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According to the Halacha ((Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 252:8 learnt from the Mishna) that there is kedimah in whose life to save first, if someone’s mother’s life was in danger would the son be obligated, based on Kibud Av V’Eim to save her first (in a triage situation where there are multiple victims) despite the Halacha in S”A? While Kibud Eim presumably would give her priority, there seems to be no similar basis to provide priority when it comes to a sister, wife or daughter.
I always hated this kedima structure because I am a gizbar, so if I get stuck on a sinking ship with an amarkal I am basically a dead man. Also, for a mother, I believe she takes precedence of your own life as well.
I don’t know the halacha, but I would hope that my father, mother, husband, sister, brother, daughter, or son would try to save me before they save a stranger. I would definitely save them first, what’s even the question?
Joseph: As I said I don’t know the halacha. In an emergency would you grab your baby out of the fire or a stranger first. Would you call your rav to get a psak first under the circumstances?
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I don’t like ‘assuming’ what is the halacha do you know?
Sure he knows, and he has been hoping someone would ask. That’s why he keeps resubmitting this subject in posts and threads, am I right Joe?
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The case is where you are a male and you have resources to redeem one captive, and only the women but not men are subject to abuse by the captors.
Next case: Besides your mother, you also have another woman to whom you sold a “captivity redemption contract”.
Well, I stated the Halacha in the pre-edited OP
That was one of many times you have posted this topic, which makes me question your motive/intent. And sometimes intent trumps content.
I will tell you I have heard a roshe yeshiva, one of the most respected, say not to bring up this mishna as it will cause people to go off the derech. The priority structure for saving is not followed today lemeisa by anyone. Also, halacha sometimes has to be very simplistic and it can be misconstrued so people who dont know how halacha works might think the hierarchy is indicative of some sort of superiority.
Two male witnesses are believed for instance who we dont know anything about, but one witness is not believed even if its Rov Moshe Feinstein. Does that make the two witnesses “superior” to Rov Moshe Feinstein? Certainly not. But thats how halacha works, its often simplistic.
Halacha also allows for slavery. It allows the slave owner to breed their slaves. It allows to stone people to death and calls for mass genocide. Why dont you talk about those halachos?
Joseph, in my humble opinion, I dont think the motive for you asking these questions is coming from your neshama, I think its coming from your yetzer hara.
If you insist that “talk about a mishna” is somehow the equivalent of “post threads in anonymous forums about topics in mishna” than reasoning isnt much of an option.
And enter Joseph, arbiter of who is a serious Rosh Yeshiva and who isn’t.
Sometimes we in the CR forget that Joseph is the true Gadol HaDor who gets to determine what opinions Talmidei Chachamim can and can’t have. Thank you for that reminder.
Even if you disagree with him and his unknown rav 100%, you still cannot call what you are doing “talking about a mishna” in the sense that the rabbeim meant it.
Even if NO rav said not to bring it up, your own rabbeim wouldn’t give consent for you to be here at all let alone here discussing these mishnayos in this venue.
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Joseph: Not being able to quote a single SHU”T Psak? Look at the Tzitz Eliezer 18:1 (maybe 18:3).
“No serious rosh yeshiva ever said we stop following a halacha in Shulchan Aruch in our days or that we shouldn’t talk about a mishna.”
Yes, I asked if a Kohen should be saved before a Yisroel and he said a Kohen is not saved first because they are only safek kohanim. I believe we have already had this talk. And for women, it only applies when everything else is exactly equal. And things are never exactly equal. So its not lemeisa. The poskim will find a way out of these things.
And yes, a serious Roshe Yeshiva has told me halacha like these will make people on the fence go off the derech and we should not talk about them to certain people. For privacy reasons I dont want to say his name. Of course, you have the right to disagree and I personally disagree with any sort of censorship.
Joseph, can we put an end to this once and for all: did you actually ask a question what to do lemeisa to a Posek and he told me lemeisa to save a man before a woman? And he told you lemeisa to save a kohen before a levi?
