February 2, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #594730
I dont think we respect yeshiva bachurim enough!!! they might have some faults but their torah holds up the world!!!February 2, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #737126
“yosef oiy yosiffel chap dich oon ah shtrick ich vel dich aheim firin tzim tatten tzirrick”February 2, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #737127
maybe translate for the english speaking folkFebruary 2, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #737128cantoresqMember
Respect is not an entitlement. It is earned.February 2, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #737129
your right and the fact that they hold up the world is enough to make them deserve the respect!February 2, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #737130
it’s a song from the Yossef Shpiel
“yosef oh yosef grab on to this rope so that i may lead you back to your fathers house”February 2, 2011 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #737131SJSinNYCMember
Maybe we should afford the hardworking people more respect. The money they earn is what upholds the bachurim’s ability to learn by supporting them.February 2, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #737132
Yissachar and Zevulin-Equally importantFebruary 2, 2011 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #737133Derech HaMelechMember
Been here done this.February 2, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #737134
to the king: cant talk about this enough and of course we have to respect the balabatim that fund the learning but i think ppl generaly respect the rich man enough but the learning guy who is sweating over a gemarah is considered second class. why??February 2, 2011 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #737135
Olam Hasheker-Olam Ha’HaphuchFebruary 2, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #737136
I always say that Im ain torah ain kemach is the least quoted line in Pirkei Avos while im ain kemach ain torah is one of the most.
I do think that there are a loud few who ruin it for the rest of the yeshiva bochurim.February 2, 2011 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #737137
kavod – Please elaborate on whivh area bouchrim are not getting enough respectFebruary 2, 2011 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #737138
hey what about all students in school who are not necessarily yeshiva bachurim who are sitting there learning limudei kadosh as well? That torah is also something to be respected!
>O<613)February 3, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #737139apushatayidParticipant
I’m confused. Who doesn’t respect yeshiva bachurim “enough”? How much IS enough? For that matter how do you propose this respect should be displayed?February 3, 2011 12:45 am at 12:45 am #737140
While it is true that the world exists for the sake of the Torah, learning Torah does not exempt any of us from acting with fiscal responsibililty for our families.February 3, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #737141
I just think that alot of working people feel they are better and deserve respect from kollel guys and yeshivabachurim while they dont have to have respect for them.February 3, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #737142
I just think that
Well, I just think that I should be the king of the United Kingdom… but that doesn’t make it so.
The WolfFebruary 3, 2011 2:16 am at 2:16 am #737143apushatayidParticipant
What drives that thinking? Something you experienced? Witnessed?February 3, 2011 2:23 am at 2:23 am #737145
kavod, Yeshiva Bochrim who make a Kiddush Hashem and put into practice what they learn and try to emulate Gedolim ARE respected.February 3, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #737146
do you respect yeshiva guys that smoke? prob not right?February 3, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #737147
kavod, do you suggest we should or shouldnt respect yeshiva guys that smoke? Please explain your reason.February 3, 2011 2:35 am at 2:35 am #737148
yeah that i would have to think about. It is very hard to respect someone who is doing the wrong thing! We do see the good they are doing though and still admire their learning….
>O<613)February 3, 2011 2:35 am at 2:35 am #737149
do you respect yeshiva guys that smoke? prob not right?
You *can* respect someone even if you don’t approve of everything they do. My mother smokes and although I hate that about her, I respect her immensely.
Or is it your opinion that because they are yeshiva bochrim that I cannot disagree with anything they do?
The WolfFebruary 3, 2011 3:01 am at 3:01 am #737150
Yes im sorry Wolf didn’t mean any offense by that and you are right it just may be harder to respect someone who is doing something you disapprove of. We just need to work harder to respect them. But a yeshiva bochur who smokes is different then someone you need to respect i have no chiyuv there what so ever unless some buckey in halacha tells me otherwise…
>O<613February 3, 2011 3:47 am at 3:47 am #737151
Yes im sorry Wolf didn’t mean any offense
I don’t know why you’re apologizing… I was responding to KH, not you. In any event, there’s no need to apologize for disagreeing with me.
But a yeshiva bochur who smokes is different then someone you need to respect i have no chiyuv there what so ever unless some buckey in halacha tells me otherwise…
Why does it have to be all or nothing? Is smoking *so* heinous that it makes it impossible to respect someone regardless of any other good he does? Can you not respect him for his learning and his dedication to it even while you disapprove of his smoking?
