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    rationalfrummie, your statements are not statements and your questions are still not questions.

    I already explained to you (the obvious) that had the Zionists lost that there likely would have been many more deaths and casualties of “soneihem shel yisrael”, CH”V. So Zionist victories don’t prove anything.

    The Zionists need the Torah and the chareidi and dati to lend credence to their idolatry. So they tolerate it to that extent.

    The Zionists know very well that without some minimal Torah they are nothing and will not fool anyone with their great lie that they represent Jews. Tanach is an important cultural relic, Hashem Yiracheim, to the Zionists, as seen by their recent chidon, followed, of course, by women singing their anthem.

    (If the Zionists had even a shred of respect for yahadus and the Torah, they would have at least had men for this HaTikva recital. But they don’t, of course; Zionists are “proud warrior Hebrews”, not “despicable Galus Jews”. Of course, it is the Zionists who have to grovel at the feet of the nations, and Zionists and their state are the ultimate “galus Jew”.)

    It’s only by creating a frankenstein consisting of their Avoda Zara and, lihavdil, the Torah, that they can fool so many Jews to not only tolerate but to actually promote Zionist idolatry.

    As Shlomo HaMelech said, “ViHaKesef Yaaneh es HaKol”. The Frum work from within the government to make Torah living as feasible as possible under the Zionists. The Zionists need their votes. So arrangements are made.

    Again, the Zionists have no answers because there aren’t any. Zionism was and is treif.


    Sam2, Rav Ovadia, Shlit”a is obviously *not* an apikores.

    I thought someone else already answered you about that teshuva.

    Again, from what I have seen of his works, he is not a Zionist.

    Regardless, if you could please quote that teshuva and/or direct me where online I could find it, then I would look it up since you mentioned it.


    HaKatan: I don’t know if it’s on any of the websites nor am I so proficient at using them. I cited you the T’shuvah (OC 6:41 and 42). Maybe someone else can post it or you can get a chance to look at it when you’re somewhere that has a copy available. I’m sure a local Shul or Beis Midrash has one.


    I do know one thing: Hashem does nit like it when brothers fight in the streets outside the cemetery on the yartzeit of their father.

    & I also do know one thing: HaShem does not like it when one causes the religious & Chareidi parties to loose potential seats in the Kenesset, simply because of boycotting the elections.


    Speaking of Satmar fighting…..

    One faction wanted to build a shul in the turf of the other faction. That other faction then went to the city to complain and make up a charge. The city yesterday ruled against the complaint and a new shul can be opened.

    Imagine, two brothers fighting over turf so much that they fight to block a shul from opening.


    truthsharer: And they did it in secular court! Should we all go and do to them what they did to Weberman for going to secular court?

    Satmar these days is one big chillul Hashem.

    No, excuse me – 2 big ones!


    Truthsharer: are you sure you know what you are talking about?


    mammele, you can do a google search and look at the documents from NYC.


    Wow HaKatan, the more hyperbolic and angry you get, the more I’m starting to agree with you (insert sarcasm here).

    I can just as easily say that your statements aren’t statements and shailos aren’t shailos. You also have a terrible habit of brushing all Zionists under one brush. Do you think the hundreds of thousands of religious zionists view Tanach as a mere cultural relic? Do you think they agree with EVERYTHING the state does? Chas V’shalom and you are really slandering a lot of amazing rabbanim and fellow Jews in general. Shabbos observance, kashrus, and general shmiras hamitzvos is very much on the rise in Israel, and that brings mashiach, not criticizing them as Ovdei Avodah Zarah- ever heard of kiruv??

    You also said the Zionists “need” the charedim. Lol. The tzionim are doing pretty well by themselves, innovating in high-tech, science, medicine, and every field imaginable, without much chareidi help. I yearn for a time where all Jews living in the state will learn and value Torah, and all Jews will enjoy good education, high paying jobs, economic sustainability (why dont many chareidim have any of these?)

    Once again, you ignoring yad Hashem thru the nissim and niflaos of every Israeli war, and the continuing hashgacha klalis that allows Israel to survive and thrive is tantamount to perhaps even apikorsus (I dont use that word lightly).

    So many Jews became frum after 1967, even these frei yidden saw the nissim. Why can’t you?


    Sorry about that truth sharer. You were being vague so I thought you were talking about something else. I don’t want to get involved here but remember there are 2 sides to every story.



