Return policy difference based on where you live.

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  • #618328
    TheGoq
    Participant

    There is an online childrens clothes site that has an altered return policy if you live in Lakewood , Passaic, Brooklyn, Monsey and Monroe for everyone else you can get a complete refund if unhappy but if you live in one of these places can only get store credit or an exchange.

    #1178043
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its owned by a Frum company, so you cannot claim they are Anti-Semites

    #1178044
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which site is this?

    #1178045
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I’m sure there’s some kind of practical reason for it.

    #1178046

    I agree with ZD and LU (I don’t know if the owner is correct, but I think she made a pure business decision).

    Will she anger enough customers to not be beneficial to her bottom line? Who knows.

    #1178047
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    There was probably some reason why she can’t offer the full refund to people in certain places but felt that she either could or had to in others. It’s totally legitimate, as long as everyone knows about it and she’s not hiding it.

    #1178048

    perhaps too many from this list of communites were returning tons of it after trying it on & it wasnt worth the owners hassle just to try 10 in order to buy 1 or 2

    #1178049

    i know of a certain large business that moved its location out to another town cause the people who lived in their original location were only coming to them mostly for their sales & hardly buying any other regular items with it thus the large company was not making too much in that location to be worth it for them.

    #1178050

    you really don’t know or is this one of those news stories we read and then make up changes for?

    #1178051
    Wisey
    Participant

    Some Jews are cheap/smart so instead of renting they buy and return for free. Companies may know this and disallow it in Jewish areas

    #1178052

    wisey

    that is dishonest & pure stealing. when you know in advance you will be returning it right after using it. Versus a wedding gown bought & used already but returned not because not needed anymore but actually for an honest reason of problem with it

    #1178053

    The news story is not necessary. The policy is on their website.

    Wisey, the returns could all be legitimate, but if there are enough of them, it’s not worth it for the stores to allow them.

    #1178055
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Unfortunately, people treat the stores as gemach. My sister and her friends do it all the time. They “buy” a dress for a simcha and then return it. The Wal-Mart near Monticello was treated by bungalow families as a toy gemach. Taking advantage of Walmarts liberal return policies, toys were purchased at the beginning of the summer, returned at the end.

    Giving only store credit deters this practice. The owner of the Boot Park dress shop where my wife bought a dress told her she offers store credit only because she was tired of being a gemach ( and the returnees didn’t even bother to have the dresses cleaned before returning them)

    #1178056
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont know how the story broke, My personal guess is someone saw the policy and thought it was anti-semetic not knowing the company was frum and it went viral. It was a bit unusual policy and eventually it was picked up by the mainstream media.

    Meanwhile people were debating and orignally condeming this company until they realized it was a frum company.

    We have debated things that arent exactly against halacha, and might not even be against the law, but dont pass the smell test. This policy is probsbly the result of such things.

    People were probably buying their clothes for a simcha and then returning the clothes after the simcha, thinking it was OK

    #1178057
    Participant

    I decided to look at the return policy using the WayBack Machine. The page at first had no such list, then a list of 3 cities and then 5 cities.

    #1178058
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    People, this thread is becoming pure Motzi Shem Ra on Am Yisrael!!!

    #1178059
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Lu, why is making people aware of murky, quasi illegal practices motzei Shem Ra?

    #1178060
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Some of the posters wrote that many Jews as opposed to non-Jews engage in these practices. That is motzi shem ra on Am Yisrael. It is particularly dangerous to write such a thing since it feeds into the already existing Antisemitic stereotypes. This is the Internet – the entire world can read what is written here! It is a terrible thing to malign Am Yisrael to the goyim! During the Holocaust, the Nazis took things from the Jewish newspapers and used them to spread Antisemitism, leading to more Jews being murdered. And that was even before Internet!

    #1178061
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    leschumras: I am not sure about “murky, quasi illegal practices”.

    NYS:

    REFUNDS

    NYC:

    Attention: New York City Businesses

    Important Information about Refunds

    State law now requires that all businesses selling to consumers post a refund

    policy. For consumer businesses in New York City, this refund posting obligation

    applies both to sales of consumer goods and consumer services.

