June 27, 2011 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #781305Ben LeviParticipant
First you attempted to state there were specific legal reasons that same gender marriage was pursued.
That was shown to be false.
Then you stated that seperate but equal is unequal.
That is irrelevent because the point here is that throughout history it has been a recognized fact that the relationship beteen two commited persons of the opposite gender is inherently different then two people of the same gender.
This happens to be an inarguable fact.
Unless you will somehow show that a man and woman are really the same then you must concede that a relationship between a man and woman in order to last must be different then the relationship between two members of the same gender.
If you do not understand how this is true I suggest that you consult with a qualified chosson teacher or kallah teacher as to the very real differences between men and women.
Now you decided to inform people that you realized certain thing because you had a friend who unfortunatley had this machla.
I hope your friend realizes it is a machla and attempts to get help.
However I fail to understand how your personal “realizations” have an effect on right and wrong.
The Torah says that recognizing same gender marriages is wrong.
The vast majority of the world recognizes that it is wrong.
And logically it is quite easy to understand what the “normal” order is supposed to be.
What does what you wrote have anything to do with it?June 27, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #781306Ben LeviParticipant
please look it up it’s towards the begining “Rabi Chiya Amar Hifkir Atzmoh K’Sudeh” which the meforshim explain as I wrote earlier.
For a complete line by line explanation look in Medrash Rabbah Hamevuor.June 27, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #781307
I found it. The one I was using had it at tes vov. A newer one has it at yud.
I think you’re stretching the words a bit though to get it to be talking about same gener relationships. The only thing it says Hashem will do is that He will punish them. It doesn’t mention yemos moshiach at all.June 27, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #781308yacr85Participant
Just to throw in my two cents.
Although I do believe there is something inherently wrong with a same gender union (be it in or out of marriage), there is a Torah point I would like to raise.
The OP wanted to know if there is an issue with Same gender relationships outside of Halacha. A valid Question.
Reb Yochanan (I think) says (brought in Rashi somewhere in Devarim!) A person should never say, “Pig is disgusting”, rather it is probably delicious, however the Torah forbids it.
I think that the reason for this is simple.
If we don’t do something because ‘we feel’ then we can change in a second.
Ask the average American if he believes that murder is Ok.
He will hopefully say “of course not”
Then ask him why is many countries, murder is considered good.
If you wanted to be a good German in the ’40s, you had to believe in killing Jews.
If you want to be a good Muslim (according to some) you have to want to kill Jews/westerners etc.
Therefore, ‘I feel’ that murder is wrong, could easily change.
If not by you, then maybe your children or grandchildren.
So if we say that “gay unions” are disgusting/immoral etc etc, that is a short lived feeling.
Saying the Torah forbids it, means, it will NEVER be permitted because the Torah will never change.
I hope I have explained myself clearly!
Thanks for reading!June 27, 2011 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #781309
Allowing this license, further legitimizes this perversion. I doubt your Rosh Yeshiva agrees with your nonchalant attitude of not caring about the morality. What about Tikun Haolam, if nothing else? You don’t care if the goyim violate the sheva mitzvos? No problem with legalized abortion? Do you have a problem with legalizing murder? Issuing a toeiva license is specifically prohibited for goyim according to the gemorah.June 27, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #781310
My attitude is hardly nonchalant. And I generally live in E”Y where its not nogeiah that I should need to speak to my Rosh Kollel.
I have never seen the halachos of Tikun Olam, that I know that this falls under it.
I don’t care if the goyim violate the mitzvos bnei Noach. That is their problem, we have enough of our own to worry about.
I did not make any comment about legalized abortion, although on a practical level I can see that someone considering abortion will likely factor in how easy it is to get it done. This might deter another Yid. But I don’t think being able to marry another member of the same gender will prevent someone from being oiver on ma’aseh toeivah- which is the actual aveirah.
