September 11, 2008 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #588190Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Submitted to YWN via email:
Dear YW Editor:September 11, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #621991
Sorry to have to be the one to bust the bubble here (but someone has to defend the Torah), there is no defense for the father who put his hand on his daughter IN PUBLIC. That is a breach of tznius. (Yes, even father/daughter. In public.)September 11, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #621992tzippiMember
May your daughter grow and be worth the investment. Been there done that 😉September 11, 2008 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #621993namelessMember
Wow! My emotions are running high and my keyboard is getting soaked.
I witnessed something like that a few years ago at JFK airport in NY. It was the most beautiful scene watching father’s bentch their Yeshiva Bochurim and encouraging them to ‘shteig’ as they leave for their journey to EY. It happened to have been a time when there was alot of tension in the Middle East which made the circumstances even more touching.
We truly are a great nation! We prove time and time again that we dont fear anyone or anything besides the Almighty.
‘Hakol Bydei shomayim, chuts Myiras shomayim’September 11, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #621994yoshiMember
Bogen, is sure bursting a lot of bubbles today.
Ahyhoo… This is a very sweet and touching story. As a daughter, I always loved when my father would put his hand on my head and say a blessing. It’s nice to hear happy stories, especially on a day, like today.September 11, 2008 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #621995namelessMember
What happens at the ‘Beteken’ before the chupah? Doesnt the father bentch the daughter in PUBLIC,?
Furthermore, how do you know he LITERALLY puts his hand on her, maybe his hands are slightly raised,,,,,September 11, 2008 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #621996shindyMember
It is indeed very scary to send your kid off to Israel and not know what’s going on. here we are sending our boys and girls off to another country and we have never seen her school, he principal, or her teachers. Sure, you can speak every day on the cell phone, but you don’t actually see them, meet the principal, and see the actual school. If it is affordable, a parent should try to visit the child in Israel and see if everything is alright. I know I did and it was money well spend, hey, what’s another two thousand for a ticket to Israel when you are already spending $25,000.September 11, 2008 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #621997rabbiofberlinParticipant
bogen, any source for your assertion that this is a breach of znius?
Last time I was at a mitzvah tanz, the father actually held his daughter’s hands…OH! I forgot, on bogen’s eyes, chassidim are also poshim…..September 11, 2008 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #621998insuranceguyMember
It is responses like yours that make us, other frum people, wish you would find your own daled amos to live in and not come out in public.September 11, 2008 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #621999
rabbiner, the choson/kalla also hold hands at the mitzvah tantz and after the chupa. do you hold your wifes hands in public? If you do, there is nothing left for us to talk about.
insuranceguy, I’m sorry to hear that you are ashamed to be frum and duck under your desk everytime you see someone with a yarlmulka passing by. If thats what embarrasses you and (or if you think thats what breeds anti-semitism) you need to stop being a caveman, come out and breath the fresh air.September 11, 2008 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #622001Itzik_sMember
Where I come from, if I see someone who is obviously shomer Torah u’mitzvos do something pleasant or harmless that I might not do myself, I assume he has Daas Torah behind him. I just don’t have the knowledge or the chutzpah to decide that it is ossur for everyone else even if I would not do the same myself.September 11, 2008 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #622002DocParticipant
If you saw someone like that walking with a skirt that went above the knee half the time, with every step she took, would you say the same?September 11, 2008 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #622003Itzik_sMember
Doc: What part of “obviously shomer Torah u’mitzvos do something pleasant or harmless that I might not do myself,” did you not understand?
A skirt like that is neither pleasant nor harmless nor would I even assume someone wearing it was shomeres torah umitzvos (because chances are her shaitel is so long and natural looking as to fool me or her hair is also not befitting a bas Yisroel).
That is assuming I would somehow notice such a thing. Usually I don’t pay attention to womens’ skirts………………….September 11, 2008 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #622004eichnafluMember
bogen,next time you flaunt your knowledge of halacha
please tell us your sources.we go by the shulchan aruch,how about you?September 12, 2008 1:02 am at 1:02 am #622005Yanky55Participant
Bogen, pardon my ignorance, but can you please tell me the source for the issur
to hold my wife’s hand in public?September 12, 2008 1:04 am at 1:04 am #622006Will HillParticipant
eichnaflu: Unless you use the Reform edition, with most mitzvos stripped out, Shulchan Orach is very clear about not touching a woman in public. It makes no exceptions for wives and daughters in public.September 12, 2008 3:17 am at 3:17 am #622007just meParticipant
Going back to the origanal post, it is very touching to see parents sending their children off by benching them. When I sent my daughter off to Gateshead, a few of the fathers benched their daughters. what was interesting then was the difference between the first year students and the second year students. The second year students were so much more confident in their traveling and the parents might still have been emotional, but they were more relaxed.