    While stores can set their own refund policies, the sign must state any and all

    conditions or limitations to getting a refund. For example:

    ? Businesses must also disclose whether the refund will be in cash, credit, or

    store credit only.

    ? If proof of purchase is required for a refund, the sign must say so.

    on request.

    Failure to post a refund policy is a violation of the law. In addition, if a business fails to

    post a refund policy, it must accept a return within 30 days of purchase as long as the

    merchandise is not used or damaged and the consumer can verify the date of

    purchase with a receipt or other proof of purchase that the business uses. The

    business must give the consumer the choice of cash or credit.

    It seems to me that under NYS and NYC rules the store/website can have different rules as long as they are posted.

    #1178062
    Joseph
    Participant

    The real issue is that the site is engaging in religious discrimination, if you’re looking at it from a secular legal viewpoint. Sure they’re trying to mask it by referring to it by geographical restrictions but it is obvious who they’re targeting. It would be no different than having a more restrictive return policy for blacks by limiting it to Harlem, Bedford-Stuyvesant and other highly densely black populated neighborhoods rather than saying blacks specifically. The law doesn’t permit discrimination if you target the victims in a non-direct manner.

    It makes no difference, legally, if the discrimination against Orthodox Jews is being done by an Orthodox Jew or if the discrimination against blacks is being done by a black owner.

    #1178063
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Is based on neighborhood or city? If its neighborhood then i agree with you if it is based on city then I don’t believe it is discrimination.

    #1178064
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It said Lakewood, Lakewood is a city

    #1178065
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, since they are Jewish, we have a chiyuv to be “dan l’kaf zchus”.

    #1178066
    Participant

    It said Lakewood, Lakewood is a cithy [sic]

    I know, I’m also wrong for using the term “city” in my previous post but if you want to get technical the only city on the list is Passaic. Brooklyn is a borough, Lakewood is a township, Monroe is a town, and Monsey is a hamlet.

    #1178067
    Joseph
    Participant

    Neighborhood or city makes no difference. It is the intent that makes a legal difference. If the intent is to exclude a certain religious demographic, it is clearly illegal. Even if it is couched in geographic terms where said religious demographic is prevalent.

    #1178068
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you’re missing the point. The victim is frum online retailer aho had to come up with a way to deter the shopper’s who treat the business as a gemach.

    #1178069
    Joseph
    Participant

    LC: You’re a big dina d’malchusa kanai. You should be the first one upset that the company is violating dina d’malchusa by discriminating against Orthodox Jews.

    #1178070

    If they were worried about it being treated as a gemach, all they needed to do was make a policy that they only take back items in new condition with the tags on.

    The fact that there are more conditions than that indicates that they are trying to cut down on all returns, including wrong sizes, changes of mind, and the item not looking as expected.

    #1178071
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod: I’m being rhetorical here. I don’t think they’re violating dina d’malchusa, even though I do think they’re violating U.S. anti-discrimination laws. I don’t think dina d’malchusa applies to financial/dinei mamonus between two Jews. So I’m just pointing out that they’re in violation of secular law as an interesting observation. I don’t necessarily hold it against them. (I haven’t yet thought it out from a halachic perspective, but offhand don’t think it is halachicly problematic.)

    #1178072
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If they were worried about it being treated as a gemach, all they needed to do was make a policy that they only take back items in new condition with the tags on.

    The fact that there are more conditions than that indicates that they are trying to cut down on all returns, including wrong sizes, changes of mind, and the item not looking as expected.

    I have mentioned before that I sell online for parnassah. While I never heard of this company before and do not have such polices. Unfortunatly DY your plan doesnt work

    In a regular Bricks and Mortor store, when someone returns something and it looks used or the tags are removed, you just refuse the return , However online its much more difficult as you are in possesion of the item and the buyer could file a chargeback via paypal or his credit card and even deny the tags were removed and there isnt much you can do. At least the item is in your posssesion and you wont lose more.