Legalizing murder would directly affect Yidden everywhere, so I think I would be against that. But with someone with a nonchalant attitude like mine, you never know…
The “issuing of a toeivah liscense” is exactly my point. It is already permitted to be oiver on this in America. That is not what changed here. The problem is the actual ma’aseh toeivah. And that was happening anyway. Why should I care if some goy is happy that he could switch rings at a ceremony with another goy. Its not the ceremony that’s assur, its the ma’aseh toeivah.June 27, 2011 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #781312
So should you not first study what tikun olam entails prior to issuing your previous comments on this issue?
Also, since you are justifying your attitude with that the license isn’t the issur (actually the Gemorah says it is an issur to issue the license for this behavior but put that point aside for a moment), you would support reinstating the only recently overturned anti-sodomy laws where the States banned the actual act. Right? Since that would outlaw the actual issur, you must have opposed the Supreme Court’s 2003 decision overturning the sodomy laws.June 27, 2011 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #781313
Yes, I should first study what tikun olam entails. Can you point to me a case where the gemarah applies tikun olam to something we need to make sure goyim do? Or to any sefer accepted by the Chareidi public that speaks about tikun olam? It’s something I always wondered about.
In a case where the anti0sodomy laws were even slightly enforced, I would be against repealing them as they might prove to be even a slight deterrent for a Yid suffering from this taivah. Every little bit helps. But in a case where there was a total non-enforcement of these laws, I would see no reason to not repeal them and a reason to repeal them: namely, as a bargaining chip to encourage those that want these laws repealed to work with me on more practical issues.June 27, 2011 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #781314always runs with scissors fastParticipant
I believe that even for goyim it is immoral. I think it falls under one of the 7 Noahide laws not to do sexual immorality.
I think that men who claim to “feel inside themselves gay” and feminine or whatever, either are a gilgul of a opposite gender (female soul) or they just need serious psychological counselling
My question though is why and how can in today’s society they live openly together with no shame? I would never want to reveal such a thing about myself! Never mind do that!June 27, 2011 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #781315600 Kilo BearMember
“I don’t care if the goyim violate the mitzvos bnei Noach. That is their problem, we have enough of our own to worry about.”
Such was the derech of a certain town in the Negev, the one that you get a few granules of every time you buy Ahava cosmetics. Laor goyim means being a moral light, because the whole world goes down when people act as they did in Sdoim.
We are leaderless. We need the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA, Rav Avigdor Miller ZYA and others who understood that we have to influence the goyim as well – and not through politics or extreme actions but through education. When leaders of that caliber left the world, America in particular sank – from Reagan, to Bush 1, to the immorality of Clinton, to Bush 2 who tried but couldn’t reverse the decline – to the present situation where the US is barely the leader of the free world anymore and the malchus shel chessed is becoming more like good old Sdoim where they cut you or stretched you to fit their mold.
Dov Hikind can try all he wants, but he is a politician with no moral standing. Rav Levin is an NK style loose cannon who takes things to an extreme and ends up sounding lehavdil like Westboro at times.
The only answer is Moshiach. Otherwise, we will be speaking Chinese as they know better than to let things like toeva marriage destroy the fragile fabric of the civil society they are just beginning to build.June 27, 2011 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #781316
Dear derech Hamelech I strongly suggest you speak to your rosh Kollel. I did not know that you live isolated in Eretz Yisrael or was it only recently that they tried for a pride march in Yerushalyim. All Jews must care for one another.And remember chas vishalom it should not come to this but whatever mishigas happens in america many left leaning politicians in Eretz Yisrael will try to copy itJune 28, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #781317
Laor goyim means being a moral light, because the whole world goes down when people act as they did in Sdoim.
Ho gufa. We have to be mesaken our actions so that the goyim will follow it- not fix the goyims’ actions for them.
I don’t know anything about politics so I don’t really get what you were saying after that.
I did not know that you live isolated in Eretz Yisrael or was it only recently that they tried for a pride march in Yerushalyim.
