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I am starting to feel asinine and misdiagnosed because of the media and people, who throw around one liners like “Adhd is over diagnosed” or “If you try hard enough you can manage without meds” Yes, I agree with these comments but if I can lead a more productive life with meds, why not?
Why should I struggle if I don’t have to?
I think everyone would agree if the drugs really did work well.
My objection is that since the meds don’t work well, and since they miss the real point which is the psychological issues, it is a bad idea to resort to them only.
yah, I’m talking even about ADHD. Maybe these chachomim should see what else is going on in the kid’s life before they diagnose ADHD. Sorotzkin talks about a case where there was insane turbulence in the kid’s life and the psychiatrist just says “ADHD!, Go on meds!’
One of my relatives for five years was on and off Adderal and other such things. The difference was so radical that now this relative is on Adderal xr all the time. Without the meds it’s like that relative is a monster. With it…
Do meds really work better than the moderate use of caffeine (preferably green tea, because it promotes calmness and alertness at the same time)? Aerobic exercise works even better than caffeine at increasing alertness (and also has many other benefits). Teachers often find their best students are those in involved in cross-country (long distance running).
In some Jewish communities, many people are on ritalin and similar drugs, while others discourage them. Rabbi Lazer Brody, for example, claims that one can eliminate the need for meds by different parenting strategies (spending more time with kids, spending more time outside in nature, etc.) His blog has a few entries on the topic.
I don’t know about the efficacy of those teachings. But I think it would be interesting to see whether if someone jogged daily, got enough sleep, ate healthy foods (for example, no artificial ingredients, some of which have been linked to behavioral problems), and had a little caffeine or theobromine (the stimulant in chocolate), if that would work just as well as meds. Maybe not, but maybe it’s worth trying.
My relative walks to and from school, does the Wii fit, sleeps from 10pm to 8am with the help of melatonin, avoids food coloring and other unnatural things like the plague, drinks a coffee in the morning. Sure the exercise helps a bit, but just a bit. The meds help tons. For myself exercise and sleep is enough.
I volunteer with teens and a lot of kids who come to my attention have underlying AD/h/D symptomology, and I spend a lot of my time trying to convince them to get help and to use the help they get wisely. So I feel very strongly about this topic.
I propose that ADHD and/or depression are present in >75% of teens with issues. A quick search of Pubmed reveals no studies among Orthodox Jews. Any epidemiologists looking for a career starter out there?
My objection is that since the meds don’t work well, and since they miss the real point which is the psychological issues, it is a bad idea to resort to them only.
Agreed. Even if you have ADHD, and the medications are helping, your ADHD has probably worsened or caused any other issue you may be dealing with in your life.
“Pills don’t teach skills”, and they won’t fix your other problems, but they can help you start working on them. Imho medication should be used only in this capacity, and long-term medication use should be a last resort.
BTW, not all people with AD/H/D respond to medication, which helps fuel the controversy. There are studies that discuss this, as well as which medication is best for which type of ADHD. I personally know people for whom medication was not effective. By being self-aware and acknowledging their weaknesses, they were able to cope and be successful in their personal and professional life without it.
Most people on ADHD medications can go off them eventually if they use the time they are on pills to develop coping mechanisms. Russell Barkley’s Taking Charge of ADHD is a great resource for parents and educators, and medication takes up a small fraction of the book.
OTOH, if you do need it, it is foolish not to take it. Some people need to drink coffee in the morning, and some need to take Ritalin. It has approximately the same effect on the body.
Exercise and sleep and healthy food are very important, and an absolute must for learning to cope with ADHD. But they do not replace other kinds of interventions.
1. There is a vast difference between debating whether children should be taking these medications and whether adults should.
1a. This is true for several reasons. One is the existence and definition of ADHD. A strong case can be made that there is no such thing as ADHD in a qualitative sense, rather, people possess the ability to concentrate in different quantities. If that were true, then society owes it to children to reform the school system and childhood environment to address the needs of more children more regularly. Also, the effects might be significantly different when administered to a non-consenting child with a still-developing brain than when administered to a fully informed and consenting adult with a fully developed brain (and less time, frankly, for long term side effects to develop and present).
2. Regarding adults, I fully agree with OP. The name or existence of your diagnosis makes no difference and you don’t have to justify it to anyone except your doctor and your shadchan. If taking medication allows you to accomplish the things that you need to accomplish, which you would not have otherwise been able to do, then you cannot be criticized for using it. In fact, choosing to use it is in itself a step that you should give yourself credit for.