    Ive been there were an unauthorized return was made and after discussing it with other online sellers, They agreed it was better to keep the item and give the refund otherwise not only could you be out the item, you could be out the money and the credit card companies and paypal generally are pro-buyer, not pro-seller

    #1178073
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    even though I do think they’re violating U.S. anti-discrimination laws.

    I don’t think that the five areas listed create a class. Noting that other heavily Jewish areas such as South Fallsburg, Kew Gardens Hills, the Five Towns, Teaneck, University Heights, West Rogers Park and Pico are not on the list, a judge would have a hard time concluding that there is religious discrimination, even on the basis of location.

    #1178074
    Joseph
    Participant

    I addressed your point, gavra. They specifically chose the most densely Orthodox populated areas, specifically with the intent because those areas are densely Orthodox without them overly affecting non-Orthodox customers. The other towns you cited are less densely Orthodox and have a larger percentage of a non-Orthodox/non-Jewish population.

    #1178075
    Joseph
    Participant

    Any judge looking at the list of towns will immediately notice it is specifically targeting Orthodox Jews.

    #1178076

    “They specifically chose the most densely Orthodox populated areas, specifically with the intent because those areas are densely Orthodox without them overly affecting non-Orthodox customers. “

    And you know this to be a fact because….you thought of it so it must be?

    It is not discrimination to target a population that has a record of doing what they claim. If the population happens to be frum, or white or black, so be it.

    Do we know that they didn’t keep records of every sale and return during every season for every demographic? Do we KNOW that they didn’t make this policy after conversations with individuals who insisted on finding loopholes? Do we KNOW that they didn’t do this as a last resort?

    P.S.I’m still sick to my stomach thinking that there are even communities who have people like this in them. It’s really hard to focus on what policies the store may have put into place to protect their merchandise.

    #1178077
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I addressed your point, gavra. They specifically chose the most densely Orthodox populated areas, specifically with the intent because those areas are densely Orthodox without them overly affecting non-Orthodox customers. The other towns you cited are less densely Orthodox and have a larger percentage of a non-Orthodox/non-Jewish population.

    Passaic? Not even close.

    Any judge looking at the list of towns will immediately notice it is specifically targeting Orthodox Jews.

    A specific subset, while not targeting other similar Orthodox Jews. Not illegal. That’s even if they specifically targeted Orthodox Jews, vs. specific ZIP Codes irrespective of religion (which would certainly be allowed).

    #1178079
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    This thread is becoming major motzi shem ra on Am Yisrael and can cause a lot of damage!

    As I wrote above:

    Some of the posters wrote that many Jews as opposed to non-Jews engage in these practices. That is motzi shem ra on Am Yisrael. It is particularly dangerous to write such a thing since it feeds into the already existing Antisemitic stereotypes. This is the Internet – the entire world can read what is written here! It is a terrible thing to malign Am Yisrael to the goyim! During the Holocaust, the Nazis took things from the Jewish newspapers and used them to spread Antisemitism, leading to more Jews being murdered. And that was even before Internet!

    #1178080
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As a side note, I dont think this policy really is enforceable. if someone from those communities returns an item, they would be forced by the credit card companies or Paypal to take it back

    #1178081

    I have mentioned before that I sell online for parnassah. While I never heard of this company before and do not have such polices. Unfortunatly DY your plan doesnt work

    In a regular Bricks and Mortor store, when someone returns something and it looks used or the tags are removed, you just refuse the return , However online its much more difficult as you are in possesion of the item and the buyer could file a chargeback via paypal or his credit card and even deny the tags were removed and there isnt much you can do. At least the item is in your posssesion and you wont lose more.

    Ive been there were an unauthorized return was made and after discussing it with other online sellers, They agreed it was better to keep the item and give the refund otherwise not only could you be out the item, you could be out the money and the credit card companies and paypal generally are pro-buyer, not pro-seller

    Is your experience with direct online sales? Ebay and Amazon may protect the buyer, but this is not through them.