Why does so many of the discutions here end up in arguments about women’s tznius? I haven’t heard arguments about simpler cars, less expensive hats etc.September 12, 2008 7:34 am at 7:34 am #622008saythatagainMember
This was a really beautiful post.September 12, 2008 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #622009Chuck SchwabParticipant
Unfortunately, too many people, especially those on the internet including so-called kosher sites like yw, have no sensitivity for tznius. Therefore the above comments whitewashing the lack of tznius is sadly unsurprising.
Of course hand-holding is prohibited in public. Of course touching is prohibited in public. The fact that it is so difficukt to penetrate the thick skulls above who do not wish any infringement on their hfkkeirus, shows the difference between most people who do use the internet vs . most people who do not use the internet.September 12, 2008 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #622010anonymouse1079Participant
If father/daughter and husband/wife touching in public is not tznius, how is it that Chassidim do the mitzvah tanz? Also if it happens to be a chuppat niddah, doesn’t not touching during the dance advertise that to everyone? I’m not trying to denigrate the minhag, I’m genuinely curiousSeptember 12, 2008 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #622011charlie brownMember
there is an entire thread discussing the questions you raise about mitzvah tanzes. IMHO, there’s no need for everyone to rehash it all over again on this thread.September 12, 2008 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #622012squeakParticipant
Just me – I noticed the same thing. We should really create a YW version of “Godwin’s Law”. Because B”H at least THAT doesn’t apply.September 12, 2008 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #622013
squeak, are you an old hand at Usenet?September 12, 2008 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #622014squeakParticipant
It goes back to when I took the intiative to create Usenet.September 12, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #622015
Since it is so OBVIOUSLY ASSUR, as stated in the Shulchan Aruch, can someone please post a SOURCE – siman and sif – so that someone like me, who is not a baki in every Siman in Shulchan Aruch can learn it for himself?September 12, 2008 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #622016oomisParticipant
So at a public wedding, at a badeken, it IS ok, but not at the airport where the parent may not see his daughter again for a year?????? C’mon, this is her father!September 12, 2008 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #622017
bogen..if you can bring reyous to your assertion..l’halacha one is allowed to kiss his daughter ..only where there is chashad that people seeing wont know its his daughter then its assur, which is not shayech here. see even ezer simon 21 seuf 7(?). now if your talking middos chasidos in that case you cant say ‘there is no defense….’so,please enlightenSeptember 14, 2008 1:33 am at 1:33 am #622020
Bogen, you worship a very angry g-d. His name is Allah.
The Jewish G-d is an Av Harachaman.
A beautiful minhag that parents do for their daughters you need to denigrate based on zero sources? As Jent says, it is only be because the sefarim say lav hakol bkiin bkrovav, not everybody knows one’s relatives, and they might suspect him. Here everynody knows these are the fathers.
Not only are you not sticking up for the Torah, you are turning people off by the boatload.September 14, 2008 1:58 am at 1:58 am #622021
You are correct of course that a man can kiss his daughter, as he can his wife. But the Even Ezer simon 21 siuf 7, isn’t matir doing it in public, even if everyone knows its his daughter, just as he couldn’t kiss his wife in public even though everyone knows she is his wife. Presumably you agree a man cannot kiss his wife in public even though everyone knows its his wife. The daughter in this case was not a koton (…going to seminary), they are over 12. Hence it is not permissible to do it in the street (or the airport).
(Pashute Jew, you are despicable. Just in the other thread I saw you wrote off Shulchan Orach as inapplicable these days and merely a “good idea”. Suddenly for the first time you are a fan of jent when he says something fitting your bill of goods. I refuse engage with a character as yourself.)September 14, 2008 2:08 am at 2:08 am #622022hillsofwesleyMember
Bogen -see Even Ezer siman 21 – We have all witnessed gedolim kissing their daughters and it is an fine minhag for those that have it – beleive it or not, there are different kabolos in this area (ie, mitvah tanz, badekin, others). There is a clear NM between daughters and spousesSeptember 14, 2008 2:59 am at 2:59 am #622023
Bogen, can you please cite your source in 21,7? Sorry, but Sh”O mentions yeshainim bkiruv basar as a problem for a gedolah, but not one word about the issue at hand.
