September 14, 2022 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2124467
Here we are 6 months later and Russia is losing the war.
“Russia Announces Troop Pullback From Ukraine’s Kharkiv Area.” A political way of saying that Russia was devastated by an attack from the Ukrainian Army in the Kharkiv region and lost a very large swath of land, soldiers, and equipment. Ukraine is on the offensive.
The tide and outlook on the war has completely changed.
“כִּי הוּא לְבַדּו פּועֵל גְּבוּרות. עושה חֲדָשׁות. בַּעַל מִלְחָמות”September 14, 2022 9:46 am at 9:46 am #2124480akupermaParticipant
The Orioles are competing for a spot in the playoffs.
King Charles appears to be a lot more popular than Prince Charles ever was.
The US elected Donald Trump and then Joe Biden, and the sky hasn’t fall in.
So how shocking is it that Russia (the modern Federation, not the former Soviet Union, not the former Empire, but a country with a GNP equivalent to Italy but with three times the population) turns out not to be superpower, and whose open desire to restore lost lands has totally backfired (they even managed to get Sweden to give up 200 years of neutrality).September 14, 2022 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2124495
akuperma, Sweden is about to get a new government. It remains to be seen whether their NATO application will remain unchanged.September 14, 2022 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #2124505
It is a total shock to Putin.
It is a shock to his Generals who died on the battlefield.
It is a total shock to the talking heads on the Russian TV stations.
To the thousands of “volunteers” who had no experience, no training and defective ammunition, it was no shock.September 14, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2124547anonymous JewParticipant
One major problem with the Russian military , that dates back to to the Soviets, is the lack of non commissioned officers.
In the US Army., nco’s ( sergeants and corporals ) are trained to recognize when circumstances affect their orders and to make adjustments on the fly. When Russian advances stall, only senior officers can make changes. This requires them to get close to the front and has already led to a number of generals being killed.September 14, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2124537LostsparkParticipant
Wars of attrition always look like losses.September 14, 2022 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2124687jews4bidenParticipant
Incredible how someone facing antisemitism and nazism….September 14, 2022 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #2124697
anon > is the lack of non commissioned officers.
This is not a bug, but a general feature of communist regimes, whether USSR, Norks or CCP: you are supposed to follow the party line. If you do something and it works, your bosses will own it (cf. Obama’s “you didn’t build it”. If you are wrong, you go to Siberia. No incentives to do anything unless told and then, only when forced to.September 15, 2022 1:01 am at 1:01 am #2124724
Jackk, the reason for the Russian setbacks is that Russia does not have enough troops in the Ukraine as Putin, so far, has refused to order a general mobilization or even to use conscripts in the invasion force ( he is concerned it may be unpopular among the Russian public). Meanwhile, Ukraine has conducted a general mobilization.
Always…, FYI, the main credit for defeating the Nazis goes to the USSR.September 15, 2022 7:37 am at 7:37 am #2124726
mdd, are you suggesting that we need to thank Stalin?September 15, 2022 7:39 am at 7:39 am #2124729Jason6Participant
There are a lot of tefillos and mitzvas being done in Ukraine with more and more people going to uman will hashems help by rosh hashana with the power of all the holy Jews that will be in Ukraine it will be over amenSeptember 15, 2022 7:41 am at 7:41 am #2124733Sam KleinParticipant
Do any of us remember from day one when this horrific war started or even know in the first place what the direct shocking message from Hashem is of this current war that is shaking the world and effecting the entire economy and inflation of the entire world is?
The shocking message sent directly from Hashem the minute the war started on February 24 2022. That you will not find in any sefer in the world or hear from any gadol Hador speaking neither is it from me a businessman so it only comes Directly from Hashem and the Kisei Hakavod above in Shomayim.
World War 1, World War 2 And the Current War of the Invasion of Russia into Ukraine which can Chas Vshalom bring the world today to another world War 3 if we don’t wake ourselves up to serious Teshuva and Achdus together As soon as possible
All 3 Wars if you put the numbers of the date each war started they all come out to the same Gematria numerical Value number of 68
World War 1 started on July 28 1914
World War 2 started on September 1 1939
Current Russian invasion to Ukraine War started on February 24 2022
Do you know what’s the Numerical Value of 68? Chaim/Life and what is the Message from Hashem? Hashem runs the entire world from every country to every tiny city to every person’s life and it’s all in the Power and Hands of Hashem the decree of every person like we say on Rosh Hashanah every year Lchaim Vlo Lamavess. (To life and not vice versa to death Chas Vshalom) When Klal yisroel is not doing Teshuva and forgets who really runs the entire world then Hashem has to remind us who is the real ruler of the world by making world wars happen R”L with millions of lives being killed.