Yes, I asked a posek if a Kohen should be saved before a Yisroel and he said a Kohen is not saved first because they are only safek kohanim. I believe we have already had this talk. And for women, it only applies when everything else is exactly equal. And things are never exactly equal. So its not lemeisa. The poskim will find a way out of these things.
newbee: Safek Kohanim? That doesn’t make any sense. I mean, it does, but no one since the before the Chasam Sofer and R’ Akiva Eiger have held that Kohanim were actually Safek Kohanim. We assume our Kohanim are real Kohanim and that a Ksav Yichus is just a Chumra by doing the Avodah. Otherwise we wouldn’t do Pidyon HaBen.
“Safek Kohanim? That doesn’t make any sense. I mean, it does, but no one since the before the Chasam Sofer and R’ Akiva Eiger have held that Kohanim were actually Safek Kohanim. We assume our Kohanim are real Kohanim and that a Ksav Yichus is just a Chumra by doing the Avodah. Otherwise we wouldn’t do Pidyon HaBen.”
I asked my rov a while ago he told me since they are only safek it does not warrant saving a life. I got an email from another Rabbi saying the same thing. I asked another rov about giving a kohen kedima in tzedaka and he told me not to so as well. The email gave me these sources: See “Shulchan Aruch” Y.D. 251:9 and “Aruch HaShulchan” 11 there. R’ Tam on Taz 128:39 and others i can look back at the email if you want
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Well obviously not from what I quoted earlier and also I remember Rav Eliezer Waldenberg saying it does not apply to saving- many Rabbis dont hold by that today. Rav Moshe would also consider many people today who are kohanim not to be because he requires more proof than most poskim. Rov Moshe also says its only when all else is equal which we could never know. So one way or another halacha has adapted not to follow this order lemeisa.
I would challenge you to tell me one real-life case this has actually happened where a man was saved before a woman because of this. It has been relegated into the impossible and non-practical.
It is NEVER followed in real life. Does hatzola follow this order? Do doctors? Do frum firemen? No one follows this lemeisa.
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“Say a boat with all strangers is sinking that you have nothing to do with or even know who anyone is, for example. Or any situation where between two people you have nothing other than the kedima stated in halacha.”
There has not been a case in the past 100 years I am aware of where a man was saved over a woman and the woman was left to drown or a yisroel was saved before a convert because of any halacha. Not one case. If there has been a case please tell me I would sincerely like to know.
I was not saying hush hush it, a roshe yeshiva said that. I personally think if it is the halacha and no one knows about it it should be taught to hatzola and doctors and made public in every young israel since no one knows about it.
But saying I dont like it is like saying I dont like the halacha that allows me to enslave a human being, breed him with another slave against his will and keep his children as slaves after he is set free.
Halacha changes. Situations change with every generation. If it is truly halacha lemeisa you have to tell me why you cant tell me ONE time it was EVER practiced or why every Rabbi I ask says we dont follow it.
Joseph: I looked at Igros Moshe CM 1:4 and 2:4. Nothing about what you claim is mentioned there.
Its not my own “boich sevora bubbe maaisa” I literally emailed a rov, asked mine in person, and called a halacha hotline. They all told me the same thing.
newbee: The Shulchan Aruch and Aruch Hashulchan prove Joseph wrong. They say nothing about Kohanim nowadays not counting.
I quoted the chelkas yaakov, rambam and taz about the kohanim having a lesser status today. But its good you looked into the igros about what Yoseph hatzadik was saying.
“I’m not aware of someone being declared a mamzer”
Thats a great example of how certain halacha works. Rabbis found a way not to declare people mamzerim and sell our chametz and build an eruv.
“made a klap on the bima to announce he followed it and it would’ve been reported in the Hamodia”
Im pretty sure there is a difference between that and about never hearing about this happening once- ever in modern history. If a woman was left to drown even once I am sure we would have heard about.
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