September 17, 2008 12:30 am at 12:30 am #588250milchigMember
I am a reader of many different news blogs (Jewish and Secular) and it disturbs me about the lack of respect certain posters have for others comments especially when it comes to issues that relate to yiddishkeit.
There is a polite way to tell someone that you disagree with them without calling them liars (in Hebrew/Yiddish), morons and all those other kind words we teach our children not to use.
I wonder how many others feel this way too?September 17, 2008 12:55 am at 12:55 am #624279chachomParticipant
If someone lies and speaks loshon hora about klal yisroel, its obligatory to call them out.September 17, 2008 12:58 am at 12:58 am #624280
Hear, hear!September 17, 2008 1:26 am at 1:26 am #624281JewessMember
***nods head***September 17, 2008 2:22 am at 2:22 am #624282
The problem with the above comments is that it usually applied to someone with different opinions or who relies on different psak halochas. It also, as has been done to me by one particular poster, means that a posting name should not be used and modified into an object of derisionSeptember 17, 2008 2:34 am at 2:34 am #624283anon for thisParticipant
I agree–it’s possible to criticize someone’s words without impugning his character or his Jewishness.September 17, 2008 4:31 am at 4:31 am #624285veimloachshuvMember
for the most part i agree with you, however when someone tries to go against our holy torah in any which way, darf men mocha zein in full force.September 17, 2008 4:52 am at 4:52 am #624287bein_hasdorimParticipant
to torahis1: Hah Hah! Taliban, judgemental, mean spiritedness. I agree!
& to veimloachsuv: moycha zein in full force, but like a Mentsch!September 17, 2008 6:46 am at 6:46 am #624288
“There is a polite way to tell someone that you disagree with them without calling them liars (in Hebrew/Yiddish), morons and all those other kind words we teach our children not to use.”
I completely agree with you, milchig. It seems that posters of all kinds have difficulty maintaining a respectful tone.
Phrases such as: “holier than thou, super machmir, Taliban, judgemental, mean spriritedness” do not contribute to a respectful dialogue between posters. Yes, this is truly an ugly, unfriendly representation of the Torah world.
Torahis1- I’m saddened that someone slipped so soon and provided an apt example of milchig’s important point. You write that you’ve been “screaming”. Please don’t. We can discuss issues instead of denigrating our conversational partners.
The same can be said for posters who use denigrating language to tar those who maintain more lenient Halachic positions. It is more helpful to discuss the issues; avoid personalizing the discussion. A certainty of your position does not require accusation. Try saying simply, “This is the Halachah, and I feel you are incorrect”.
You are either correct, or incorrect. Neither status precludes dignified expression.September 17, 2008 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #624291shindyMember
Somehow when you can post something with a false name to someone you don’t know, people leave their middos behind. YW should send us all BE NICE stickers to put on our mouse. Just to remind us (me too).September 17, 2008 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #624292
I’m someone who is generally on the recieving end of the vitriol here. I take it in stride. When people here deride my religiosity or impugn my piety and belief in response to my POV, it tells me that I’ve seriously challenged their way of thinking and made them momentarily uncomfortable with their entrenched biases. In short, it tells me that I’ve made my point and made it well.September 17, 2008 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #624293
I agree, and you put it quite well.
The Taliban are in many ways the idealogical stepchildren of the nazis, yemach shemom. Don’t you see the irony of coming to this thread and posting words like those?September 17, 2008 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #624294
Well, I think this is a general problem in life that is exacerbated in the anonimity of web forums. I have seen a total lack of respect for other people’s psak halacha.
One example: when I moved to Brooklyn, I asked a rav about the Brooklyn eruv and was told it is kosher and I can use it. I was happy with this because I grew up in Monsey with an eruv and its so easy to forget that you cannot carry when you grow up with it.
