude this argument as settled ?
Please – as a last appeal – anyone has an answer ?If not ,we should consider this point as ‘finally settled’ , Shtika kehoda’a. Not like the satmar shita [who attempt to use this argument].
April 14, 2024 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #2277300LerntminTayrahParticipantYankel berel, Rav Henkin zt”l quotes this midrash Lekach Tov. Rav Henkin zt”l was so against the founding of Israel that he refused to join the Agudah of America, but once Israel was founded he felt we need to defend it:
שמואל שאל ללוי בר סיסי מה בטח. א״ל בטוחים היו על כחו של זקן. 30כיון שראה יעקב אבינו אמר מה אני מניח את בני ליפול ביד האומות. מיד נטל חרבו וקשתו ועמד לו על פתחה של שכם. אמר שאם יבואו האומות העולם להרוג אותם אני אלחם כנגדם. הוא שהוא אומר ליוסף ואני נתתי לך שכם אחד על אחיך אשר לקחתי מיד האמורי בחרבי ובקשתי (שם מ״ח:כ״ב).
That is quoted here, siman 109:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22080&st=&pgnum=232
This backs you up on this point. Yidden don’t let other Yidden get killed, even if the original yidden acted improperly.April 15, 2024 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2277321yankel berelParticipant@lernt
Thanks -
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