January 13, 2011 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #594186
Hey what does everyone think about school uniforms vs a dress code vs. no regulation at all?January 13, 2011 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #728995deiyezoogerMember
oh i love uniform its great.January 13, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #728996smartcookieMember
Give us ONE reason why school uniform is no good.
I can’t think of one.January 13, 2011 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #728997YW Moderator-80Member
some feel it is a suppression of individual expressionJanuary 13, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #728998GabboimMember
Achdus is a lot better.January 13, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #728999mythoughtsParticipant
I love the uniforms but they’re too expensive.January 13, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #729000
Just wanna know what people think are the pros and cons of both.
Well what Mod 80 said, but more so that maybe its not addressing tznius, like not addressing that what some kids wear is wrong.January 13, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #729002MDGParticipant
As a parent, having a uniform makes my like easier. No questions about what to wear. No worries about competition. Although “some feel it is a suppression of individual expression”, I feel that they are worth it.
A dress code still allows for clothes to be an issue – worring about choice and competition. But a dress code can still enforce some level of tsniut for girls and boys.January 13, 2011 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #729003YW Moderator-80Member
im not arguing against uniforms at all, im all for them.
i was answering smartcookies questionJanuary 13, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #729004smartcookieMember
There’s enough individuality when dressing even when wearing uniform.
Girls choose their own shoes, sweater(in most schools), and hairstyle.
I loved uniform when I was a student and I’m sure the mothers love it double!January 13, 2011 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #729005
I was at a school that had a uniform and it was great, wake up five minutes before carpool and throw it on. And when I spoke to people that didn’t have a uniform, I was incredulous, like how do you decide every morning what to wear?
But uniforms also make times where you don’t have to wear uniforms fashion shows. Like by Chagiga and things everyone is looking at what everyone is wearing.
At the school that had a dress code instead. Before I went I was nervous like everyone is going to notice when I wear something again and all. And I thought that there’d be tons of peer pressure and who wants to get up earlier to chose what to wear…
But once I went I was like nobody notices anything anyone else is wearing except to compliment it since everyone is wearing something different. And you’re not the odd one out.
Btw, I think cardigans and sweaters are way cheaper than uniforms.January 14, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #729006s2021Member
whats one of the most imp things stressed in a Frum girls school? TZNIUS! so we learn tznius,tznius,tznius our whole education.. so inspirational! and yet, as challenging as it is for every girl growing up in so many ways, the CLOTHES part of it almost isnt hands on-aside from sunday and shabbos.. and makeup! hair! in school?? gasp!! do the teachers really think girls today r going to stay in ponies and oxford shirts for the rest of ther lives? when should girls start getting a feel for how a jewish girl shld look every day? in REALITY? so we graduate, get out of the uniforms and start really shopping for our everyday wardrobes, how we would really dress if we didnt hav to conform to uniforms, and then it hits: the very constant pressure to look good.. put together..attractive…drop dead gorgeous..for shidduchim…dating… husband.. (and the lines start getting blurry)..scary!- this happens after we graduate and when theres no more constant inspiration and guidance and peer pressure to keep u in check..January 14, 2011 2:42 am at 2:42 am #729007
s2021 makes a good point.
Popa anyway thinks uniforms are stupid.
The way you dress is very important to how you feel. I think we should let kids dress in a way that will make them feel good.
I am a guy and don’t really understand the relationship women have with clothes. However, when I put something nice on, I feel good about myself. When I dress formally, I feel formal.January 14, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #729008SJSinNYCMember
I agree with s2021. A uniform is sort of a cop out in terms of really teaching tznius.
Also, you would have less girls who wore a uniform in school and then inappropriate clothing outside of school because they aren’t going to buy a double wardrobe.
And to whoever said there is individuality in shoes and hairstyles…um, my elementary school implemented rules against “stylish” haircuts. The more right wing schools limited hair length and style to a few very specific ones). Lets be real, uniforms and school rules are to supress individuality.
(From someone who didn’t mind her uniform)January 14, 2011 3:13 am at 3:13 am #729009s2021Member
awesome point popa! and u r a guy imagine girls! aaa! i always felt yucky in school cuz pony, no makeup, and unflattering uniforms just wasnt a great look for me! (and isnt for too many females i know of)January 14, 2011 3:16 am at 3:16 am #729010ChanieEParticipant
I think uniforms are terrible chinuch. They create an artificial boundary between school and home and they don’t teach girls anything about how to dress.