When I encountered people who didnt hold by the eruv they would say things like “There is no eruv – you shouldnt be carrying!” and I would explain to them that yes, there is an eruv though they might not hold by it. There is a big difference. I would get frequent eye rolls and mutters. So are these people able to pasken halacha (no, they cannot – none are Rabbis)? And yet they believe they know more than my Rabbi?? I understand that THEY dont hold by it, but they dont have to deny its existance!
OK, this turned into a rant. My point is that just because your psak says no, doesnt mean everyone holds by the same thing. You can respect someone’s right to follow one path WITHOUT agreeing with what they do.September 17, 2008 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #624297milchigMember
I thank everyone for their comments.
Some of you agree that there needs to be a nicer way to say things while others are so quick so talk about halacha and calling people out and knocking them down.
My posting had nothing to do with halacha which is mostly ben adam to the One Above and everything to so with midos ben adam lchaveiro.
I value that rabbi’s statement and wish everyone a sweet healthy new year and shalom ben adam lchaveiro (no matter what observance level you follow)September 17, 2008 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #624298
“Really? who are u to decide what is against the Torah? And even so, who appointed you to go after them? What does ‘full force’ mean? beating up women on busses? throwing bleach on women? character assasination of musicians? threatening and harassing Rabbonim dealing with child predators?
gimme a break”
This is so unfair and inappropriate. Do you have evidence that veimloachshuv has engaged in or supports violence and harrassment? Is it right to hurl accusations? How did you make the leap from “full force” as written and “bleach”? “Full force” protestations can be written respectfully too.
This type of language is in the same “genre” as “Apikorus” and similar. You may not like the company of those who maintain positions closer to the right, but to me, all individuals who speak with such nastiness are birds of a feather, even as they fight in the flock.September 17, 2008 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #624299intellegentMember
Agree. I would like to add that I think there is a common misconception on this blog. I think many people think that it is not allowed to make fun of and “yell” at people regarding their torah beliefs that may be on a lower standard. And they make sure to defend themselves. (ie. who are you to say what is torah… etc…) But when it comes to talking to people who believe that it is imperative to keep a higher standard in certain areas you can make fun and yell!
In other words, if someone is less frum you must be nice to them but if someone is frum you can treat them like dirt!September 17, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #624300
I think what Torahis1 meant to say is that when someone like veimloachshuv makes a value judgement as to what “go against our holy torah in any which way ” exactly means,
it results in him going after someone ” darf men mocha zein in full force ” it results in inappropriate responses. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion as long as they are following a proper ( whether it be Chareidi, Yeshivish, Chassidish or MO ) Rav and their psak and everyone is entitled to disagree respevtfully.September 17, 2008 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #624301postsemgirlMember
intellegent- I once heard something about the word frum. the “u” is in the middle and above you is “fr”- Fanatically religious. Below you is “M”- modern. It’s all in what “U” are.
This is very sad but it is true.September 17, 2008 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #624302
Regardless of what Torahis1 is attempting “to say”, he is using a language and manner that is a perfect example of the concern milchig brought to the table. This is exactly the point: if you have something to say, do so respectfully. Retain your dignity.
Parenthetically, less chumras, I have found your posts to be respectful, albeit strong at times; that is the ideal presentation in a dialogue of strong opinions. You are able to vehemently disagree (with me, at times :)) without lowering yourself to a shrill, juvenile screaming match.September 17, 2008 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #624303
intellegent – that is not right either! I respect other people’s opinions (and if I have said anything that has offended anyone, I apologize) and recognize that they can practice according to their own path (rabbinically based) without being “wrong.”
Sometimes people asked halachically based questions, and get hashkafic responses or machmir responses stated as “the minimum” (specifically, I am talking more about the tznius threads) and then both sides gets worked up. The more lenient side saying that its not halacha and the machmir side saying it is. Sometimes, it would be nice to hear a more machmir person say something to the effect of “That is the more lenient opinion, I hold by the more stringent” and vice versa for the more lenient opinion.September 17, 2008 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #624304intellegentMember
I suppose that you are referring to the fact that everyone thinks that they are middle of the road. That is human nature.