VM- it’s true that people have varying concentration levels. It’s also true that people develop at different rates. Yet I don’t know anyone who insists that there is no such thing as being developmentally delayed.
Gamanit, according to that viewpoint, the developmental delay would simply be synonymous with “developing at a different rate”. Making it pathological is just a matter of semantics – i.e. where on the curve do you draw a line and say, “this is a disorder that needs medication”. There might be a benefit in doing that, just to set a guideline that can be calibrated to help the most people the most often with the lowest incidence of negative effects, but OTOH, there might be a benefit to doing it case by case.
I see you got my point. I think there should be a curve, and individual cases should be judged based on where they are on the curve as well as other factors.
VM makes an excellent point. (as usual)
Ty, ty, T613T
Veltz Meshugener -“1a. This is true for several reasons. One is the existence and definition of ADHD. A strong case can be made that there is no such thing as ADHD in a qualitative sense, rather, people possess the ability to concentrate in different quantities. If that were true, then society owes it to children to reform the school system and childhood environment to address the needs of more children more regularly.”
The first part I believe is hogwash. The second part you make somewhat of a point. It would definitely help those who are Not really ADHD, but for whatever reasons they have been labeled as such. I don’t believe these are the vast majority of those with an ADHD diagnosis. This has been discussed previously in the CR.
Those that actually have ADHD – maybe a few will be helped with Special Ed (I’ll call it this because that’s what you’re really calling for on a widespead basis), but most will need Meds and/or Therapy along with the possibility of Special Ed.
I have always felt meds are the way to go. They make you happy and happiness is good.
Here is a poem about meds-
Meds are so fun
They make you happy
Just thinking about them
Makes me sappy
Heres a poem i found on a drug addiction poem website. Its about being addicted to ritalin. You’ll love it.
In my youth I was quite stupid, I had no time for cupid
Or all the thrills and chills of lovers lane
I was always in a hurry and burdened down with worry
From my Attention Deficit, Hyperactive brain!
Medicated and complacent I became their perfect patient
For when my meds wore off like the vampire in Boris Karloff
My alter ego would bloom like a fragrant rose
I began grow and smolder as the world seemed so much colder
Yet still I would go out dancing in the rain
For my Attention Deficit, Hyperactive brain!
Here is the best advice you shall ever receive:- Stay away from any & all of these drugs!!!
They are all useless, and simply mess you up; But fill the coffers of the Dr’s who sign the prescriptions, and the pharmacists.
you cannot make a general statement regarding this- all kids react differently to different therapies.
as a general review; ADHD is a Disruptive behavior Disorder. There are 3 types, Primarily inattentive, Primarily Hyperactive, and bith combined. Approximatly 50% of ADHD kids have a codiagnoses of a conduct disorder, 25% have an emotional disorder, and 20% have a learning disorder. If untreated, 70% will continue to have major symptoms. The best treatments are a combination of parent training and meds (please note- parent training does NOT mean just giving them the pills and thats it). 2 of the best parent training guides are Barkleys parent training and Phalans parent training (look them up online). There has been alot of progress in staying off the Psychostimulants (Ritalin) and using Anti-Hypertensives (blood pressure meds) instead. Please speak to your doctor about it.
I give these facts only because you need to do whats best for the kids that has ADHD. General comments about staying off meds can be more detrimental than helpful.
PBA: Awesome!!
I believe that reducing a significant amount of sugar in their diets is a good start and will make a big difference.
Everything is loaded with sugar these days, even non-junk food and sugar really affects the kids. A large majority of kids can not handle even a moderate amount of sugar and when they have crazy amounts of sugar, they will behave, well, hyper.
(Having said that, this is not the Mayor’s job, though.)
sharp – Yep, the Health-types keep pushing this theory. It has been proven false in most kids diagnosed with ADHD!
Health, many kids who take meds were never really diagnosed. Many kids, who were diagnosed, were misdiagnosed or didn’t have a decent evaluation at all.
And many kids don’t do well with the meds.
And like popa_bar_abba said, taking care of the underlying psychological issues before popping these pills is good idea.
And like I said, reducing the sugar intake significantly is a good start.
sharp -“Health, many kids who take meds were never really diagnosed. Many kids who were diagnosed, were misdiagnosed or didn’t have a decent evaluation at all.”
Def Not many, perhaps some. And your point Is?????
sharp -“And many kids don’t do well with the meds.”
Wrong again, most do!
“And like popa_bar_abba said, taking care of the underlying psychological issues before popping these pills is good idea.”
