Regarding the Draft

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  • #610030

    To those who oppose the forcible drafting of bnei yeshivos, how would you respond to the argument that soldiers are able to be mekayem the mitzvah dioraisa of pikuach nefesh by saving Jewish lives from the surrounding Arabs? This applies not only to the direct combat fighters, but also to those that help out in other ways in security, intelligence, and even kitchen duty.

    If that is true, then serving in the army is indeed taking time from talmud Torah, but it at least has a lot of value as pikuach nefesh and not a shas hashmad as some claim.

    Any thoughts?

    #967708

    The people that are against the draft because it will “end torah learning” are ignorant. All that want to learn from the ages of 0-21 and again from ages 23.5-120 are free to do so.

    In addition, it is not as if active duty soldiers have zero down time. Learn then if you would like.

    #967709

    Chacham
    Participant

    we need yeshivos pashut so people understand svara and lumdus and they won’t make dimyonos that are ridiculous. your dimyon to the army of the dor hamidbar was bad enough…??? ???

    #967710

    rebdoniel
    Member

    My feeling is that most Haredim will be deemed unfit for combat, so they’ll end up serving in the capacity of a “conscientious objector,” i.e. peeling potatoes, emptying latrines, etc.

    #967711

    HaKatan
    Participant

    The potential pikuach nefesh benefit has no bearing on the shmad that is Zionism and the IDF.

    In other words, even if serving in the army is halachicly considered saving pikuach nefesh, that would not allow for becoming shmaded in the IDF.

    #967712

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ????? ???? ???? ????.

    It’s the same reason yeshivah bochurim and avreichim in chu”l generally don’t join Hatzolah, which doesn’t even carry the ruchniyusdik’e dangers of the IDF.

    #967713

    kasher
    Participant

    Interesting to see how so many comment on issues that they know so little about. Having “served” in the Israeli army myself (about 30 years ago when the animosity wasn’t anywhere near as bad as today) I can confidently say that they have little interest in accommodating religious interests. Have we all forgotten the recent issues with forcing men to listen to women singing? Shmiras Shabbos often involves many b’dieved situations (and NOT during wartime when almost all is permissible)?

    There is very little time for any quality learning

    There was a recent article about the military’s concern with rising number of religious officers.

    Lastly, have we lost all of out emunas chachomim? One may not fully understand their rational (aka Da’as torah) but to question it on a blog?? If we really want to understand (and not just complain) Go to the Gedolim and ask “Yelamdeinu Rabbeinu”.

    p.s. Nobody’s questioning Lapids “service” as a correspondent…

    #967714

    No one here is criticizing or belittling (chas v’shalom) gedolim, I honestly don’t know where you got that one from! Regarding the halachic issues of army service, my understanding is that frum soldiers can be placed in all-frum, or all-chareidi units where there is time for learning and davening, and the food is under stricter supervision. Even if there are some problematic inyanim that come up as a soldier, isn’t pikuach nefesh more important?

    DY: Yes, Talmud Torah is very important and central to the survival of klal yisroel. but so is hishtadlus and protecting ourselves! The gemara tells us not to rely on nissim, and we need to do work to make sure we remain safe and in possession of eretz hakodesh, right? also, soldiers get the mitzvah of pikuach nefesh which is really, really important!

    HaKatan: Your claim needs to be substantiated. Please tell me, politely and seriously, why the tremendous mitzvah of pikuach nefesh suddenly doesn’t matter when it applies to serving in the idf. Pikuach nefesh is SO important it even overrules shabbos! why not here?

    #967715

    kasher
    Participant

    your Questioning Gedolim- With derech eretz go ask them not the CR.

    Did you read recently that General Elazar Stern (religious?!) wants to abolish the Hesder program. Not having been there you have no idea of the challenges facing religious soldiers. The Yetzer Hara’s work is all cut out for him.

    The military (as well as many “well meaning” politicians) are anti chareidi and some even anti religious.

    If we don’t join them then they complain why we don’t, if we do join them then they complain that we crimp their lifestyle.

    #967716

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RF, what I am telling you is halachah l’maaseh. Where it’s “efshar al y’dai acherim” (which it is) one doesn’t stop learning.

    Talmud Torah k’neged kulom trumps the importance of hatzolas nefashos.

    This is a halachic shaila. The reasoning I gave is, I believe, correct, and likely the reason any posek would give.

    #967717

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My feeling is that most Haredim will be deemed unfit for combat, so they’ll end up serving in the capacity of a “conscientious objector,” i.e. peeling potatoes, emptying latrines, etc.