The WolfFebruary 3, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #737152
Wolf – I would translate that into English but I can’t figure out what she was trying to say. It’s been happening alot since she became senior. I hear it passes.
(Candy’s mom hijacking her screen name while she isn’t paying attention)February 3, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #737153
kavod – I would not disrespect a Yeshiva bochur that smokes, more then I would disrespect a Baal Habus that smokes.February 3, 2011 4:04 am at 4:04 am #737154TheGoqParticipant
I think respect comes with age, now they are studying lets see how they use what they have learned, i’m sure learning is arduous in its own way but let them progress and use their knowledge in a practical way weather through teaching or rabbunus or kiruv, i think if you are spending year after year in study it should lead somewhere constructive.February 3, 2011 4:51 am at 4:51 am #737155
do you respect yeshiva guys that smoke? prob not right?
It probably is NOT right that they smoke (next time, punctuate your sentences, I figure you really meant to put a comma after the word “not”). Actually, there is no probably about it. It is antithetical to the Torah that they are learning, that they smoke, flying in the face of everything that we know today about the hazards of first-hand AND second-hand smoking.February 3, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #737156Midwest2Participant
Another slant – why don’t yeshiva guys respect the rest of us enough? After all, one of the things you’re supposed to learn in yeshiva is respect for other people. If the yeshiva guy looks down on the working guy who’s paying the bills because he is studying Torah and the working guy is only kovea ittim, then maybe the working guy has a taineh.
Something else I’ve seen – a bachur is home for Shabbos, and corrects his father at the Shabbos table in a very superior manner. Since when is it even permitted, much less simple derech eretz, to “correct” your father/mother openly in public?
Maybe the shoe is really on the other foot, and it’s the yeshiva bachur who needs a little musar.February 3, 2011 5:14 am at 5:14 am #737157☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
i think if you are spending year after year in study it should lead somewhere constructive.
The learning itself is constructive (huge understatement) even if it does not lead to kiruv, rabbanus, teaching, etc. It’s called Torah Lishma.February 3, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #737158
Midwest – You must agree that the *MAIN* tafkid of a yid on this world is torah. Thus being yeshiva bouchrim are fullfilling this, no doubt on that. However you are definetly right that other should not be looked down upon for this reason.February 3, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #737159dunnoMember
If he deserves respect then yes.February 3, 2011 5:38 am at 5:38 am #737160observanteenMember
I think that the guys who don’t adequetly respect Torah simply feel a bit jealous of those who can sacrifice stuff luxury and live on a tighter budget. I hope to marry a Ben Torah, and I’m willing to sacrifice. I will IY”H work so we can make ends meet and I know I won’t always be able to buy whatever my heart desires. I think that a Torahdike atmosphere in one’s home makes all the difference.February 3, 2011 5:39 am at 5:39 am #737161commonsenseParticipant
sorry, but a bocher that is learning lishmah would not think himself deserving of overt shows of respect. look at stories of gedolim. When these yeshiva bochrim are at the levels of gedolim then they will deserve the respect you think they are owed now. btw, all people deserve basic respect be it yeshiva bocher or workings stiff.February 3, 2011 5:43 am at 5:43 am #737162TheGoqParticipant
yes daas if they are learning lishma than that is great, but if they are learning and living off the sacrifices of others and don’t really love learning but they are doing it because everyone else does it than that is a problemFebruary 3, 2011 5:56 am at 5:56 am #737163observanteenMember
“sorry, but a bocher that is learning lishmah would not think himself deserving of overt shows of respect.”
Well, how long would YOU go on without being appreciated for your hard work??? Besides, we’re not talking about overdoing it. Just give them their WELL DESERVED credit. Everyone needs chizuk once in a while.February 3, 2011 6:20 am at 6:20 am #737164
observanteen, any Yeshivah Bochur who regularly shows proper respect and appreciation to his mother when she makes his breakfast and/or does his laundry, and his father for giving him his allowance or helping him out somehow and the clerk at the store, etc for whatever they do for him, should be shown appreciation as well. One hand washes the other.February 3, 2011 6:33 am at 6:33 am #737165shlomozalmanMember
The point is that a learning yeshiva boy deserves our respect until proven otherwise. If I have a yeshiva boy over for shabbos and when he arrives he opens up my seforim, he gains extra respect, even reverence. If he sits at the table and attacks me for being a working man (yes, it has happened), he loses any respect I had for him. But he starts out with nothing to prove.After all,he is a learning boy and isn’t that praiseworthy in itself?February 3, 2011 7:17 am at 7:17 am #737166
If the comma is after not, then it would mean probably not (respect them), correct?