Most need to be on pills so that the therapy can even begin to work!
“And like I said, reducing the sugar intake significantly is a good start.”
What – by repeating it again it Now becomes true? It was false the first time and it’s still false the second time.
Doesn’t mean I agree that kids should be given junk in school, shul or home. But this has nothing to do with ADHD!
Health, just because an individual in a white coat that happens to have a prescription pad, said so, doesn’t make it reason enough for someone to run to these pills as the “solution”. A lot of “diagnosed” cases have been proven wrong.
True, medication is definitely a blessing sometimes and it surely helped plenty kids, but only sometimes.
Sheep, happiness is good, but how did you get over missing the spleen without meds?
Health = Most need to be on pills so that the therapy can even begin to work!
Oh, really? I don’t think so.
Health = What – by repeating it again it Now becomes true? It was false the first time and it’s still false the second time.
Doesn’t mean I agree that kids should be given junk in school, shul or home. But this has nothing to do with ADHD!
I know someone that took their child to a doctor for an evaluation and got an RX for Ritalin because the Dr. diagnosed ADHD. The mother put the RX in her pocket and refused to fill it.
Instead, she took the child off sugar completely and in a matter of days, there was a significant change in behavior. She kept him off sugar and went to this Dr. for a follow-up. The Dr. said that the kid is doing great, and the medication must be working and told her to keep the kid at the same dose.
The mother then told the Dr. that she had in fact never filled the rx, but tried to keep him away from sugar first and when she saw that it’s actually working, there was no need for her to get the meds then.
The rest is history.
sharp -“Health, just because an individual in a white coat that happens to have a prescription pad, said so, doesn’t make it reason enough for someone to run to these pills as the “solution”. A lot of “diagnosed” cases have been proven wrong.”
More Narishkeit. The reason the guys in the white coats have those pads is because they went to school. In school they learnt Medical science. This science is based on evidence.
What evidence do you have pills don’t work – because you read some conspiracy theory in an alternative medicine mag?
sharp -“Oh, really? I don’t think so.”
And e/o should listen to your opinion as opposed to medical prof. because Why?
“I know someone that took their child to a doctor for an evaluation and got an RX for Ritalin because the Dr. diagnosed ADHD. The mother put the RX in her pocket and refused to fill it.
Instead, she took the child off sugar completely and in a matter of days, there was a significant change in behavior. She kept him off sugar and went to this Dr. for a follow-up. The Dr. said that the kid is doing great, and the medication must be working and told her to keep the kid at the same dose.
The mother then told the Dr. that she had in fact never filled the rx, but tried to keep him away from sugar first and when she saw that it’s actually working, there was no need for her to get the meds then.
The rest is history.”
Well thank you for this little story. All it proves is that your friend has an incompetent doctor. Is this Doc in the Frum community? It sheds no light on the disease called ADHD.
Yes, there is such a disorder called ADHD and it’s treated with meds and therapy amongst other modalities.
Health, yes, these people are trained and worked very hard in medical school. I agree. I go to doctors too when I need to. However, when it comes to ADHD, this is how I feel about them.
I’ve heard many a patient get Ritalin for the asking. You don’t need med school for that. And many of these doctors who did take a couple minutes to “diagnose”, actually misdiagnosed.
And these meds often don’t work well with the kids.
Yes, I am aware of ADHD and the different treatment options. But this disease called ADHD is overly diagnosed and often treated with meds unnecessarily.
Many kids who are diagnosed with ADHD have many underlying problems that when treated, the ADHD symptoms miraculously disappears.
So is that ADHD?
sharp -“However, when it comes to ADHD, this is how I feel about them. I’ve heard many a patient get Ritalin for the asking. You don’t need med school for that. And many of these doctors who did take a couple minutes to “diagnose”, actually misdiagnosed.”
I don’t believe your stories, but even if true -then these guys are incompetent. Most Med Prof aren’t!
There are times (I posted about this before in the CR) that a Med Prof feels pressured by the parents to give Meds because they come begging to put the kids on Meds – otherwise the kid will be chucked from school. The Doc does it out of mercy, not out of incompetence.
“And these meds often don’t work well with the kids.”
Says who? You? Do you have any proof to back up your statement?
“Yes, I am aware of ADHD and the different treatment options. But this disease called ADHD is overly diagnosed and often treated with meds unnecessarily.”
Care to prove this?
“Many kids who are diagnosed with ADHD have many underlying problems that when treated, the ADHD symptoms miraculously disappears.