    This is how you express your achdut during the nine days? I guess it might be a little better than your earlier call for deportation of the chareidim.

    #967718

    Kasher, show me where I have belittled gedolim and I will gladly apologize. If not, you’re merely trying to smear. Seeing as this is an online anonymous forum, you have no idea where I’ve been, and I likewise don’t know what you’ve done, or if you’re telling the truth, so I cannot take your personal anecdotes as fact.

    I had not read about this general, but I do know a lot about chashuv dati leumi rebbeim like rav aharon lichtenstei and rav dov lior who certainly do support hesder learning, and are established talmidei chachomim. Very serious dati leumi rabbanim and leaders have served in the army, remained frum, and are upstanding jews. why can’t chareidim follow in that example?

    DY: I believe that this applies only when it’s not a shas hadechak. And I would venture to guess that if you told this secular people, they would feel frustrated that chareidim don’t serve simply because there are others to pick up the work. that’s not a halachic point, but think about how it would sound to them. “I can’t do this because YOU can, so go do it.”

    #967719

    Toi
    Participant

    id like o point out that even after hearing from a vet here in the CR people still have this silly notion that the IDF could care for religion in the slightest. people, wake up.

    #967720

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I would respond by laughing. It completely misses the entire issue.

    #967721

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And I would venture to guess that if you told this secular people, they would feel frustrated that chareidim don’t serve simply because there are others to pick up the work. that’s not a halachic point, but think about how it would sound to them. “I can’t do this because YOU can, so go do it.”

    So?

    #967722

    Naftush
    Member

    Kasher, I also served 30 years ago, and twenty, and ten, etc. I found the nonreligious anything but hostile. They were bewildered and afraid of sudden demands, incomprehensible to them, that aren’t covered by the General Staff rules. In fact, they made plenty of accommodations to my lifestyle that went beyond the rules. As for women’s singing, they can “force” sound waves to strike one’s eardrums but they can’t force one to listen.

    #967723

    Naftush
    Member

    Kasher, I also served 30 years ago, and twenty, and ten, etc. I found the nonreligious anything but hostile. They were bewildered and afraid of sudden demands, incomprehensible to them, that aren’t covered by the General Staff rules. In fact, they made plenty of accommodations to my lifestyle that went beyond the rules. As for women’s singing, they can “force” sound waves to strike one’s eardrums but they can’t force one to listen.

    #967724

    akuperma
    Participant

    We are confusing several distinct issues.

    One involves conscription of those who hold that the war is not allowed by halacha (neither milchemes rashus nor milchemes mitzvah) meaning that Israeli soldiers are required to refuse to kill goyim or destroy their property (i.e. we are the rodef, they are the nirdaf). If you hold that way, which is what anti-zionist hareidim hold, it is irrelevant whether you are in yeshiva, you must refuse to serve in the army. In the past, this group, perhaps a tenth of hareidim, but perhaps more, were exempted under the theory they were learning. Given Israel’s non-recognition of conscientious objection, they now have a serious problem (probably solved by allowing Jews with halachic objections to military service to be exempt, similar to how Arabs Muslims are treated). Non-zionist hareidim will probably prefer prison, if drafted will be very bad soldiers, and will complain to international human rights groups if drafted.

    There is another issue of funding yeshivos (hareidim don’t want government funding, zionists think it is proof that Israel is a Jewish state), compounded with the fact most hareidi males are banned from working (“on the books”) since they haven’t served in the army. Almost no one in Israel supports a continuation of this policy, and from an economic perspective, it is hightly dumb.

    Then there is the position of many pro-zionist “hareidim” who support having other people bash Arabs heads, but want to learn gemara themselves. These are probably hypocrites. In America we call them “chicken hawks” – pro-war, but not wanting to serve.

    Lastly there is the problem of the IDF encouraging, tolerating and sometimes activitly persecuting hareidim who do serve. Regulations and policies to prevent this are ignored. At best there in segregated units (similar to the American Buffalo soldiers, or the British native regiments). The only solution for this is to tell officers that if they can’t keep all their soldiers happy and working together amicably, meaning hareidi soldiers shouldn’t feel they have to give up on mitsvos to serve – they’ll be replaced by officers who can (note that when someone scheduled female singers for a ceremony, the officer was praised widely rather than told to find a different line of work).

    These are all separate issues.

    #967725

    stamer
    Member

    Natfush: When the militarty FOBIDS a religious daati leumi soldier from leaving the premises of where women are singing even though they requested that accomodation, they are forcing the soldier to listen to kol isha and violate halacha.

    But that is only one of the smallest of the small examples.