    All the money and power has gotten to their heads. What I don’t understand is that if these people are supposed to be their “spiritual” leaders, the ones looked up to admired and respected, what else can we expect from their students and chassidim other than the worst of the worst and thuggish behavior?


    truthsharer: And they did it in secular court! Should we all go and do to them what they did to Weberman for going to secular court?

    I am so sorry that my tax money shall have to be wasted to sustain Weberman in prison for 103 years. This adds up to a lot of money. I guess this includes tax money to pay for his air-conditioning so that he could fast yesterday on Shiva Ossor b’Tamuz, whilst many Aniyim won’t have what to eat this coming Shabbos which would be a much more productive use of my hard earned money.


    I know quite a few people who are Satmar Hasidim; I may not agree with their approach, but many of them are good, decent yidden.


    SL1- I don’t think we should be anti- any Jewish people. no matter what type they are. The Torah was given to us to be understood each to his own. In Ali Shor, by the esteemed Rav Wolbe, he answers a letter from a dear talmid chochom and tells him that every Jew has their place in the Torah. We should not be anti-MO, anti- Satmar, anti-Zionism. Yes our views might not match up, and that is ok! but the only way we will be able to get through to people we don’t agree with is by learning to tolerate and respect. Hashem wants us to love every Jews!

    YWN should not be labled as anti-anything, because it is a wonderful site keeping Jewish Yidden across the globe connected to the Torah world.



    You’re welcome to say my questions aren’t questions and statements aren’t statements. Please do. Although you seem to not be interested in what I have to say (rationalism is funny, sometimes, isn’t it?), I will try once more.

    Regarding nissim (and the rest, too):

    (please see the Rabbi Dov Lipmann thread.)

    First, if you check the CIA’s web site, you’ll see that the 1967 was not a “neis”. They knew the Israelis could operate on multiple fronts and still win. But that’s besides the point, other than to attempt to dampen your Zionist religious fervor.

    Next, I also mentioned (this will be the third time this thread) that if Hashem did not allow Israel to be victorious in its wars, it would likely have taken far greater “miracles” to protect His children. So Israel having won wars is, as I said, not a question on anything.

    In addition, Hashem, at times, allows the Satan to even perform miracles so that he can do his job of trying to get Klal Yisrael to be deficient in their avodas Hashem. Like by the eigel. This is obvious.

    To the gedolim, Zionism was just as obviously from the Satan (obviously, with Hashem’s permission). To those who choose to observe and study current events and history with open eyes, in addition to their emunas chachamim, it is also obvious that Zionism’s state, Israel, is, as the Brisker Rov said, the greatest triumph of the Satan since the Eigel.

    All the learning and Yeshivos, etc. in Eretz Yisrael cannot negate this clear and obvious fact. The Satan will use even mitzva observance, if doing so suits his goal of ultimately lowering a person’s ruchius.

    So, as is often the case with Zionists, “Kol HaPosel MiMumo Posel”. Instead of falsely accusing others of denying Hashem’s hashgacha, which is, in your words, “perhaps even apikorsus”, it is you who cannot admit that Hashem allows the Satan to act to deceive Hashem’s children, as we all know from the eigel. That seems neither rational nor frum.



    Regarding your misunderstanding of my use of the word Zionist:

    Obviously, the “Religious Zionists” understand that the Torah is our lifeblood and not, as Zionism holds, that Tanach is a cultural relic, CH”V; that’s the religious side of their identity, and I did not intend to suggest otherwise.

    However, R”Z mixes and tightly integrates Zionism into, lihavdil, their religious Jewish identity.

    On these boards, I was quoted from Rabbi Kook that “Religious Zionists” believe about themselves: “we are religious because we are Zionist and we are Zionist because we are religious”.

    So they are inextricably tying in their identities as Jews with their identities as Zionists. That’s strong stuff. Because they are staking their Judaism on what gedolim have pronounced idolatry and, lihavdil, what Zionists are proud to declare: the “galus Jew” (and its religion, etc.) must be replaced with the “warrior Hebrew”, Hashem Yiracheim.

    But I was not looking to show the faults of the “Religious Zionist” movement; rather, to convey just a small taste of how Zionism is expressly incompatible with, lihavdil, our holy Torah, as per our gedolim and, lihavdil, the Zionists themselves.


    Yeshiva world discussing Satmer is like Abraham Lincoln discussing Lipa Schmeltzer


    “First, if you check the CIA’s web site, you’ll see that the 1967 was not a ‘neis’. They knew the Israelis could operate on multiple fronts and still win. “

    Of course 1967 was a neis, just as waking up in the morning is a neis, sunshine is a neis, childbirth is a neis, etc.