So is that ADHD?”
It’s a known fact that ADHD commonly coexists with other disorders, so it’s possible to have ADHD and something else. It’s also possible to just have the something else but it’s imitating the ADHD. The best ones to diagnose these cases are ones who are experts in child mental health or in ADHD.
If more than one diagnosis is present -the kid has to be treated for all his/hers disorders.
I think anyone here who isn’t being treated for ADHD, has an immediate loved one being treated for it, or is treating others with it shouldn’t be commenting on this topic.
It sounds as foolish as me discussing surgery as a layman.
While medicine can sometimes help with ADD and ADHD, there are drawbacks. I read somewhere that these types of medicines can have a negative side effects both mentally and physically. One article I read mentioned that while the side effects go away, people might become use to the drug and it’s not effective anymore. But if they go off it, the symptoms come back.
I feel that it’s much better to solve the problem. We need to look at the child needs. It could be better nutrition, more exercise, better sleep, etc. Plus, behavioral therapy. This way we help the child both now and in the long run, without negative side effects
sm29 -“While medicine can sometimes help with ADD and ADHD, there are drawbacks. I read somewhere that these types of medicines can have a negative side effects both mentally and physically. One article I read mentioned that while the side effects go away, people might become use to the drug and it’s not effective anymore. But if they go off it, the symptoms come back.”
Nothing you wrote applies only to ADHD drugs -this happens with every drug. But science still believes the benefits of Meds outweigh any risks involved.
“I feel that it’s much better to solve the problem. We need to look at the child needs. It could be better nutrition, more exercise, better sleep, etc. Plus, behavioral therapy. This way we help the child both now and in the long run, without negative side effects”
What you don’t seem to recognize is that everything you mentioned except therapy doesn’t solve the problem. And in many cases the therapy will Not be effective unless the kid is on Meds.
Hi, Health. I am saying it again because I believe it, not because I want you to believe it. I’m actually not trying to convince you, (nor would I brainwash you..) but I maintain that these medications are over prescribed, often don’t work and that ADHD is often misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.
And last but not least, a patient that has underlying issues can definitely benefit from therapy and see if it works before letting themselves be convinced that they MUST take medication.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, of course, but this is the way I see it. You’re welcome to see it differently, though.
sharp- do you have any relatives with ADHD? It doesn’t sound like it. You might change your tune if you did. My relative is a monster without medication. Yes, therapy is also helpful, but without the medication there is no therapy. How can you keep him in his seat long enough to have even a five minute therapy session without medication? As I’ve mentioned before, my relative is a health nut. He avoids sugar, eats only whole wheat and goes to sleep early. I never have to ask whether he took his medication or not- you can tell just by looking in his eyes.
Gamanit, The above message was written specifically for Health.
Your relative might not have any underlying problems. And probably had a fair evaluation.
Health, I happen to agree with you in this thread, although sharp also has a good point.
A personal note to Health:
I hope you won’t get too upset at me for saying this, but you are smart enough and insightful enough that I hope you can just take it as my personal opinion and not a criticism. Sometimes it seems to me that you like to have the last word in an argument. Most people will post agreement comments half the time, and disagreement comments the other half, but I sometimes feel like all of your posts are disagreement comments. In addition, I sometimes feel that your arguments would be stronger if you allowed them to speak for themselves, rather than re-arguing every single little point that you disagree with until the other person is tired out.
You are obviously very smart and intelligent, and accustomed to being right most of the time in real life. I don’t know if you’re aware that online this comes across in a way that is unpleasant for others to read.
Again, I hope you don’t mind my saying this. I think you are very well-educated and have a lot to share with us, and I am sure that many people agree, even those who disagree with you. I don’t want to discourage you from posting your arguments. I just think that you may not be aware of the above, and I hope you will forgive me for pointing it out publicly if you are.
All the best,
T613T
sharp- There are other problems as well, which are getting better with therapy. Her parents took her to top psychiatrists. They got the same diagnosis from all three that they took her to, and only then did they put her on meds. Before they put her on medication they didn’t believe in it. Now they recommend it to anyone whos struggling with a kid that has ADHD. It’s still a struggle with the medication, but now the normal her has a chance of winning. By the way, I’m switching between male and female in my posts deliberately because I don’t want to give out any identifying info. I would recommend getting a second opinion before putting a kid on meds, but deciding on your own not to give it? I don’t think that’s very smart.
sharp -“Hi, Health. I am saying it again because I believe it, not because I want you to believe it. I’m actually not trying to convince you, (nor would I brainwash you..) but I maintain that these medications are over prescribed, often don’t work and that ADHD is often misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.