    #967726

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Interesting that people believe that “kasher” is a veteran. I do not. I think he is lying and using it to bash the Army.

    DaasYochid:Please go and learn some sugyos in gemoro Sottah, kiddushin,kessubos, and rambam and then you can pontificate about “talmud torah keneged kuom”. You are literally “mareh ponim shelo kehalocho” and you ignore whole sugyos.

    #967727

    rabbiofberlin: I wouldn’t go so far as to say I KNOW he is lying, it’s just hard to prove a point over the internet based on an anonymous anecdote. He may be lying, he may be telling the truth, but because we just don’t know, he cannot use that as a raiyah.

    Akuperma: Isn’t fighting a war to increase the territory of eretz yisrael a milchemes mitzvah? wars fought by the IDF increases the territory of eretz yisrael, especially in ’67 when Israel’s territory tripled. What is the chareidi anti-zionist defense to this?

    DY: I assumed you would better understand why many chilonim are upset. Your response is apathy to their concerns, and that is a very dangerous way to approach diplomacy in politics.

    Popa: You know, now that you posted a condescending comment, I’m really starting to see how your argument is valid (insert sarcasm here). Laughing does not further your argument, and annoys me. If you genuinely think my shailah missed the “whole issue” identify the issue, if you can do it coherently. I’m not convinced you can, so prove me wrong!.

    #967728

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, if these Maseru m’komos are anything like the ones you’ve shown me before (e.g. Pesachim 74b), I’ve got nothing to worry about.

    Are you in favor of emptying put the kollelim in the US and having all the avreichim joining Hatzolah?

    #967729

    Also, as the Rabbi of Berlin mentioned, Daas Yochid misses the point that talmidei chachamim MUST cease their talmud torah and go fight along with the rest of the am UNLESS torah umnaso, torah is their occupation full-time.

    that would mean most chareidim not serving right now would have to serve except for the select few that are in it full-time. Back in the alte heim, there was a select elite group of talmidei chachamim that learned, and most other ‘chareidim’ back then worked. The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery store, chayei adam sold gunpowder, etc.

    #967730

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Did you even look at Pesochim 74B?

    #967731

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: because if you bothered to look at it, you might know why we pasken “lekuloh” in most instances.

    #967732

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course I did. To say that one gemara which paskens l’kula makes it the rule is laughable. I though your son straightened you out on that.

    #967733

    so defend yourself, DY! This is the milchamta shel torah we’re waging!!! Let the chilonim physically fight for the moment, and explain why ROB’s mekoros aren’t valid!

    #967734

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Let him bring specific mekoros and explain how they support his position, instead of merely vaguely naming mesechtos.

    #967735

    hamotzi mechaveiro alav harayah, he did bring you a mekor from pesachim.

    #967736

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No he didn’t. Just saying the name of a daf is not a raya. Besides, he was referring to a different inyan.

    What does hamotzi mechaveiro have to do with anything?

    #967737

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    rationalfrummie: the argument that we are pursuing was whether there is a tendency to pasken “lekuloh” in halocho. I brought down the classical “koach deheteirah odif’ and other mekoros. One mekor, quite obscure, is the gemoro in Pesochim 74B where the gemoro mentions two amoroim and the gemoro paskens lekuleh WHICHEVER amora it is. In other words, if you pasken like one of these amoroim in one case because he paskens lekuloh and ,in another case, that same amoro is “lechumro” and we should accept his view -as we accepted his views previously-the gemoro goes ahead and paskens AGAINST this amoro this time and swiches to his bar pelugto BECAUSE he paskens lekuloh. To me, this is a telling argument that the gemoro prefers to pasken lekuloh always. I do not say that this is always the case, but there are enough cases through Shas and halocho that I can assert this view of “lekuloh”.

    #967738

    Health
    Participant

    rationalfrummie -“To those who oppose the forcible drafting of bnei yeshivos, how would you respond to the argument that soldiers are able to be mekayem the mitzvah dioraisa of pikuach nefesh by saving Jewish lives from the surrounding Arabs?”

    If there is another way to save Jewish lives besides killing Arabs then one must do that! Give the country/State of Israel to the Goyim. eg. to Turkey. You can’t put yourself in the situation and then scream Pikuach Nefesh!