Now we’re in the month of Elul the month of Teshuva. I think we really all need to wake ourselves up and face reality and beg Hashem our beloved father forgiveness and beg Hashem to please bring the Geula shleima bkarov with Mashiach already and end this current Russian Ukraine war taking place near Rav Nachman of BreslovSeptember 15, 2022 7:42 am at 7:42 am #2124743Sara RifkaParticipant
fools…..no one wins wars, Russia is a far better place than Ukraine to lock oneself into….Nazi’s all of Ukraine the leader is the worse….let us see what Hashem states….personally , I would like to see Ukraine diminished into the size of a toilet bowl but then where where the Moriah Centre go….I would rather know why CHABAD ISN’T IN ISRAEL…..SHAME ON THISSeptember 15, 2022 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2124841besalelParticipant
As regular followers of the news from Israel, we should know better than to simply accept the media narrative as is.
How many times did Israel go into Gaza and later withdraw after reaching its objectives only to see the fake news declare that Hamas kicked the Jews out and won the war?
I am not saying I support the Russians or the Ukrainians and I am not saying the news that Russia is losing is most definitely fake but what I am saying is: you cannot believe the media at face value.September 15, 2022 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2124861
ujm > mdd, are you suggesting that we need to thank Stalin?
USSR murdered Jews – rabbis, businessmen, anyone who was against communists, introduced shmad in Russia, Ukraine. When they started WW2 together with Nazis, they did the same in Poland, Lita, Latvia, Bessorabia killing & arresting both Jews and non-Jews … Maybe Sara Rifka need to read or talk to those who survived (like R Feinstein, Menachem Begin, Mir Yeshiva, etc). A lot of people, including Rabonim, including did not talk publicly about it but their views are known. When they were consulted about activities to support Jews left in Russia, R Teitz, R Feinstein, Lubavicher Rebbe all favored secret activities or private agreements and were afraid of angering NKVD with public actions. As you see, so many people drink bad tea and fall from windows even in our days. Think, how this was probably happened when Stalin/USSR was in full power (Trotsky, for example).September 15, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2124890RedlegParticipant
Sam Klein is always entertaining.September 15, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2124949akupermaParticipant
1. The Soviet Union played a major role in winning World War II. Russia and Ukraine were provinces, not countries. The Soviet Union was much larger than Germany, and Germany was fighting a two-front war against enemies that were larger in terms of population and resources. Note the Russia is half the size of the USSR in terms of population, and has an economy the smaller than several NATO members (US, UK, France, Germany). By threatening the EU and NATO, Russia is in over its head,
2. Had the Allies reached a separate peace, something Stalin was terrified of (those into alternative history would probably focus on acceptance of the very generous terms Hitler offered Britain in 1940, or perhaps if D-Day had failed),the war probably would have ended with the the Third Reich intact but the Soviet Union probably including little more than they had when the war started.
3. Russia is using tactics that worked very well in the 1940s, but the Ukrainians have been trained by NATO in modern warfare (think of major armies launching infantry charges against machine guns in the 20th century – just because the tactic worked in the 19th century when charging muskets). Also, if as reported in the free world, Russian has led its people to believe they are fighting neo-nazis and fascists, and they might expect a problem if they send a large conscript army that realizes it has been lied to. Also, if Russia does general mobilization, the countries on its borders that were formerly under Russian rule (Poland, Finland, Moldova and the Baltic countries) would panic and that panic would spread – and if the “big boys” in NATO start calling up reserves, the Russian situation starts looking very bad. USSR vs. NATO would have been close. Russia vs. NATO/EU would be a disaster for Russia (and perhaps the world).September 15, 2022 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2125016
Always…, please stop repeating the vile Polish-Ukrainian propaganda about the USSR starting the WWII together with the Nazis. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a temporary marriage of convenience. Stalin was worried that he would be left to fight Germany alone and he was trying to buy more time for Russia to prepare for the war. He was also trying to move his western border father to the west by incorporating western Ukraine and Belarus into Russia, the territories which Poland grabbed after WWI and which did not rightfully belong to her. As far as the Baltics go, it is more difficult to justify, but again he was trying to move the border west, spread the Soviet system (a legitimate goal in his eyes). Also the Baltic countries used to be a part of the Russian empire. Though I agree that they were not real Russians and did not want to be a part of Russia.September 15, 2022 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #2125060
“How many times did Israel go into Gaza and later withdraw after reaching its objectives only to see the fake news declare that Hamas kicked the Jews out and won the war?”