I hope you didn’t think I was referring specifically to you. I was just saying something that I noticed in general. No need to defend yourself.
You say that it would be nice if the more “machmir” side would say, “That is the more lenient opinion, I hold by the more stringent”. It would also be nice if the more “lenient” side would say that maybe they are wrong and life is all about moving up. Of course maybe their more “lenient” opinion is within the boundaries of Halacha but maybe not. Instead of attacking maybe think that you are wrong just as you would like to think that the more machmir person may be wrong.
Again, this is not referring specifically to you. I did not have any specific posts in mind.September 17, 2008 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #624305bein_hasdorimParticipant
I can only try:
Its a Humorous way of referring to fanatics
It’s in no way meant literally,
at least i hope so, I didnt write it,
just thought it was funny.
I however am anti-fanatics
like self appointed Oisvurfs who join a group
of batlonim to terrorize people.September 17, 2008 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #624307postsemgirlMember
intellegent- no it’s that everyone else is no good and we have to put them downSeptember 17, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #624308ujmParticipant
torah1, she just wants you to do teshuva.September 17, 2008 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #624309
I don’t think I “grossly misunderstood you”; the language you employ is unfortunately easily understood.
I don’t think I can help out further here, so if you don’t know “what I want from” you, then I wish you well.
To those posters who have demonstrated agreement with and understanding of milchig’s position- whether from the right, the left, or the center (and we all think we are the center, don’t we? :)), it can be done! I will use greater care to avoid judgmental labeling, tarring groups, and nasty exaggeration; I am certain others will join in this attempt.
Thank you milchig, and Hatzlachah to us all!September 18, 2008 12:24 am at 12:24 am #624310
I re-read your original post, and can see that you were just commenting that you found those words funny.
It was because of my misunderstanding that I included your name on my post.
Sorry!September 18, 2008 12:49 am at 12:49 am #624311
Calling another Jew a Taliban or ranting about burqas, or calling someone a religious fanatic is out of the bounds of acceptable dialog.
Calling a set of Jews (Chareidim, Chasidim) bad, or saying that they are fanatics or perverts or whatever is also outside acceptable conversation.
It is examples like these that tend to escalate and overheat threads.September 18, 2008 4:25 am at 4:25 am #624312veimloachshuvMember
I see that the rest of the olom already responded to you,so i’ll be mkaim the chazal “siug l’chuchma shtika”, wishing you and the rest of klall yisroel a kesiva v’chasima tova,may you be zoche to join our hashkafa this new year.September 18, 2008 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #624314Will HillParticipant
torahis1, YOU are precisely the kind of vitriolic and hateful poster that these comments are referring to!September 18, 2008 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #624315
I’m baffled by your post, but did not want to ignore you.
If you are not ready to understand the irony of your previous posts, I understand. I have just as much a difficult time with my own weaknesses. I wish you well, and wish all of us Shalom al Yisrael.September 18, 2008 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #624316feivelParticipant
“modern orthodox gedolim”
its very difficult to comment on this phrase without saying something that might anger you.
let me just suggest, though, that i have the feeling, that it is just possible, that perhaps you may have a somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in Klal Yisroel means.September 18, 2008 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #624317
While I completely understand YWN’s desire to be an open forum and intellectually honest (which it successfully is), there are halachas involved prohibiting expressing things like kefira, apikorsus, and the like. Posters like “torahis1” aside from violating all the basic precepts of Torah Judaism, is a hate monger. Is there really any reason his comments should be approved? I vote otherwise.September 18, 2008 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #624318torahis1Member
veimloachshav – thanx for the good wishes.. to you as well. as for joining your collective hashkofos, I would need to lose quite a lot of brain cells in order for that to happen.September 18, 2008 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #624320ujmParticipant
Please. Calling us “holier than thou, super machmir, Taliban, judgemental, mean spririted” is hardly civil on your part. YOU HAVE MUCH INTROSPECTION TO DO ON YOUR PART>September 18, 2008 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #624321
“modern orthodox gedolim”
its very difficult to comment on this phrase without saying something that might anger you.
let me just suggest, though, that i have the feeling, that it is just possible, that perhaps you may have a somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in Klal Yisroel means.