(From someone who never wore a uniform and sends her daughters to a school without one.)January 14, 2011 3:42 am at 3:42 am #729011Mother in IsraelMember
My daughters go to a very chareidi school that does not have a uniform because they want girls to know how to dress appropriately without it. I agree with the shita but it’s definitely less convenient for me this way.January 14, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #729012
and now the students point of view: uniforms are good to an extent!!!!!!! yes telling the girls they have to wear exactly xy and z- does make girls resentful, not teach them how to dress, adn doesnt allow any indviduality!!!! we are NOT robots and u cant expect us to be!!!! *BUT* coming from a school where we have a choice of 4 diff. colored shirts, 2 diff colored skirts,school cardigan or vest- 2 diff. colors (with skewl emblem), valour or regular skewl sweatjacket, or senior sweatshirt from any year- they have no rule on how to wear our hair, or wat to wear in it- sure teachers might make comments but they cant make u take it off (maybe a hat they can) the only accesories they mention is too long earings- which they dont really enforce and nail polish and make up- which they are very strict on and i cant blame them– shoes wise they dont care it just cant be slipper, mule, or open toe (some skewls outlawed boots!!!) and sock wise- cant wear anklets socks and skirt must meet- knees must be covered at all times- they dont care wat color socks!!!!
now that is wat i call a good uniform- i have a freind in a kewl they dont let u wear denim out of skewl- not even a biz- wats it their bussiness the girls go crazy they cant do anything- and unfortunatley i no girls there that were very turned off by tznuis cuz the skewl even has tznuis police!!!!! then i have other friends who go to a skewl where all they have is a simple dress code and while its not meant to be a fashion show and the older girls stop caring- the younger girls start out making it a whole big deal! i think if there is a comprimise of both then it would be good! if the girls have some sort of outlet to express themselves like accessories or even shoes then it wouldnt be such a big deal!!!1 u can still look uniform but u shuld still look like u! its time to let people be themselves not be clones- and to tie everything toghther i no this is a bout uniforms but culd making everyone clones be the shidduch problem if every girl said wat they want and wat they are really like and not wat they were told to be like and want then maybe just maybe there would be a lot less availble girls cuz wat they are looking for would be more realisticJanuary 14, 2011 5:22 am at 5:22 am #729013bein_hasdorimParticipant
popa? whats with the third party? look like the CR is getting to you. “Shenl!” go grab a decaf coffee. Ad a shot of bourbon to cool the nerves.
I say uniforms all the way, especially for elementary schools.
Less jealousy, feel a sense of belonging to a unit achdus of a school. Keeps Tznius simple. Im all about idividual expression,
buy cool shoes, wear headbands or hats bracelets or jewelry.
Not enough? Most yeshiva guys get to show identity with belts,
glasses and shoes. not much either.
I dont see any threads sticking up for Yeshivah guys lacking in ways to express individuality in changing from wearing white & black and blue. Plus the dressing tznius is not an issue for
Yeshiva guys. (unless people have some issues with the tight pleatless (flatfront) pants.January 14, 2011 6:12 am at 6:12 am #729014
popa? whats with the third party? look like the CR is getting to you. “Shenl!” go grab a decaf coffee. Ad a shot of bourbon to cool the nerves.
Popa always talks in third person. That is because the Popa personality has morphed into its own existence next to the regular person of the guy who writes Popa.
I do drink decaf, and bourbon is good. But I am really more of a scotch guy.January 14, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #729015
bygirl93 – I’m glad you like you school uniform, but, wow. Please pay more attention in Language Arts. Your parents are paying a lot for your tuition, and there is no excuse for such awful spelling and grammar.January 14, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #729016always hereParticipant
I definitely agree w/ uniforms.. both my daughters had, but certainly not as wide a choice as bygirl93.