I have never seen this .
Maybe you have a source ?
Also, when Russia admits publicly that it lost a large swath of land, units and armaments it is not the fake news.September 15, 2022 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2125113
mdd, how could you ever consider the city of Lemberg (with its German name and partial Jewish, German and Polish population that was originally under the Austrian Empire, that the Soviets changed its name to Lviv after stealing it from Poland) to be Russian in any way, shape or form?September 15, 2022 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #2125164
> city of Lemberg
this ain’t the only one. We were just learning in Ketubot about a miser who has property but asks for government subsidy, whether trying to cheat or out of insecurity. The answer is – we give it to him now, and then subtract from his estate.
Russia has the same insecurity – they own so much real estate and they still want someone else’s, even as they are barely managing the one they have. They even want real estate in the past, claiming that Ukraine is part of Russia … because original “Russia” was in Kyiv a 1,000 years ago. This is like some Arabians moving to EY, calling themselves “Palestinians” and then saying that they have yerusha as Philistines (and with the capital in Mecca).September 15, 2022 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2125166
For those who are not sure of the news, keep in mind that this terrible war is the most transparent war: it is happening with both sides having cellphones, speaking same language, being right in Europe, and with large armies marching in the full view of drones and satellites. Sides can blame atrocities on each other and argue about history and who is a bigger Nazis, but it is well documented where the troops are, what is being bombed, and where the mass murder victims are buried.September 15, 2022 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #2125185
Ujm, my friend, I am glad to share with you this piece of history. The city of Lvov was founded by a Russian Grand Duke of Galicia in the 13-th century. I think it was Daniil Galickij who named the city after his son Lev. The people who lived there at the time did not know they were Ukrainians. They thought they were Russian. The area was occupied by Poland in the 14-th century and it remained under the Polish rule till the end of the 18-th century when it was annexed to the Austrian Empire. Lvov became Lemberg. The indigenous population always remained of Russian extraction, however by the end of the 19-th century they started to view themselves as Ukrainians. They tried to break independent after the WWI, but were occupied by Poland. Lviv is the Ukrainian name for the city. The Russians and Poles call it Lvov.September 15, 2022 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2125202
Always…, learn some Russian (and Ukrainian) history, and you will see that your comparison to the Arabs have nothing to do with the facts.
A thousand years ago there existed on the territory of what is now northern and western Ukraine, Belarus and western Russia a country called “Rus'”. Rashi and Tosfos called it Russiya. Nobody beard of Ukraine till many centuries later. Stop with your anti-Russian propaganda.September 15, 2022 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #2125204
mdd1, very interesting. I googled Daniil Galickij. This is the confusion I mentioned:
They were “Rutenian”. This has nothing to do with modern “Russia”. Google “Moscow” – and see that Moscow kingdom started way after that and it will take centuries until it will get to western places, primarily through Ukrainian Khmelnitsky who rebelled against Poles (and Jews) and tried to “partner” with Moscovites and got rolled over, of course. After that, Russia went to fight Turkey and small nations to take over Crimea and other places in the South. At the end of WW2, Soviets expelled Crimean Tatars to the Gulag (with huge life loss, as usual), and populated it with Russian peasants. These re-populated peasants are now the “natives” that Russia is “protecting”. Please add this piece of history to your puzzle.
For Polish _Lwow_ itself, 100 years ago, 20% of the city belonged to Ukrainian Catholics, 30% Jews, rest – Poles. 85% spoke Polish, 10% Ruthenian. This was typical for cities at that time – Poles and Jews were in the cities. Possibly, peasants around were more Ruthenian.September 15, 2022 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2125235
Always, Ruthenians called themselves “Russini” — extremely close to Russkiye. The Grand duchy of Moscow emerged from the old Rus’. You do not know the history of those places, my freind. Like I said, go learn it. It is an outrageous Polish lie — to claim that the Russian kingdom of Moscow had nothing to do with the old Russia of Kiev.