    Also, what you’re saying doesn’t seem to make sense. If not accepting worn items won’t work because the payment companies will back the buyer, the same will hold true for all of the other policies, as you pointed out yourself in your more recent post.

    So I maintain that their policies may indicate a higher level of returns, but not specifically of worn items.

    #1178082
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I sell both ways Direct and via Amazon/ebay however many people use Paypal as a credit card Processor even via their own website.

    What generally happens when there is a buyer/seller dispute it becomes a he said/She said circumstance and the proof goes to the SELLER to prove he is correct. You can win, but its tough. Generally unless the item is destroyed or doesnt show up, the seller will lose

    Even if its just a return, buyers expect you to pay for return shipping and you generally have to offer Free shipping, So a person who does this is stealing from the seller. Most people think that a business is bigger than they really are.

    #1178083
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    We have no idea why they targeted these populations. Any guesses are pure uneducated speculation, and we have no right to be making such negative assumptions about others.

    Amongst other things, the assumptions being made here are absolutely ridiculous! We are talking about a population (the Orthodox population) that has been taught to be super-careful about doing anything that resembles stealing!

    The average person in the US does not have the concepts of honesty that we have.

    I once took a taxi to a Shloshim. I was running late and had trouble finding the place. In my confusion, I forgot to pay the driver until I was already there and I couldn’t leave in the middle. When I got back late at night, I called the taxi driver and tracked him down. We arranged that when he was in my neighborhood, he would call me and let me know so I could go down and pay him. As I handed him the money, I apologized profusely. He said, “It’s fine. As soon as I saw you forgot to pay me, I knew that you would find a way to get the money to me. I know that YOU (this was in hebrew, so he used the plural for you, meaning that he was referring to Chareidim in general) go to the ends of the earth to pay someone back a few shekalim!

    Apparently it is known that Frum Jews are exceedingly careful about honesty. Take it from a typical not-religious taxi driver in Israel who has enough experience in these matters to know!

    If you want to see more about the honesty of Frum Jews, google the words, “Rabbi Craig’s list money”.

    If someone is not Jewish and hasn’t been taught the things that we are taught about honesty on a daily basis from the time we are young, there would be no reason for them to be extra-diligent about honesty. The natural attitude is “if you can get away with it, why not?” I once worked for a not Jewish telemarketing company. I was concerned about the honesty of some of the things that were done. When I expressed my concerns to my supervisor, she told me that it was legal, and she couldn’t understand why that answer didn’t satisfy me. If you haven’t had a Yeshiva education, your attitude is going to be “if it’s legal and I can get away with it, why shouldn’t I do it?” Contrast that with the average Yeshiva graduate who is inundated on a regular basis with stories of Gedolim who were super-stringent about matters of honesty.

    One of the most commonly told over stories is the famous story of Rav

    Yaakov Kaminetzky Zatsal. When he was given a gift, he went to the pawn shop to have it evaluated so that he could make sure to pay taxes on it.

    Did you ever hear of someone other than a Frum Jew doing such a thing? Do you think these are the kinds of things they teach in public schools? In public schools, the subjects taught are: History, Math, Science,etc. In Yeshivas, day schools, and Bais Yaakovs the main subjects taught are: Ethics (Middos) and Values (Hashkafa). These subjects don’t make it into the curriculum in the average public school.

    My automatic assumption when reading the OP was simply that the company would like to institute this policy in general (the no return policy) but was concerned that people from other communities will be reluctant to buy if they know their only option is to make an exchange. Since they are not yet familiar with the company and are not yet regular customers, they do not yet know that there this is a company at which they will be likely to find something else they want. The company is still trying to gain these people as customers so they have to institute policies such as this in order to win them in.

    #1178084

    I don’t know why you think you think the seller has to offer free shipping; many don’t.

    You don’t sem to be disputing my point, though, that the policies here aren’t specifically targeting “gemach” abuse (which is completely dishonest), but are severely curtailing all returns, even of new, unworn merchandise.

    #1178085
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    You have hit one a major issue in the frum community today, Unfortunatly there IS corruption. and whenever it happens the Press jumps on it and people deny it.