As Wolfish said, you can still respect them, while still disapproving of one thing that they do. Do you only respect perfect people?February 3, 2011 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #737167wanderingchanaParticipant
Just wait ’til you’re in shidduch parsha – shadchanim of girls who have been told they HAVE to have a learning boy will be banging down your door.
But if you get all the kavod you’re looking for now, what do you have to look forward to when you keep reaching higher levels of learning?
Which begs the question, are you doing it for kavod or l’shem shamayim?February 3, 2011 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #737168gavra_at_workParticipant
I respect the Tinokos shel Bais Rabban, who are the real supporters of the world.
Only Tinokos shel Bais Rabban will sit and learn when we are building the Bais HaMikdash (B’Karov).
I also respect those mothers (and fathers) who send their children out to learn, and work hard so that they can send their child to yeshiva, and act as role models so that their children will want to be connected to the Rebbono Shel Olam.
In addition, I respect those who make it possible for the Tinokos shel Bais Rabban to learn (both the Rabbaim & the Tomchim).February 3, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #737169SJSinNYCMember
Wait, only rich working men deserve respect? Don’t the men and woman who struggle to earn a living and give $18 or $36 or even $1 to help support Torah (and by Torah, I don’t necessarily mean just Kollel) deserve respect?
Sof kol sof, people deserve respect for who they are. I try to assume everyone deserves respect unless they show me otherwise. I don’t know why a Yeshiva bachur moves up in ranks. A gadol? Sure.February 3, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #737170
Do you only respect perfect people? “
Seriously???? iyhbu, I am really not certain why you posted that remark to me. Have I ever at any time given the indication to you or anyone else that I do not try to be respectful to everyone?
My “comma” remark was somewhat tongue in cheek, but simply pointing out that the sentence could be understood in two very different ways, based on the lack of punctuation (btw, that is a lesson for all of us about the importance of properly punctuating a written sentence, in order to prevent a misunderstanding). That was not a suggestion that the poster was imperfect.February 3, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #737171mytakeMember
The BY girls in particular, are taught to treat their brothers and husbands like G-d, as a way of showing Kabod HaTorah.
I’ve heard of husbands who will not take out the garbage, because it’s not Kavod HaTorah. And there are yeshiva bachurim who won’t wash a single plate, or sweep up a floor because it’s not Kavod HaTorah. These are homes where the mother/sister/wife is taught that she’s actually showing respect for Torah by treating him like G-d, and they won’t even ask the guy to help with these tasks cuz it’s not Kavod for a Ben Torah. Please.
Respecting a ben torah does not mean being his servant. And it really gets under my skin when these girls go along with it.February 3, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #737172
“Actually, there is no probably about it.”
From your post I understood that you were saying there is no doubt that we should not respect bochurim who smoke. I agree that smoking is not the right thing to do. However I wouldn’t say that just because someone does something which I don’t respect, I can’t respect them as a person. I can respect them for everything else they do. Like I said nobody is perfect. Therefore just because a bochur smokes does not mean that there is no question that you shouldn’t respect him. He could be very wonderful otherwise.
I noted the comma remark not because you tried to clarify the post (which is quite understandable), but because I wanted to make sure I was understanding what you were saying.February 3, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #737173wanderingchanaParticipant
mytake: But wouldn’t that be idolatry? Treating him like G-d?February 3, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #737174mytakeMember
Ask them.February 3, 2011 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #737175☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
but if they are learning and living off the sacrifices of others and don’t really love learning but they are doing it because everyone else does it than that is a problem
If they don’t really love learning, than the probability is great that they are not really learning. I am not referring to “sitting in kollel” or “being in yeshiva” lishma. I am talking about “learning” lishma, which does not require a goal or outcome of kiruv, rabbanus, chinuch, etc.
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