    A New Satmar Community…

    Applications for the purchase of new homes are being distributed among Satmar congregations throughout the greater New York City metropolitan area. The new homes will make up a Satmar community within a three-hour traveling distance of Williamsburg (Brooklyn, not Virginia), presumably northwards. The initial phase of the new community will consist of 500 homes. A second phase will have an additional 300 homes available.

    The new Satmar shtetl. The new community will be offering its homes, suitable for large families, for $40,000. Yes, that is a 4 followed by only four zeroes. That is a savings of hundreds of thousands of dollars and super-affordable. These homes are not a plan on paper, but are already existing houses at prices that will fit the ideal budget allowance for home rental or mortgage payments. The picture on the brochure hints that the homes are all two- or three-story detached single-family units, all with front porches, separated by private driveways.

    In addition, the new homes are within a general community that will offer income and employment opportunities. Large commercial spaces have been acquired that will not only provide space for business applications, but for organizational usage as well. The planners of the new community have designed their new project well. The anticipated first phase of 500 families would include a committee that will ensure that every family has an opportunity for a viable livelihood, including a distribution of positions as rabbis, dayanim, rebbes, teachers, kollel members, as well as businesses. Members of Hatzalah, Shomrim, and Chaverim are enthusiastically invited.

    (more on 5tjt(dot)com), this is copied in part.

    Anyone else hear about this? Know where it is?

    Just curious.


    HaKatan: R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky said in 1967 that is was a neis. He also said Shehecheyanu and Hodu when it was announced that the IDF had taken control of the Har HaBayis.

    I guess you think he was an apikores also.


    Houses for $40,000? Would they let non-Hasidim in, lol. For that price, I’d even wear a hat and grow out my peyos long.


    HaKatan: You’re not going to convince anyone who is already on the other side with these arguments, because you’re not attacking the underlying reasoning, just using your opinion and applying it to situations.

    You’re looking at everything from the point of view that Israel is apikorsus- others are looking at everything from the opposite viewpoint.

    For example:

    You say that the Satan sometimes causes us to succeed and survive. Others say that Hashem helped.

    You each say that based on what you ALREADY thought. It is a counter-measure that will leave you EXACTLY where you started. You are not proving anything, because you’re relying on you own convictions and you don’t seem to have convinced the others of those basic beliefs.

    I’m personally not so much agnostic as possessing my own individual opinions about individual things that don’t always conform with the party line.


    You can get houses for under $100,000 3 hours from Brooklyn

    Scranton, PA


    writersoul, I appreciate your remarks.

    However, I am not applying my opinion to this; there is really no underlying reason to the other side, as I pointed out. Halacha prescribes certain actions and proscribes other actions. This is simple and indisputable.

    Great gedolim have used the severest of condemnations when describing Zionism and its State, grossly inappropriately named “Israel”, and its various organs. They used terms like Avoda Zara, apikorsus, yehareig viAl Yaavor, and others.

    So when pro-Zionists say foolish things like “but look at all the nissim that happened?” and “can’t you see the yad Hashem?”, none of these are valid answers to the myriad halachic and other problems with Zionism.

    Yet, despite the complete lack of logic to these arguments, I tried to explain that, for instance, nissim are not indicative of Hashem’s will. Neither are military victories, “miraculous” or otherwise, especially when millions of Jews live there, because Hashem loves His children.

    This is also indisputable.

    However, if it were possible for Zionists to bring Torah sources that contradict (that same Torah, and, for example) Rav Chaim, Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, and many others, then those sources could be examined (and have been, and all found not to CH”V condone Zionism). But mere emotional sevaras like “look how many people became frum in response to 1967” are meaningless.


    DaMoshe, nice try with more meaningless rhetoric.

    The criteria he gave for what makes one an apikores, according to what I quoted earlier, was one who celebrates the Israeli Yom HaAtzmaut. Nowhere in your story (assuming it is true), does it say that Rav Yaakov CH”V celebrated that Zionist “holiday”.

    I am not interested in speculating on an unverified story, but he certainly was not condoning Zionism and ignoring the shmad, et al. of Zionism. Here is a quote from Rav Yaakov’s son about Rav Yaakov, as seen at Yated:

    Regardless, Rav Yaakov was obviously not an apikores.

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