And last but not least, a patient that has underlying issues can definitely benefit from therapy and see if it works before letting themselves be convinced that they MUST take medication.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, of course, but this is the way I see it. You’re welcome to see it differently, though.”
Let me explain you something, I almost never post to try to convince the person I’m arguing with to make an about face. This almost never happens either here or IRL. The reason I’m going to again say nothing you posted has any truth to it is because I don’t want people having this issue to think that your posts are legitimate. You have no proof for anything you wrote. But feel free to have any opinion you want. A lot of people in the Frum community believe all sorts of things esp. in the area of medicine and I have had many a discussion about some of these opinions here in the CR.
Torah613Torah -“A personal note to Health:
I hope you won’t get too upset at me for saying this, but you are smart enough and insightful enough that I hope you can just take it as my personal opinion and not a criticism.”
What is the difference between a personal opinion that is negative and criticism????
“Sometimes it seems to me that you like to have the last word in an argument. Most people will post agreement comments half the time, and disagreement comments the other half, but I sometimes feel like all of your posts are disagreement comments. In addition, I sometimes feel that your arguments would be stronger if you allowed them to speak for themselves, rather than re-arguing every single little point that you disagree with until the other person is tired out.”
Read my last post to Sharp and you’ll understand why I like to have the last word. It isn’t just for my ego -it’s also to benefit others.
“You are obviously very smart and intelligent, and accustomed to being right most of the time in real life.”
Actually I’m not accustomed to being right most of the time in real life -I don’t have that power, but it’s funny how you think you can analyze me by my posts, even though you don’t know me IRL.
“I don’t know if you’re aware that online this comes across in a way that is unpleasant for others to read.
Again, I hope you don’t mind my saying this. I think you are very well-educated and have a lot to share with us, and I am sure that many people agree, even those who disagree with you. I don’t want to discourage you from posting your arguments.”
It’s alright, even if that was your goal to stop me from posting, which I’ve had posters like that in the past, I wouldn’t stop. Who knows – maybe I’m addicted or maybe I’m bored or maybe something else, but I don’t quit that easily.
I still think that pills is a quick fix when it would be better to give them good nutrition, sleep and exercise
sm29 -“when it would be better to give them good nutrition, sleep and exercise”
Yea, this is nice. But the only problem with your solution is that it doesn’t work Most of the time.
I wonder if anyone who’s promoting proper nutrition, sleep and exercise ever saw any success through this method. If so, I’d like to have an exact plan to give my relative. I’m sure he’d prefer not taking his medication. Right now if he skips a day the school sends him home for jumping out of his seat in middle of class.
R’achmonoh Yatzileinu!! Maybe you should legalize the ADHD Behavior?!! 🙂
Such of a complicated world (Some of psychiatry’s are good for -Some of the people and only -for certain situations……), is the medication world!
Great sleep, proper nutrition and a healthy lifestyle all go a long way, however, a really ADHD student can drive a class crazy if not medicated. As a teacher, I have a bouncy ball chair (an exercise ball with a stand) that a student who is ADHD can use if they forget their meds or the meds are wearing off. It helps for a short time, but not for the long hours a yeshiva student is expected to sit. I was very impressed last year with a parent that pulled her son out every day at 2:00 because of his severe ADHD. He went for cognitive behavioral therapy during that time in addition to taking meds so that he could be aware of his actions and how they impacted others. He used to terrorize the class, but this year he is a pleasure. It is all about giving your child that right kind of tools to cope with living in society and behaving with derech eretz. I am certain that this boy is going to grow up to be an incredibly learned person who is a baal middos because his parents are investing so much into his upbringing. I have been dealing with ADHD and ODD children for twenty five years in the classroom-thank Hashem for the meds!!!!
emunah613 “-thank Hashem for the meds!!!!”
And you should also thank the medical/pharm community, [which of course I’m a part of ;)], for first recognizing this disorder and then developing drugs to treat it. It has only been recognized recently in medicine – maybe 30 -40 years – tops.
Unfortunately there are still many, as you see from the posts above, that still don’t recognize this as a health disorder.
Health- I think all those who don’t believe in ADHD should live with someone that has it for a week… at the end of the week they’ll be begging the person to take their medication. I had a friend that before she got to know me and met my sibling, didn’t believe that ADHD is a real thing, because people use the word as an adjective for restless children. Now she really sees what’s the difference between normal restlessness and ADHD.
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