I never said the Sh”O is not applicable. The Sh”O only said it was recommended that women not go outside, but there is no halacha, only a recommendation, just as he recommeds one use bathroom in morning before going away. If there was an issur, 99% of all chareidi women would be in violation of a halacha, which is not possible, as pok chazi mai ama dvar.September 14, 2008 8:40 am at 8:40 am #622024
to bogen..big difference bet kissing a wife in public and a daughter , we are talking when its known that its his daughter , v’hmaskil yovin the difference …but our subject here is putting hand on head which is totally harmless, as we pointed out since everyone knew its father /daughter so bmchilas kvodoch you still didnt bring rayou…. mir wont kiss my daughter not even btzinu..only time was day of her wedding and btzinu,.halevay gantz klall yisroel such daughter and b’h there are manny, many like her.mir far from oigearbet,so we dont. ok now disregard the ‘vhamasil yovin’..its not tznious for husband wife to show affection brabim ,goirem hirhurim ,i’m not saying its ossur, dont know(this is not addressed to those who are angels also those who were mocking this inyon in all articles regarding the issue of tznious on this site, and also disregard the issur if ‘…vacrai eynaychem’) which is not shayech with father/dayghter relation (when its known its father/ daughter..)September 14, 2008 9:02 am at 9:02 am #622025
please bogen , dont put me to together with this apikores pasuhte yid. his whole torah consists of ahavs yisroel, and not our kind of yisroel, only those who are oiver on what ‘yisroel’ are supposed to be. his
9 and others) constantly mocking ehrliche yidden and being medame to ‘talbanization, women wearing burkas etc and b’klall his haskofos all overare anti torah ..also his friends illini, cantor etc all from the other ‘sitra’ mentiond in YU article. please pahute yid, dont come again with hillel hazakon ‘viduch zil gmor’ we pointed out in other place to your am hartzishen psat…also see arvai psochim , ahvas yisroel is not blank check…September 14, 2008 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #622026
I hear you. And holding your adult daughters hand in public is okay as well? (Since, as you point out, it can’t be seen as affection like if someone would hold a wifes hand in public Chas’Veshalom.)September 14, 2008 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #622028
So far, no source in halacha for the issue of touching ones daughter in public. Anyone?September 14, 2008 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #622029
YOU KNOW BOIGEN, YOUR GETTING TOO COMPLICATED FOR MY PEA SIZE BRAIN..(OH!,WAIT FOR ‘THOSE POSTERS’ TO SECOND THE MOTION), LETS STICK TO THE SAHILE AT HAND. MIR SEE NO ISSUR WHATSOEVER FOR A FATHER WHO SAYS GOODBY TO A DAUGHTER AT AN AIRPORT AMONG ALL HER FREINDS WHO KNOW THATS ITS THE FATHER AND ASSUMNG THE MOTHER’SSSS WERE ALSO THERE(EVEN NOT) AND OTHER FATHERS AROUND DOING THE SAME…AND L’GABAY THIS INSTANCE (NOT THE ISSUE OF KISSING )MIR THINK’S THERE’S NOT EVEN MIDDOS CHASSIDUS NOT TO. AND MIR WILL EVEN SAY THAT IF A FATHER WILL REFRAIN FORM DOING SO(PUTTING HIS HAND ON HIS DAUGHTERS HEAD,WE ASSUME WITH TICHEL, BECAUSE THATS HOW BRACHA IS USUALLY DONE), WITH ALL CONDITONS MENTIONED UP TO NOW, AND WILL NOT DO BECAUSE OF MIDDOS CHASSIDOS, HE IS B’GAYDER CHOSID SHOITE. MIR NO POISEK SO IF WRONG LET US KNOW…BUT ONLY WITH RAYOUS NOT BOICH SVAROS..ME PERSONNALLY WILL DO IT AT HOME …ANYWAY MIR NOT FROM THE CROWD WHO SENDS DAUGHTER TO SEM. OVERSEAS…NOW PLEASE NOBODT START HARPING ABOUT THIS ISSUE ..WE HAVE PLENTY OVERLOADED AFTICLES AND POSTERS ON THIS ISSUE SO ALL SHITOS ARE MENTIONED THERE…September 14, 2008 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #622030
1) Can you please cite one thing that renders me an apikorus?
2) Can you please show me where I did not display ahavas yisroel unless I was defending somebody who was attacked by a kannai?
3) Regarding the Talibanization issue, here is a chakira for you. Do you hold that A) the methods of the Taliban of physically forcing their religious views on other people via beatings and the like, are completely correct, and that wearing burkas is a praiseworthy halacha or kiyum in tznius, except that by an accident of birth they were simply born into the wrong religion. Had they been born Jewish, and done exactly the same things they do now, they would be tzaddikim gemurim; or do you hold B) that their methods are completely unacceptable, because yiddishkeit is a religion of darchei noam and their use of force to promote their views of tznius means that they are reshaim? Which is it Jent A) or B)? Please explain in detail.September 14, 2008 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #622033
“…, you worship a very angry g-d. His name is Allah.”