Overall, the Ukrainians were a majority in eastern Galicia, but not in the cities.
The Ukrainian Catholics were ethnic Ukrainians who because of the centuries of pressure converted.
Stop with your anti-Russian hysteria already.September 15, 2022 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2125239
Always, both the principality of Galicia and the principality of Moscow used to be part of the Kievan Rus’.September 15, 2022 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2125238
mdd, do you view Ukrainians as ethnic Russians or do you consider Ukrainians to be distinct from Russians?September 15, 2022 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2125247
Ujm, they are distinct from the regular Russians, but are very close to them.September 16, 2022 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2125260
Kiev Rus, I think, got swept by Mongols like everyone else up to Hungary. Moscow somehow emerged as a new player later on under Mongols – some say that Moscow centralization and cruelty are coming from their Mongol origins, this is not a fact, but an opinion that might come from their enemies as you are saying. But the fact that area of Moscow (probably a village at the time) was a remote part of Kievan state does not make Russians the owner of that. If you wish, this is like Canadian appointing a new King because they used to be part of the Empire… In fact, if you insist that there is a kesher, then Ukraine should be in charge of Moscow.
The analogy with Palestinians makes a lot of sense though. As my Israeli friend quipped about some peace negotiations: why do I want to be a cousin of people who kill their own brothers. Same, if Russians are claiming that Ukrainians are their brothers, then why do they send Chechens to kill 10,000s of the brothers, and now destroy power for millions. This is not the way we generally understand “achicha”.September 16, 2022 1:14 am at 1:14 am #2125283
Always, come on — you do not know the history of those places. Moscow principality was ruled by the direct descendants of the Grand Dukes of Kiev. Why Ukraine was not in charge of Moscow? I can not teach you a full course on the Russian (and Ukrainian) history in the coffee room here. Get yourself a reputable book on the subject and learn it in the bathroom — to avoid bittul Torah.September 16, 2022 9:13 am at 9:13 am #2125315
If only the pro-Russia folks on this site would realize the following:
Yes, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union (not Russia proper) until 1991. The only reason that stayed until so recently was due to WWII; Hitler invaded Ukraine (which was Austria & Poland at that point). Stalin won it at the end of the war and hence added it to the Soviet Union.
Stop unwittingly supporting Nazism.September 16, 2022 9:13 am at 9:13 am #2125316
And on a side note, does anyone think Russia was kinder to the Jews than Ukraine?
You say Ukraine was part of Russia (implying Russia proper) but then blame the Ukrainian government for actions committed by Russia when Ukraine didn’t have their own country?
I would never have said this in most contexts because I know it’s history, but I’ll say it now (and congrats to the folks who can read it without Google):
слаьа украина!September 16, 2022 11:21 am at 11:21 am #2125328
“We want the world to know what happened in reality and what the Russian occupation has led to,” Zelenskyy said in his daily address late Thursday. “There were Bucha and Mariupol and now, unfortunately, there is Izyum. Russia always leaves death behind — and it must be accountable for that.”
The documentation of Russian war crimes is overwhelming. In can fill libraries.
There are witnesses to it all. Some are Ukrainians and some are Russians. Not every Russian soldier lost their sense of humanity.
Very soon the judgement day in the International Court of Justice will come for Putin and his associates. They will all be held responsible for the Human Rights and Geneva Convention violations.
Just the most revelations:
Where are the men in Horlivka?
Why are there mass graves in Izyum?
Why are there torture chambers in Balakliya?
Why are there hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians deported to inside Russia?September 16, 2022 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2125344
chief > And on a side note, does anyone think Russia was kinder to the Jews than Ukraine?
yes and no. At the times mdd pines for, Russia proper did not allow Jews into their country, so they did not do anything bad to the Jews. Jews were invited into Poland by the Kings and then were opposed by competing burgers. Then, Jews figured out that they can work for Polish aristocrats by supervising their remote Ruthenian villages and bringing income back. Obviously, this created tensions, culminating in Khmelnitsky pogroms. Parenthetically, it would be interesting to see teshuvos from that time: how did Rabonim react to people leaving heilicke communities of Warsaw and Krakow and moving to Uman or Lubavich. This is like going to Texas ourdays.September 16, 2022 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2125349
Mdd can also calm down. History is an interesting topic, but not really relevant when discussing current atrocities. Russia violated international law multiple times over the years. If she did not have nuclear weapons, a UN veto and a pipeline, it would have been punished long time ago.