The same might be said of those who denigrate and refuse to recognize the greatness of rabbanim like R. Herschel Schachter, R. Mordechai Willig, R. Michael Rosenzweig, R. Aaron Lichtenstein, or of past giants like R. Joseph Soloveitchik, R. Shlomo Goren, R. Isaac Herzog, R Bernard Revel etc. The same might be said of those who say things like “R. Dovid Lifschitz could have been a gadol but he taught at YU.” People say such things about him, about the Lomze Rav. People say things to the extent that R. Yerucham Gorelick was a gadol despite teaching at YU. Perhaps it is they who have a “somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in klal Yisroel means.”September 18, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #624322
cantoresq, are you implying that you consider R. Shlomo Goren (to pick one from your list) to be some sort of godol?
Please define your definition of Godol.
I noticed lately that every sub-group feels left out unless they take the top 10% of their Rabbis and declare them to be “gedolim.” Otherwise how could they compete with the universally acknowledged Gedolim, who happen to be from outside their hashkofos?
It is similar to how now the Reform/Conservative have co-opted various terms, and have their own “Rosh Yeshivas”, and the like. Its obvious they feel less Jewish unless they too can have it.September 18, 2008 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #624323torahis1Member
I do not characterize all chareidim like that.
I only use those terms in reference to those who speak & behave that way.
those people throw bleach on women,
those people appoint themselves and ban music.
those people that harass Rabbi Twerski.
including anyone who defends thuggery whether they be posting it on this site …or elsewhere.September 18, 2008 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #624324
Indeed I do consider R> Goren to have been a gadol. As to my definition of the term, I’ve never reaqlly thought of how I define it. Give me a few days to ponder it. But in addition to rightly asking me to define a gadol in my parlance, please address my main point.September 18, 2008 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #624325
It’s ironic that in a stream that deals with respect for others ,comments that you make continue to exhibit disdain for others on a personal level. You have your definition of a Godol and you are entitled to it. You are even entitled to disagree with cantoresq. But when you express it as follows ” I noticed lately that every sub-group feels left out unless they take the top 10% of their Rabbis and declare them to be “gedolim.” Otherwise how could they compete with the universally acknowledged Gedolim, who happen to be from outside their hashkofos” you are being condescending resorting to putting down others in order to make yourself feel better. Unless you are a psychiatrist or psychologist, please leave the psychoanalysis to others and not resort to belittling other yidden. Thank you.September 19, 2008 2:34 am at 2:34 am #624326YusselParticipant
I’d like to know why certain topics are forbidden (i.e. censored) on this site. I tried to start a discussion about (I’m afraid to write the topic because I think it will be censored) something and the moderators refused to accept it. What is YWN afraid of, the truth? Why is YWN too cowardly to have open discussions?September 19, 2008 4:56 am at 4:56 am #624327
lesschumras, I disagree with your psychoanalysis of my comment. Moreover, I find your very screen name condescending to all those Yidden who are machmir on halacha.September 19, 2008 5:42 am at 5:42 am #624328
cantoresq, To address your main point, it is necessary to break it into its two components. I agree with you it is wrong to denigrate any proper Rabbi. But as far as “refusing to recognize the greatness”, I’ll have to disagree with you. You can’t, to take R. Goren as an example again, impose on us to accept “the greatness” of someone like that. (We had a long conversation about him a number of months ago.)September 19, 2008 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #624329
apropos to the Joseph/lesschumras dialogue, I’d like t point out that contrary to Joseph’s implication, there are far fewer “universally acknowledged gedeolim” than he might think. For example, I can say for a fact that outside the Litvishe velt, R. Svei is not considered a gadol, nor was R. Gifter. Chassidim didn’t recognize them as anything special since they were not chassidic. Modern Orthodoxy rejected them due to their insutling R. Norman Lamm and YU. R. Schach was similarly rejected by non-chareidim for his countelss charamot and reactionary stances. Indeed for those of you who took a R. Schach cherem seriously, please note I am in cherem from him as I attended Nechama Liebowitz’s shiurim when I was in yeshiva in Israel (this was no small matter, when the Rosh Yeshiva found out, he wanted to expell me. It was only when I threatened to tell everyone back in US why I was expelled, particularly one big donor did he back down). And on a final note the cyclical veneration and disparagement of R. Ovadia Yosef as displayed in the chareidi press renders the entire concept of “Gadolei Yisrael” most hollow.September 19, 2008 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #624330
Just as you are entitled to your view on chumrahs, I am entitled to mine. In the future, I would appreciate that you stop making a mockery of my name ( i.e lesstorah ).