wanderchana– there’s nothing so wrong w/ her spelling & grammar… that’s textspeak (along w/ a few sp. errors).January 14, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #729017yeshiva guyParticipant
Uniforms are great to keep down competition and maximize tznius. However, uniforms are a very powerful tool to keep achdus and teamwork. Uniforms are not a jewish concept. Many private catholic schools have uniforms. Sports team have uniforms. Stores, mailmen, garbage men have uniforms. Uniforms makes you feel like you belong to something. Uniforms create achdus and teamwork. Girls have plenty of time on weekends and summer to express themselves.January 14, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #729018
Wanderingchana- r u kidding me? i love english!!!! that the one subject i’m awesome in! i just dont look at the keyboard when i type so thats when all the mistakes come in- i dont usually post unless i feel a real connection to wat is being discussed so i dont proofread it before i hit send-
alwaysthere- thank you- but may i ask is it because u dont think the girls having some leeway in uniform- that u dont think a wide choice is gud?January 14, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #729019
yeshivaguy- r u serious??????? 1st of all if u read carefully enough u would notice i mentioned there are skewls that have a say in wat girls wear outside of skewl too!!!! i mean no denim- at all?!? wat else r u supposed to wear in camp?!?! and also it doesnt happen that way cuz once u start as clones and grow up that way- a) u dont know how to express urself b) at that point wear u dress yurself- ur just going to want to look like everyone else- its a girl thing so u wouldnt understand- once ur used to looking alike in skewl u think ur always supposed to look alike and then that peer pressure carries on thru out lif- whether u have a bugaboo carrige or not, the car u drive etc!January 14, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #729020always hereParticipant
bygirl93– I think ur choices r awesome! my girls had one skirt option,a jumper, 2 colored blouses, one white blouse for Rosh Chodesh & special events/assemblies, a vest, & a sweater. ur options r gr8! 😉January 14, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #729022ImaofthreeParticipant
Some high schools that have school uniforms allow the girls to wear their own clothing for Rosh Chodesh (of course there are certain rules for those clothes too!)
I am all for uniforms because it makes the girls from poorer homes feel the same like everybody else and minimizes competition.January 14, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #729023
Imaofthree – yeah my old school did that. It was much easier to just wear your uniform!!! Way less stress!!!January 14, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #729024ImaofthreeParticipant
Yeah, one of my daughters just wore her uniform on Rosh Chodesh.January 14, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #729025
Soldiers are required to wear a uniform because it destroys their individuality and melds them into a cohesive whole.
I am not in favor of doing that to my kids.January 14, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #729026
bygirl93 – I’m sorry, but I disagree. You are not limited to 160 characters here. Is it really that much more trouble to type “school” than “skewl”?January 14, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #729027
I am totally in favor of uniforms. Girls at our school can wear colorful tights and headbands, and colored/striped shirts for Rosh Chodesh.January 14, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #729028
bygirl93 – first post: Uniforms is school matter to the extent that they improve (or do not improve) the environment for learning. You have not yet learned to write coherent English, and so there may be something wrong with whatever your school is doing. Perhaps the uniforms issue has distracted you from your studies.January 14, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #729029
Take it from a kid who’s been in both types of school: there is much less competition in a school with a dress code than a school with a uniform.
When I say dress code I mean an actual one, like you can only wear a button down shirt, no words…
There is barely any competition!!!January 14, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #729030chayav inish livisumayParticipant
i think its very important to have some type of regulation but it doesnt need to be such strict one as long as it covers the basics(pants, bottom down shirts for boys and tzniyus for girls). But in high school for guys usuallly requires white shirts which i strongly disagree with because it makes them feel like they are perfect but they still have a lot to wprk onJanuary 16, 2011 12:30 am at 12:30 am #729031mw13Participant
On the complaint that uniforms suppress individuality:
At the end of the day, people will always find a way to express themselves. There’s shoes, sweaters, hair, jewelry, etc. Those who feel a need to express themselves have plenty of opportunities to do so.
“Most people here would tell you that the girls shouldnt have any sort of “visual” individual expression.”
Nice of you to let us know what we think. I just love it when I get my opinion delivered to me on a silver platter (with a nice dose of disapproval, no less).
In all seriousness, these generalizations get nowhere. Please do not claim to know what “most people here” think.
“do the teachers really think girls today r going to stay in ponies and oxford shirts for the rest of ther lives? when should girls start getting a feel for how a jewish girl shld look every day?”
Fair point. However, no good thing is without its negative side effects. I still believe the positives of uniforms outweigh the negatives.
“The way you dress is very important to how you feel… when I put something nice on, I feel good about myself. When I dress formally, I feel formal.”