Ukraine is a reasonably democratic country, so if a majority of Ukrainians wanted to join Russia, they would have. Even a tiny non-democratic Belorussia, almost surrounded by NATO and Ukraine, is not joining their Russian brothers. Furthermore, Russians made a silly mistake – Ukrainian elections used to be 50-50 between corrupt pro-Russians and corrupt nationalists. When Russia got spooked by their side losing elections, they occupied the most pro-Russian areas – and the rest of Ukraine is now voting decisively pro-West, not even pro-nationalist. This is similar to US civil war: North and South had equal representation in the Senate and guarded that while adding new states. As a result of the hostilities, South forfeited their voting power for the war and some time after that.September 16, 2022 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2125367
Chiefshmerel, you words show clearly that you do not have even the most basic knowledge of those countries’ history! What you wrote about Ukraine being a part of Austria and Poland applies only to the Western Ukraine (Galicia). Most of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire. The Ukrainians were worse toward the the Jews than the Russians! Especially when they were independent. Remember Tach ve’Tat massacres? The Petlura pogroms? Most pogroms in the Russian Empire were carried out by Ukrainians in Ukraine. Learn the history!September 16, 2022 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2125370
Jackk, more and more fake news! The ones “deported” to Russia wanted to go there (at least, almost all of them). Stop swallowing the propaganda? Graves in Izum? Were those people killed unintemtionally by shelling? Caught in the crossfire?September 16, 2022 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2125386
@mdd1, I apologize if I wasn’t clear enough in referring to Western Ukraine as Western Ukraine. It is correct to say that Galicia was Austria. What is not correct is that other regions were all Russia. Poland was larger before WWI, controlling areas such as Volhynia. Lithuania was larger before WWI, controlling areas such as Kyiv and Odessa (which are not near each other; my point exactly).
As a descendant of Jewish immigrants from Ukraine, my ancestors declared their birth country when filing for naturalization in the early 1920’s as Poland. I.E., Congress Poland, which I realize was part of the Russian Empire, but was Poland at the time of the Tach ve’Tat massacres that non-Russian pro-Russian Jews are fond of bringing up. Khmelnitsky was not Ukrainian; he was a citizen of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (later and presently Ukraine).
Does the Pale of Settlement mean anything to you, by the way? Just curious if you realize that Jews were restricted to that area, also known as apartheid. All Russia’s doing. Don’t try to spin the story.September 16, 2022 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #2125391
Cheifshmerel, I almost want to rip my hair out! Lithuania before WWI and controlling Kiev and Odessa no less!?! It was not independent before WWI, and neither was Poland. Kmelnitski was most certainly a Ukrainian! You spin the history by your sheer ignorance of it. Russian was not good to the Jews, but Ukraine was even worse.
Always…, are you aware that many people in southern and Eastern Ukraine do want to join Russia? And there would be more of them in central Ukraine, but the people there were brainwashed after 1991? Russia was spooked by the violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government, by the way.September 16, 2022 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #2125395
“more and more fake news! The ones “deported” to Russia wanted to go there (at least, almost all of them).”
That is why I said that there are witnesses. They are going to testify that they shelled and targeted the civilians and forcibly deported civilians. You are going to be proven wrong by eye-witnesses.
They were ALL DEPORTED and FORCED TO GO. NONE WANTED TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES.
How can you even believe that people wanted to leave their homes ? Nonsense !
“Graves in Izum? Were those people killed unintentionally by shelling? Caught in the crossfire? ”
At least you agree that they are civilians.
Maybe they also ASKED to be killed ?
Boggles my mind that you can call civilians killed as being “unintentionally” killed by “shelling or crossfire” as an excuse for war crimes. Civilians are not targets. Never.
Women and children residing in their homes are to be protected and safeguarded. If you kill civilians you better be ready to show the world that you tried your hardest not to kill them and that there was a valid military target that you were aiming for.