I have been very clear in saying that I only don’t care when it will not affect Yidden. The march in Yerushalayim was a chillul Hashem and a bizayon nora. Children in Yerushalayim that saw the pashkevelim and otherwise might not have known about such things could have been opened to these prusta things and affected very badly. I am specifically not talking about cases where Yidden will be affected.June 28, 2011 1:47 am at 1:47 am #781318
Derech Hamelech: How when this is out in the open now does it not effect Yidden in NY? There is no where in the world where Jews reside when this issue comes to the forefront that it does not effect Yidden, whether it be the US UK France or wherever.You were concerned about pashkevilim in Yerushalyim? Do you think we did not have the same thing here? there were notices in Shules it was on the cover of every newspaper talked about on all news radio stations and has been discussed in frum media as well.Please recognize that the Aguda CRC OU RCA and Young Israel used all their pull to try to fight this law from coming into effect, they obviously had a reason for it. May we only have simchasJune 28, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #781319
The Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel and America told the Yidden in America to oppose the toeiva political agenda in the United States. (The Agudah opposed it on the political level because the Moetzei advised them to.)June 28, 2011 2:53 am at 2:53 am #781320
Obviously if the gedolim say to oppose it, then that is what we have to do. But I am trying to understand why.
abcd2: There is a difference between the children in Yerushalayim who are not exposed to the goyishe world and the rest of the children who will likely have contact with goyim in their teenage years. But even with the pashkeveilim at least their exposure shed a negative light on toeivah.
But in metziyus do you see even one Jew who has a taivah for mishkav zachar not being oiver only because he couldn’t get married?June 28, 2011 3:26 am at 3:26 am #781321
Derech Hamelech: I believe that you by your own admission need further clarification on this issue”Obviously if the gedolim say to oppose it….trying to understand why.”There is nothing wrong with that and I commend you for your honesty please consult with your Daas Torah or some other respected Talmid Chochom if you wish to remain anonymous. But I will answer your last point, unfortunately one must realize that having this taiva can stem from addiction, sickness, the result of being emotionally unwell or somewhat of a predisposition to this behavior which became triggered.This can happen to anyone not just people who could not get married. May you be Zoche to be Derech HamelechJune 28, 2011 5:47 am at 5:47 am #781322HealthParticipant
Derech Hamelech –
1. Even though the world was destroyed, Noach who was not mishtatef, wasn’t. Maybe my problem is that I don’t care what happens to goyim.
2. I think the problem is that they didn’t search for help and support from rabbonim. I’m sure a taivah like that is unimaginably hard to deal with, without proper support. If they weren’t getting it, I wouldn’t be surprised that they would be poirek ol.”
I’ll try to answer you seriously, without sarcasm.
1. Even if you live and all the goyim are killed, you or noone would be able to handle it. We are so spoiled in our generation, imagine if everybody is wiped out and we are left in the dark ages. Do you really think you can live like the Amish do in a matter of seconds. If all the goyim are wiped out, almost all automation/technology will stop. Do you really think that there are enough trained Jews to run hospitals, sewer/water treatment plants, farms, rail and truck companies, electrical plants, etc.? You and everyone else wants to come home and turn on the lights and A.C. and oven, etc. It’s extremly immature to say -Hey, we don’t need you Goyim. We don’t live in the self sufficient Shetle anymore -Not even in E. Yisroel, where they have a lot of arabs in essential positions (technology) throughout the country.