    #967739

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    rationalfrummie: the argument that we are pursuing was whether there is a tendency to pasken “lekuloh” in halocho. I brought down the classical “koach deheteirah odif’ and other mekoros. One mekor, quite obscure, is the gemoro in Pesochim 74B where the gemoro mentions two amoroim and the gemoro paskens lekuleh WHICHEVER amora it is. In other words, if you pasken like one of these amoroim in one case because he paskens lekuloh and ,in another case, that same amoro is “lechumro” and we should accept his view -as we accepted his views previously-the gemoro goes ahead and paskens AGAINST this amoro this time and swiches to his bar pelugto BECAUSE he paskens lekuloh. To me, this is a telling argument that the gemoro prefers to pasken lekuloh always. I do not say that this is always the case, but there are enough cases through Shas and halocho that I can assert this view of “lekuloh”.

    #967740

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Did you even look at Pesochim 74B?

    I’ll look at it in about 7 weeks

    #967741

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As I pointed out, ROB, the gemara in A”Z gives us clear basic guidelines.

    The word “BECAUSE”, it should be pointed it out, is ROB’s, not the gemara’s.

    #967742

    Toi
    Participant

    DY- i always understood that gemara, which, incidentally, comes up in a few places, to mean that we have a mesorah on those machlokisim and even if we forgot who exactly said what, we know that the psak in those cases is likulah, so it doesnt matter who said what, even when dealing with 2 bar plugtas where there is a general klal who we pasken like.

    #967743

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Toi, I agree. I thought the same way. The key words (regarding ROB’s opinion) being “those cases”.

    #967745

    Toi
    Participant

    agreed.

    #967746

    HaKatan
    Participant

    rationalfrummie, your first fundamental error is assuming “we” need to keep control of Eretz Yisrael. This is something Mashiach will do, BB”A. Before then, we are strictly forbidden to take control of E”Y even if the nations want “us” to have it. Unlike many other halachic issues, nobody outside of Zionism (that I have seen) says that Zionists have “al ma lismoch” in their forcible conquest of E”Y and rebelling against the nations, both of which are separate and severe violations.

    Your second error is assuming “we” are, CH”V, the same as the Zionists. The Zionists hate our/their faith, and their greatest wish after replacing Judaism with Zionism is, as recently expressed in their “Knesset”, to change Chareidim to Israelis. The Torah is, of course, diametrically opposed to Zionism. We are most definitely not Zionists.

    This whole “share the burden” nonsense is a pathetic smokescreen for their real endgame of “integrating” Chareidim into Israeli culture, as the Zionists have openly proclaimed, as above.

    Your third error is assuming that a “Chareidi” unit is so wonderful. See the recent articles by the Rabbis who run these units and they all say that even these units are no place for a frum kid. If, for example, a kid would anyways be, CH”V, “in the streets,” then that’s who these Rabbis want in these units. But these same Rabbis in charge of these units write clearly that these units are a very bad thing for a regular frum/chareidi kid.

    Additionally, as this tragic movement of getting Chareidim in to the IDF has gained steam, more horror stories, CH”V, have emerged. For example, recently, there was a terrible story of how the Zionists convinced a chareidi man to “temporarily” switch to a different (i.e. non-Chareidi) unit for advancement purposes. As a result of this switch, this man experienced terrible yeridos and his anguished wife cried to a Jerusalem rabbi that “the State of Israel has betrayed me”; the Zionists have, unfortunately, destroyed another frum person and his family.

    Finally, only to a Zionist would it make sense to, CH”V, sacrifice even a drop of precious Jewish blood for the sole purpose of helping the State of Israel increase its land holdings. As you seem very concerned about this issue of pikuach nefesh, pikuach nefesh is certainly not pushed aside for the Zionists to try to control more land even if they had the halachic right to any of it in the first place, which they don’t.

    #967747

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No he didn’t. Just saying the name of a daf is not a raya.

    #967748

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid and Toi: of course, as you both intimate, it is a “kabboloh” that in a machlokes between Rav Acha and Ravina (the amoroim in this case), where it is not stipulated who is who (chad omar, char omar), we always pasken lekuloh-but it is they “why” that I am interested in. Why would we pasken like Ravina in the whole of shas (when he paskens lekuloh) and suddenly, in three cases we switch sides and pasken like Rav Acha- who is the one who paskens this time lekuloh. What motivates the gemoro to abandon Ravina (who,in these cases, is lechumro)and pasken like Rav Acha? Clearly, as rashi says, because he paskens lekuloh. To me, this is clear evidence that the gemoro prefers to pasken lekuloh.

    #967749

    Toi
    Participant

    or because that was part of the mesorah they had.

    #967750

    writersoul
    Member

    HaKatan: You tar Zionists with rather a wide brush.

    To whom exactly do you refer when you say “Zionists”?

    #967751

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    TOI- and so, the mesorah paskens lekuloh……

    #967752

    HaKatan
    Participant

    writersoul, it is the Zionists that tar themselves, and it was the gedolim who spoke about it.