Where are the men in Horlivka?
Why are there torture chambers in Balakliya?September 16, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2125434
Jackk, how about the Palestinian civilians in Gaza, including children, killed by Israeli bombs?
Those pro-Russian civilians from eastern Ukraine wanted to leave the war zone. Ever thought of it?September 16, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2125435
> Remember Tach ve’Tat massacres? The Petlura pogroms? Most pogroms in the Russian Empire were carried out by Ukrainians in Ukraine.
These are a lot of things here. Again, reminding, this is a nice history discussion, no interpretation of these events justifies murdering probably already over 100,000 people. If you are a Russian who cares about saving people, just allow Russians from other countries to immigrate to your country. This is what USA did for Soviet Jews and some other people. This is what Israel does. Is this something Russians discussed between each other? You got tons of space. Use it.September 16, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2125437
jackk > Boggles my mind that you can call civilians killed as being “unintentionally” killed by “shelling or crossfire” as an excuse for war crimes. Civilians are not targets. Never.
This is not absolute. We are used to American army spending hours following terrorists to minimize civilian casualties. Still, when we needed to get IS out of Raqqa and Mosul, we bombed those places. We did not _target_ civilians but knew that the risk for them was high. (Risk of staying under IS was also high, of course). So, when Russians are bombing cities where there is an opposing army hitting mostly civilians, it is barbaric by our times standards, but may not necessarily be a war crime. Nuremberg/Belgorod tribunals after the war will answer for certain, of course.
What I am really flabbergasted about is this week’s precision bombing of power infrastructure. (they use precision bombing because their dumb artillery is too far to reach the targets). And Russian’s apparent gleeful reaction to that. How can you cheer people getting stuck in subways and walking out in the dark, This may not be the highest loss of life, but an indicator how low these people fell.September 16, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2125438
> If you kill civilians you better be ready to show the world that you tried your hardest not to kill them
Again, this might be how beis din rules, and how NATO and Israel try to behave, but I don’t think it is an international chovah. I think – as long as you can claim that you had a military goal in mind, it is sufficient.September 16, 2022 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2125440
mdd > The ones “deported” to Russia wanted to go there
why didn’t they go “there” before the war? Even now, some deported Ukrainians apparently are able to travel through Russia and third countries and return to Ukraine.
could you check with your sources – wow many Ukrainians before the war immigrated to Russia or one of the Russified territories.September 16, 2022 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2125441
> are you aware that many people in southern and Eastern Ukraine do want to join Russia?
Yes, a decreasing number of them. There are legit public surveys and, if I recall correctly, even areas with lots of ethnic Russians are slightly pro-Nato. You can also have multiple election results over the years. There were lots of corruption, but you had a lot of candidates that were clearly pro- or anti-Russian. As you seem to know the area better, could you please look into this and give us some numbers. I also wonder, closer to home, what are American and Israeli “Russian” Jews think about it (some are of course Ukrainian). Are there any surveys on that?September 16, 2022 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2125444
> Tach ve’Tat massacres? The Petlura pogroms? Most pogroms in the Russian Empire were carried out by Ukrainians in Ukraine.
These are all different and complicated events. And as jackk mentioned, Jews were not allowed into Russia proper, so all our tzoros were with other Imperial subjects: Poles, Ukranians, Lithuanians, where Jews actually lived.
You need to understand what the word “pogrom” means and why it came into Ivrit and English from Russian. We had Romans slaughtering Jews, York massacre, crusades, but only Russians got their own word in. Here is one of the definitions: “perpetrators of pogroms organized locally, sometimes with government and police encouragement.” That is, it is not just random violence by drunk Ukrainians. It is supported by (Russian) government. You can not organize and fight a “pogrom”. Police will arrest _you_ (channeling Yaakov Smirnov’s: ” in America, you come to a party, in Russia, party comes after you”, etc).September 16, 2022 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2125449
mdd1 is absolutely correct in everything he’s explained vis-a-vis Ukraine and Russia.September 17, 2022 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #2125640
“How can you be happy about people walking in the dark…” — Amerikanishe sensibilities and wrong ones at that. They are their enemies. How can you be happy about a person dying? Yet the Shulchan Aruch says that if a rasha dies, you are supposed to be happy about it.
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