It is childish and brings down the level and tone of these discussions.September 19, 2008 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #624331
In addition, my screen name merely states my position, it is not condescending . It does not say “It is similar to how now the “fill in the blank ” have co-opted various chumrahs , and have their own “chumrahs”, and the like. Its obvious they feel less Jewish unless they too can have chumrahs” . My screen name does not belittle anybody.September 19, 2008 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #624332
Aside from your very screen name being an outright denegration to all those Yidden who fold dear and follow the chumras Chazal and our Chachomim have instituted over the years, you frequently mock Chareidim and insinuate false imputations on a regular basis.
I will not dignify it by providing any examples, but anyone who looks at the threads you have attacked Rabbonim and the like, immediately sees your demagoguery.September 19, 2008 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #624333
Intellegent, I didnt think you were specifically talking about me, but given that using forums as a communication medium is severly lacking ( you can hear inflection, sarcasm etc), I am always nervous that I offend people without meaning to. It was more a shout out to the general public here, especially because I am more modern than most people here.
Also, about your “more lenient” people thinking about whether or not what they are doing is appropriate: when I get a psak halacha and people tell me “that is against halacha” it bothers me. If I am unsure, I would go check, but a little tolerance is always appreciated from everyone.
You can disagree with my psak/opinion/way of life and still respect my right to practice/think/act as I see fit.September 19, 2008 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #624334gavra_at_workParticipant
You have hit the nail on the head. I believe the last one in the US was R’ Moshe. There may be no more until Mashiach (B’mhara B’yamaynu)
How about translating lesschumras into Gemarah Lashon?
Koach D’Hetarah Adif, Rashi Baitza (I believe 2b). Easy to say Assur, not so easy to say Muttar.
I happen to like the screen name.September 19, 2008 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #624335Why Do I Even BotherMember
Since you picked out any one name of the Rabbis listed by Cantoresq, I am assuming you feel the same about all the people on his list.
Can you tell me what YOUR definition of a Gadol is?
Because you dont have to like or even approve of YU to know that R’ Herschel Schachter is a tremendous Gadol B’Torah and has unparalled middos. People from all different walks of life flock to hear him speak when he comes to any neighborhood. Is he not “good enough” for you??
Ah Gutten Erev ShabbosSeptember 19, 2008 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #624336
There is nothing personal about what joseph said regarding who is a Gadol. It is a fact there are (unfortunately) only a small number of Gedolim despite every yodle these days trying to make their favorite Rabbi into a Godol (usually for the purpose of attacking the real Gedolim, under the cover that they “too” are a godol.)
I also agree that the “lesschumras” screen name is at minimum a subtle attack on chareidim, and all the people who keep chumras. Who exactly are you saying should have “less chumras”, Mr. lesschumras? And why do you demand they have less chumras? And who are YOU to so demand? Answer: attack, attack, attack (when your ideas are failing.)
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