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Is there any heter to shop in retail stores that display forbidden images of women? It is certain that you will see them. And what about buying prodcuts that display inappropriate women on the packaging.
(i.e. Macy’s and many others.)
Good question, Joseph.
Any other pressing questions on your mind today?
What kind of heter do you think someone can create?
What kind of heter do you think someone can create?
buying a costume for purim (there are sometimes pritzus on top of the webpage)
buying something that your wife really wants (some sort of perfume)
Do you need a heter to walk in the street? Are you going into the store to look at the images? I don’t get the question. Why do you need to get a heter to shop in a department store, was there an issur not to?
forbidden images of women?
There is no such thing, unless you are talking about statues of Isis, Kali or Athena.
Good question, and one I asked my wife, when I saw the Hollister bag.
And to think, people have an issue with the (V.S.) pink striped bag
Abe Cohen; I assume (actually, you can’t assume anything for the famous reason.) that you consider yourself a “Holy Man”. Interestingly. That “Sheilah” never occurred to me. Or 99.9% of the population. Why do you feel a need or desire to patronize such an establishment where “Assurdig” images are displayed.
Metro,
Have you ever bought anything in the airport
actually as funny as this sounds walking in the street does ned a heter. i cant remember the mekor but basically youre allowed to do ordinary things in oreder to live a normal life, and if as a result you actually see something your not accountable. if you continue to look when you shouldnt then you get toasted.
I will continue to shop at Hot Topic, thank you very much.
But really, if you feel holier by not walking into these stores, then by all means, don’t. But those who do shop at these stores should feel fine continuing to do so, and shouldn’t be criticized for it.
in toronto we got goyish supermarkets to have checkouts sans magazines.
The frum grocery store I shop at covers the images of cereal boxes with white stickers. IMO, that’s going a bit overboard.
If a person has an issue shopping in a goyishe store where there are “forbidden images”, don’t shop there. We don’t run the world, we are only less than 1% of the population. In my most honest opinion (and I am probably wrong here), I believe the best way for someone to deal with such problems is to build a resistance to them. Get used to the fact that you will see an indecent picture of a woman. What do you do? LOOK AWAY! Learn how to deal with it instead of taking the easy way out by covering them.
But what do I know–I’m not a guy so I probably don’t get it.
The frum grocery store I shop at covers the images of cereal boxes with white stickers. IMO, that’s going a bit overboard.
What do you mean overboard?
ca – Why would that be muttar?
popa_bar_abba, I just don’t understand why a picture of a woman’s head/face needs to be blocked. If she wasn’t dressed modestly, I’d get it. But she’s just smiling…
if its for hanaah its always ossur. in response to the resistance argument the story of the satmar rav is well known.
“in response to the resistance argument the story of the satmar rav is well known.”
What story might that be?
” I’m not a guy so I probably don’t get it. “
Wow, Queen B – Talk about an understatement.
Take it from a guy; you females have no idea what we face. Doesnt matter if we’re 5 or 105. Males are always at risk.
Do I think the cereal boxes need to be covered? Perhaps not.
Do I think its wise to take a male to a mall?
Lets put it this way; its a real risk.
“I just don’t understand why a picture of a woman’s head/face needs to be blocked.”
Remember the brouhaha over the hemishe publication that edited hillary clinton out of a photo? I and a lot of other people agree with you, but many disagree. I cant explain their reasoning though.
Regarding these “images”, doesnt the midrash describe some rather “forbidden” images that shlomo hamelech had put on the walls of the beis hamikdash? I vaguely remember my sisters discussing this when they were in seminary and learned sefer melachim. Its been a while.
basically youre allowed to do ordinary things in oreder to live a normal life, and if as a result you actually see something your not accountable
The Gemorah in Bava Basra regarding “Leka Darka Achrina”.
How does Joseph come up with these warped topics?
He’s got one sick mind….
i tried explaining it to my wife. imagine being starving all the time. like im gonna die type of starving. and theres a big plate of burgers. not only cant you eat them, even smelling them is ossur k? now try that most all the time. and the story with the s rav is that someone said its no big deal to shake a hand/see a woman, why do you make a big deal? the rav sais- go walk barefoot in the desert. replied- no way! my soles will be scorched! replied- but the arabs do it all day. replied- but my feet are sensetive. repplies- thats how my neshomo is, and i want to keep it that way. (not verbatim)
Ferd – Why the need to make leytzunus out of another poster?
Okay, sorry if I offended anyone.
The only reason for being “asur” would be if there are two options one with the bad images and one without because then there is ???? ???? ??????
For those who want to know the halachah, it’s quite simple:
(a) A man is never allowed to gaze at a woman with intent to derive pleasure, even if she is fully covered.
(b) If one tefach (four inches) of a part of her body that should be covered is exposed (e.g. her sleeves end four inches above the elbow), one may not look at her at all, even without intent to derive pleasure.