2. That is exactly how the YH works, the more legitimate it becomes in the world, the more he can talk Yidden into it.
Obviousy, these Jews were on the ends of Frumkeit- so why in the world would they seek religious guidance if the YH tells them to do something? They obviously never had lots of Yiras Shomayim. So let’s say you tell me -Ok, who cares about these barely Frum Jews? If they are exposed to this Toeiva and become that way, who cares about them? If you tell me this, you haven’t learnt much Torah. The Torah teaches us that Moshe Rabbeynu ordered a war with Amalek -why because the Erev Rav were getting attacked and there was no Cloud to protect them. The whole Klal Yisroel had to risk their lives for the Erev Rav. And do you know who this Erev Rav was? Some say they were the precursers to the Koosim, whom some say don’t have a Din of Yidden. Never the less, right now they were part of Klal Yisroel and all of Klal Yisroel had to care about them!June 28, 2011 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #781323m in IsraelMember
To the OP:
I do not believe there is such a thing as something “objectively” wrong or right morally. Things are wrong or right because Hashem says so, end of story. Even the examples that you brought of murder or robbery will depend very much on the society you live in, as yacr85 put so well. For example — if you believe robbery is morally wrong, are there ever any exceptions? What about a “Robin Hood”, who steals from unworthy rich people help the worthy poor – is that moral? What if one is stealing to save their life or the lives of loved ones? What if the stealing takes the form of slick negotiating skills in business, and you “earned” that money by being smarter than the next guy? What about those who view our entire tax system as a form of legalized stealing via redistribution of wealth? What if those same people then cheat on their taxes to protect what is “rightfully theirs” from government theft? My point is that it is very easy for people to come up with all sorts of justifications for even the most obviously “immoral” activities, and who are you to say that your perspective is more right? The same thing can be done with even something as extreme as murder. Many societies throughout history felt it was morally RIGHT to murder babies who were sickly or handicapped so as to avoid burdening society with their care (and even today many feel that way with regards to aborting a baby with developmental delays). What about in times of war when you are fighting to defend your country? What if you believe the defense of your country requires complete destruction of your enemy? Was using the a-bomb to end WWII morally right or morally wrong? What about the death penalty for criminals? What about Halachically sanctioned or required murder (goel hadam, ir hanidachus, milchemas amalek)?
Mishakav zachar is immoral for the goyim because Hashem said so, and the only way to have “objective” morality to is to look at how Hashem defines it. (I do believe the case against toevah marriage can be made from a logical perspective as well, but that is not the bottom line of what makes it right or wrong, as most “moral” questions can be argued logically in both directions!)June 28, 2011 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #781324
This can happen to anyone not just people who could not get married.
That is what I’m trying to say. My original point was that the same-gender marriage laws will not cause a Yid who otherwise wouldn’t have been oiver to now be oiver. Therefor there is no reason to be against them on principle. There is, however, a reason to be for them. By giving them help on this, they in turn will be more amenable to giving us help on an issue that would affect Yidden.June 28, 2011 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #781325Feif UnParticipant
yacr85, I’d agree with you except for one thing – the Torah says straight out that it is disgusting.June 28, 2011 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #781326blueprintsParticipant
You know you’re wrong
You’ve conceded like 10 things already
What is tikkun haolam
Are you talking about gezeyros the tannoim made mipnei tikkun haolomJune 28, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #781327
We aren’t in the 2000 years of tohu anymore where Hashem is going to rebuild the world from a few families. We aren’t responsible for the choices the goyim make for themselves. The only time we need to intercede is when it will affect Yidden. I have been saying that all along.
The way I see it, there are two types of Yidden that this subject is nogeiah to. Those that have this taivah, and want to be oimeid b’nisayon and those that have this taivah and have no qualms about giving into their taivah.
In the first case, being able to marry the same gender does not have any appeal because they are trying to be koivesh their yetzer.
In the second case, not being able to marry the same gender wasn’t going to stop them from being oiver on the maiseh toeivah, so its irrelevant.
I am not saying that the fact that the Yidden in the second case are being oiver is not important. I am arguing that what is important is the cheit itself, not the marriage which is not even a heicha timtza to be oiver.
If you can give me a case where a Yid will be oiver an aveirah that he otherwise would not have been oiver because he is now able to marry the same gender, then I will agree with you right away. I just haven’t been able to think of such a case.
I haven’t conceded anything, you just haven’t understood what point I’ve been arguing about this whole time.June 28, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #781328Feif UnParticipant
There are cases where it says a society was destroyed because they allowed marriages within the same gender. The USA has been very good for frum Jews. Let’s hope that Hashem, in the merit of all the mitzvos being done in the USA, does not destroy the country!June 28, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #781329YW Moderator-80Member
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