    Zionism is shmad (and more).

    It is important to realize that even “Religious Zionists”, despite their (likely) good intentions, are de facto integrating this shmad into their yahadus.

    Understand that this is not like being a member of one political party over another; a “Religious Zionist” on these boards quoted to me in Rabbi Kook’s name that their theology holds “we are Jewish because we are Zionist and Zionist because we are Jewish”. Does that sound like anything Moshe Rabbeinu would agree with?

    Given this quote, it underscores the holy words of Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D, who wrote in Ikvisa DiMishicha that Nationalism is Avoda Zara and Religious Nationalism is religion in conjunction with Avoda Zara. (And that’s besides for and before the terrible shmad the Zionists did and still do).

    Here are his words:

    “It is clear that since modern nationalism is fundamentally idol-worship, it follows automatically that the Religio-Nationalist viewpoint is nothing less than idol-worship coupled with service to G-d.”

    So, given the above, how would you answer your own question?

    #967753

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Rational Frummie: I think it is absolutely true that someone in the army is fulfilling pikuach nefesh. At the same time if one can learn and leave pikuah nefesh to others, that is what shulchan aruch requires. And the army has enough soldiers.

    This is not the point of what is going on in Israel, as I’m sure you are well aware.

    #967754

    Toi
    Participant

    ROB- the mesorah was on those specific cases. not to shtell avekk a klal in shas.

    #967755

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    lebidik yankel: If it is indeed pikuach nefesh, you MUST do it yourself and not leave it to others! G-d forbid that- in cases of pikuach nefesh- one waits for someone else to do it!

    Whetehr the army has enough soldiers is debatable- let the army decide.

    #967756

    Toi
    Participant

    ROB- you stam make no sense. why do you not hop on a flight and go enlist. ” G-d forbid that- in cases of pikuach nefesh- one waits for someone else to do it!”

    #967757

    Daas2
    Member

    “To those who oppose the forcible drafting of bnei yeshivos, how would you respond to the argument that soldiers are able to be mekayem the mitzvah dioraisa of pikuach nefesh by saving Jewish lives from the surrounding Arabs?”

    The Shulchan Oruch paskens that one should not be mevatel talmud Torah in order to preform a mitzva she’efshar la’asos al yiday achairim. So if the entire population of the State of Israel was learning all day, one would indeed be required to stop learning in order to defend the country. But seeing as the chillonim are B”H managing to defend the country rather nicely without the Chareidim’s help, there’s no reason that the Chareidim must stop learning and start soldiering.

    akuperma:

    “there is the position of many pro-zionist “hareidim” who support having other people bash Arabs heads, but want to learn gemara themselves. These are probably hypocrites. In America we call them “chicken hawks” – pro-war, but not wanting to serve.”

    Nobody here is advocating “bashing Arab heads”; we just realize that we must maintain defense forces against those who seek to kill us, R”L. However, we also believe that learning contributes more to this cause than soldiering does; aileh bi’rechev vi’aileh ba’soosim, va’anachnu bi’shaim Elokainu nazkir.

    Naftush:

    “As for women’s singing, they can “force” sound waves to strike one’s eardrums but they can’t force one to listen.”

    What is that supposed to mean? They can force you to violate the halacha, they just can’t make you like it?

    ROB:

    “Interesting that people believe that “kasher” is a veteran. I do not. I think he is lying and using it to bash the Army.

    DaasYochid:… You are literally “mareh ponim shelo kehalocho” and you ignore whole sugyos.”

    Please, it still during the nine days… lets try to cut down on the sinas chinom and beef up the dan li’kaf zechus.

    HaKatan:

    “rationalfrummie, your first fundamental error is assuming “we” need to keep control of Eretz Yisrael. This is something Mashiach will do, BB”A. Before then, we are strictly forbidden to take control of E”Y even if the nations want “us” to have it. Unlike many other halachic issues, nobody outside of Zionism (that I have seen) says that Zionists have “al ma lismoch” in their forcible conquest of E”Y and rebelling against the nations, both of which are separate and severe violations.”

    How does any of that change the fact that today, we are surrounded by Arabs who want to kill us R”L, and we must defend ourselves against them?

    lebidik yankel:

    “I think it is absolutely true that someone in the army is fulfilling pikuach nefesh. At the same time if one can learn and leave pikuah nefesh to others, that is what shulchan aruch requires. And the army has enough soldiers.”

    +1

    ROB:

    “If it is indeed pikuach nefesh, you MUST do it yourself and not leave it to others!”

    Do you have a source for that? The Shulchan Oruch seems to say the opposite…

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