Why then may a man walk in the street? Only because he has no choice.
(I’m sorry but I don’t have the time to look up all the sources now.)
Yoval, the answer is ???? ???? ??????
Why then may a man walk in the street? Only because he has no choice.
You do have a choice not to patronize the retailers or products that have this issue. So that heter wouldn’t be applicable here.
I have a question: If a guy looks at a girl specifically for pleasure (she’s dressed perfectly modest), and she knows he’s doing it, is she sinning?
Also, does the same go for women for looking at half dressed men? Women have a yetzer hara for this, too, you know…
I would send your mother, sister, or wife to shop for you.
Coffe Addict; In answer to your question, Yes. I bought things many times at the airport and other places when there was a necessity to do that. But I never had (or have) a problem. I go to a store for the purpose of shopping, not staring at the posters on the walls or on shopping bags. The poster, or poser of this question apparently does.
Im just thinking out loud but….
how is going to a store with the sole intention of shopping, when one knows for sure there will be pritzus around, any different than going to the beach ? There are other stores that dont have pritzus around, and there is always the possibility of ordering online from that specific store (to get around the issue of nidda in the water, assume they arent going swimming but want to enjoy the boardwalk during the day/ volleyball)
I was in the supermarket the other day trying to decide between two boxes of cereal and I decided to pick the one that did not have pritzus on it. Leka darka achrina is a very hard thing to pasken. On the one hand, we are allowed to live “normal” lives, on the other hand, if something is not necessary and causes an issur, it is assur. Defining “necessary” is the hardest part. In this particular case I really couldn’t care less which cereal to choose so I chose the one without pritzus. But what if I davka wanted that one, am I allowed to buy it or am I mechuyav to pass on it since there are other choices even though I don’t like the other choices as much? What if I have a child screaming for the other one?
Another story that comes to mind is a friend of mine was giving somebody driving directions. He mentioned that the fastest way was to take a certain road but that road has some bad billboards so he suggests taking a different route even though it could add a few minutes to the drive. This really struck me because I always wonder why people are in such a rush when driving. I see people swerving between lanes and wonder how much time they actually save and what risk they are putting themselves and others into to save a few minutes and often they will hit traffic down the road and not save any time anyway. In this case, the person was davka suggesting to add a few minutes to the drive to avoid pritzus. Those people who are always in a hurry would never think of this and even after hearing the reason might scoff and say that it is an extra, unnecessary, holier-than thou, chumra. But is it? There is a halacha of leka darcka achrina and here there is clearly another derech. Does the extra few minutes take away it’s status as a daarka achrina? Every case is different but it is… something to think about. (Sorry Rabbi Salomon I had to do that)
The problem applies to online shopping too, as many otherwise innocent e-commerce websites use untznius pictures to entice male shoppers.
Exactly,
I think that’s the correct chiluk, why is the op shopping
Exactly,
I think that’s the correct chiluk, why is the op shopping (is it to look at pritzus or to buy things)
coffee: It’s okay to look at pritzus if that wasn’t the purpose of your visit or intent? (If even before you came, you knew it would/might be there.)
speaking of billboards, how do people manage to work in Manhattan, daily, for years, surrounded in every direction by shmutz.
The passuk says lo sisuru, so I think its a different type of riyah if ur looking for pleasure or not (I might be wrong though)
heter d’shiksa
42, not necessarily. Most people are not in an actual rush. They just can’t stand the idea of being stuck behind others, or being interrupted by a red light.
“Do I think its wise to take a male to a mall?
Lets put it this way; its a real risk.”
Some of my friends look at me like I’m nuts when I tell them I won’t take my little brother to the mall. Even though he’s pretty young now, I don’t want him to start going at all cuz then I won’t know when or how to get him to stop. Glad to hear that I’m not overdoing it.
As I girl, I don’t understand how difficult it is for a guy, but I know this much: I wouldn’t want my husband seeing the models displayed all over that place. So iy”H I will do everything I can to keep my sons away from there. For their wives sake, let their eyes and neshomos stay sensitised.
To those who cannot understand the difference between passing someone on the street and a picture, here is what I wrote on a different thread some while ago:
There is absolutely no comparison between passing someone on the street and seeing their picture on your page. Besides the obvious fact that on the street the person is part of the general scenery and you are looking where you are stepping, on a screen your eye is focused on the object in front of you. That is the equivalent to walking up to a woman in the street and staring her straight in the face.
The same applies to any picture. If you want to compare the street to a picture, compare it to a picture of a street, or a picture of several people.
To answer the Queen’s question,
How would she be sinning by his Aveiros. However, if she would be standing there for that purpose, that would indeed be a sin, and not just Lifnei Iver.
And the answer to the second question is, if it is for a purpose of Taava then, yes. I believe it is not automatic.
That is why you should shop online with pictures disables when possible. For the specific item you are looking to buy you can show just that picture.
Thanks for answering me, HaLeiVi 🙂
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