    We need to accept there is corruption and then do whatever it takes to eliminate it. We all see things that are corrupt. People see the hippocracy and corrutions by some and then begin to question everything and then go OTD. I dont need to repeat such things as people abusing Section 8 , paying off the books or other such things

    We need to admit there is corruption and do whatever it takes to eliminate it.

    One story in the paper about corruption will undo Years worth of Kiddish Hashem and then it becomes the narrative and its hard to undo the damage

    #1178086
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just checked the website and they offer free shipping on orders over $150

    Sellers have to offer free shipping in order to stay competitive in the marketplace

    BTW I just noticed they added BROOKLYN, NY to the no returns policy.

    There are alot of people who live in brooklyn who arent even jewish

    #1178087
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Apparently it is known that Frum Jews are exceedingly careful about honesty.

    Unfortunately in the business world that is not the case, especially when dealing with those outside of the group.

    I agree with you though that the issue is probably benign. My guess is that with large families, they were sending out 8 items and returning 6, which creates an inventory problem for a small business.

    #1178088

    You have hit one a major issue in the frum community today, Unfortunatly there IS corruption. and whenever it happens the Press jumps on it and people deny it.

    We need to accept there is corruption and then do whatever it takes to eliminate it. We all see things that are corrupt. People see the hippocracy and corrutions by some and then begin to question everything and then go OTD. I dont need to repeat such things as people abusing Section 8 , paying off the books or other such things

    We need to admit there is corruption and do whatever it takes to eliminate it.

    One story in the paper about corruption will undo Years worth of Kiddish Hashem and then it becomes the narrative and its hard to undo the damage

    ZD, that’s all true, but it’s not an excuse for people who should know better to unfairly bash our community as whole when a horrible story happens.

    #1178089
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD: “One story in the paper about corruption will undo Years worth of Kiddish Hashem and then it becomes the narrative and its hard to undo the damage”

    So why are you spreading these stories and causing untold damage?

    #1178090

    I agree with you though that the issue is probably benign. My guess is that with large families, they were sending out 8 items and returning 6, which creates an inventory problem for a small business.

    That is quite reasonable, and I think there is a chiyuv on all of us to judge our fellow Jews l’kaf z’chus instead of the other way.

    Also, I think, factor in that the Torah values being careful with money (think pachim k’tanim), so when someone makes a legitimate purchase but it turns out to not be needed, it is proper to return it.

    However, what may be proper for the individual turns into a headache for the seller.

    #1178091
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I dont know who broke this story, I never heard of this website before this broke.

    I also sell wholesale to other websites so I speak to buyers and we discuss returns, They tell me how important it is to avoid getting returns because they cost money. Good companies track returns, If they see one product gets too many returns they wont sell the item, If they see too many returns from oddball communities its a problem (Frankly Ive rarely seen Monsey or lakewood in my sales)

    I still say rather than bash the sellers, Maybe we need to look at ourselves and see what are we doing wrong, It is Elul, sometimes places to seek tshuva are hard to find and others stare us right in the face

    #1178092
    catch yourself
    Participant

    For the record, buying something with the intention of using it for some time and then returning it is considered ????, since you are making use of the seller’s property because he is holding your money, which he will need to return. If the seller is ???? ???, this is a serious ?????.

    Without question, most Orthodox Jews are horrified by the thought of such practices, which are in direct opposition to Torah and Middos Tovos.

    Nevertheless, the fact that there exist those who perpetrate them should give us pause. How can we better train and educate ourselves and our children so that the exploitation of such loopholes, which is ??? ????? ????? at best and outright ???? at worst, is not perpetuated?

    #1178093
    Joseph
    Participant

    Halachicly a seller can have a zero return policy, with no refunds and no exchanges, period. Once you buy it, you keep it. In fact, that is the default halacha if there is no agreed terms otherwise. (Obviously if it is a damaged item then the buyer has the halachic right to return it. But not if it is a change of mind, wrong size or too many ordered.)

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