“…, you are despicable.”
“please bogen , dont put me to together with this apikores …”
!?????! ??? ????September 15, 2008 2:04 am at 2:04 am #622036
Source?September 15, 2008 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #622038gavra_at_workParticipant
Hate to come in on a tangent, but there is a din of Malkos (and more) in the Torah for a reason. I grant there is a line between forcing with and without Eidim and Hasrah, as well as when the Yad Yisroel is strong or is “strong over itself”, but this is what we all believe. We do force our Torah views on other Jews to the point of stoning, if required.
Please explain how and if you would have done differently for the person who gathered wood on shabbos, or the one who was Mekallel (in the Torah). If you would have not changed anything, why was that not “Talibanization”?September 15, 2008 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #622039
Thank You. Well said.September 15, 2008 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #622040
joseph, itzik ,gavre bogen, etc take over’ v’da ma shetasiv..’mir toigen nit…September 15, 2008 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #622041
Gavra, you ask well. There is a complete difference in the time when the RBSH’s hashgacha was geluyah lakol and we were all completely confident that he was running the show for our benefit. Then, as the Chazon Ish explains in hilchos shechita, any aveiros were open rebellion against what was known by all to be true and good.
In our days, writes the Chazon Ish, any use of harsh words will only be interpreted as violence. (Al achas kamah vkamah, violence itself is forbidden.) It will only drive people away. They do things wrong because they either don’t know better, or may not believe in the entire system. Unless you are prepared to first make an open mofes which thoroughly convinces them of the emes, then you must understand that we are living in a time of hester panim, and can only be mekarev through ahavas yisroel, and have no right to impose anything by force. Why in the world should some yid listen to a stranger who says this is the right way to do things? Who can have the arrogance to force his way on a stranger?
Our only selling point is that we show him how there is such an overwhelming warmth in shmiras torah and mitzvos, that he will on his own want to learn more about this wonderful way of life and eventually may decide to become frum.
It is a totally different tekufah now. All this gayvah from kannaim is completely inappropriate and only turns people away. I myself, having been frum all my life, and even consdered myself chareidi have been getting nauseated and almost turned off completely by all the harsh words I have been reading on this site the past year. Imagine how a newcomer must feel.
Note further that even in the time of chazal, they said that even once in 70 years was too much for any beis din to give a din misa.
True there are psukim that say the RBSH gets angry. But there are also those that say he is erech apayim. He do we resolve? We simply look at the gemara brachos that says Kel zoem bchol yom. (Hashem gets angry every day.) But what is the extent? The gemara says one rega (instant) kimeimreih (the time it takes to say the word rega). Each day he is calm except for one short instant. (Maybe this is the source of everybody in Israel yelling rega at each other all the time.)
Kanaus has no place whatoever until moshiach comes. Truthfully, do you really believe all the kannaim are lshem shomayim, rather than on an ego trip? Do you really believe kannaim are more medakdek bmitzvos than the warmer yidden? Does making a lot of noise have some correlation with one’s shmiras hamitzvos? Did the acid throwers win over any new baalei tshuvah, or just drive away people from wanting any chareidim in their neighborhoods?
We could have made the entire IDF frum by now if we would just give them a few words of warmth and appreciation for their efforts, instead of knocking the medinah and the flag they fight for constantly.September 15, 2008 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #622042
Ich mein az ir toigt gantz fein.
Ich bin mekaneh ayer lernin.
“V’da ma shetashiv” – gut gizukt. Ich nur bet dir un die andereh mentchen nischt tzu rufen yenem “apikores”, etc.
Genik mentchin hut gemacht choizek oif eiyer English, yetztz eir ken hubben a gutteh lach oif mein shrekliche Yiddish 🙂September 15, 2008 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #622044
icot, nisht azoi shreklach. grada, gantz fein.September 16, 2008 2:12 am at 2:12 am #622046TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
as far as i know there is no issur of holding one’s wife’s hand in public. if it is indeed assur, please provide me with proof and i will gladly retract this post
thank you for your considerationSeptember 16, 2008 2:21 am at 2:21 am #622047yenta101Member
without everyone getting mad at me…does everything have to be an argument? i thought it was a very touching post and when i read it, it brought tears to my eyes! thank you!September 16, 2008 3:07 am at 3:07 am #622048
(Now you’ve seen my full vocabulary in two languages).September 16, 2008 4:33 am at 4:33 am #622049
ICOT, You gotta fill me in on that one… spaseba sounds Spanish. Good guess?
But your Yiddish above does leaves me the impression you know it flawlessly!September 16, 2008 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #622051
I’m afraid the answer is nyet (hint, hint).
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