That is precisely why there are uniforms! “Ha’chitzonias mores es ha’pneimeis”, what you look like effects how you act and what you do. Therefore, if a girl looks like a BY girl, she will be more likely to act like one.January 16, 2011 1:01 am at 1:01 am #729032mw13Participant
To all those who feel that dress codes better teach a girl how to dress than uniforms do, a guest post from my sister:
Yes, some of my friend’s schools have dress codes that are designed to teach the girls to dress b’tzniyus, but as soon as they walk out of school they change into their own clothes anyways. So these dress clothes don’t accomplish anything more than uniforms do.January 16, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #729033
nfgo3- why is everyone going on about my English???? i know how to spell!!! i know how to use grammar!!!! there is definitely no reason to blame my school! if you knew what school it was, you would definitely agree that my school is not lacking in academics! please believe me when i say that when it comes to what one wears the girls in my school don’t let it come in the way of academics! also, please don’t assume things about someone- it is quite rude! i on the one hand have an A+ in english since 1st grade!January 16, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #729034
wanderingchana- as i said previously when i am in a rush to get out what i am thinking it doesn’t necessarily translate correctly in spelling and grammar- please also keep in mind that i am 18 and i do think like an 18 year old girl and tend to speak in a certain way no matter how well i do in English, just because of my surroundings!January 16, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #729035Leah222Member
I like uniforms.. a smart school will not confuse uniforms with tznius.. Uniforms have many pluses besides for tznius.
My bigger issue is the schools preach tznius but only with regard to clothing. They totally miss the boat that – tznius is regarding our behavior, actions, & whole approach in life. Its the desire to NOT want recognition. yet the whole BY sysyem (in most places) seems to stress.. how each girl has to STAND out more than the next.. be in in play, GO, yearbook, trips, acadameia & all the other areas.
If tznius was approached as wholesome subject – not justa clothing issue.. the message might get through and be more long lasting..January 16, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #729036yentingyentaParticipant
As a post-HS girl now in the “real world”, I can now honestly say, uniforms are a good idea. now i have to actually think of what to wear, rather than just go to my closet and take out the standard. these days, girls still have lee-way. between the shoes, jewelry, headbands and clips, the uniform is NOT just one entity. add the different sweaters and sweatshirts, each girl adds her unique flare. and if the girls disagrees with the uniform, she changes when she gets home. there is no rule that she is expected to wear the uniform 24/7. rather than complain about uniforms, they should be thankful they don’t have the added burden of being part of a daily fashion show if they lacked a school uniform.January 16, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #729037Boro Park GirlMember
I never appreciated wearing uniform until I reached seminary and I have to get dressed up every day. Now, I realize just how mechayadik uniform really is. No headache, No pressure, No wasting time choosing an outfit!!!!January 16, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #729038dunnoMember
I hated my uniform at the time but truth be told it was definitely easier then. Like Boro Park Girl said, there was no pressure or wasting time choosing what to wear every morning.January 16, 2011 5:23 am at 5:23 am #729039chayav inish livisumayParticipant
As a post-HS girl now in the “real world”, I can now honestly say, uniforms are a good idea.
why is it that ppl only appreciate rules when the rules no longer apply
Cud it POSSIBLY be that its because u dont have to follow the rule and thats why it seems like no big deal??!??!!
i cud be wrong u never know but its definately a possibility. NO??
nah forget it that cant be whyJanuary 16, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #729040eclipseMember
I experienced both because my high school introduced uniforms
when I was already in 12th grade.Our uniform was classy and none of us minded.There were some choices too.January 16, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #729041yentingyentaParticipant
chayav inish livisumay: never never said i didn’t appreciate uniforms. i said now i can HONESTLY say. big difference. now that i have seen both sides of the coin, its pretty obvious which side was easier and more convenient. i have friends who went to school where there was just a dress code, and we used to discuss who had it easier. the general consensus was, dress codes have more “fun”, but they have to go shopping, and think and actually make a mental decision of what they are going to wear. uniforms we decided are a no brainer in the morning. with a limited choice of wardrobe for school (excluding shoes and jewelry and accessories)it was easy to wake up, get dressed and run out the door. less time consuming. but we also decided that we wished the uniforms weren’t as shapeless and baggy as they were. side has its pros and cons, and each school and its hanhala decided what was best for its school. you can’t change the rules, so why complain?January 16, 2011 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #729042
The reason I criticized your English is because of the text of your first post. I don’t care how good the reputation of your school is, or how good your grades are. If the writing in your first post is typical, and you are anywhere beyond the third grade, you have not learned to write standard English. As for your advice about assumptions, I have not assumed anything about you. My comments are based solely on the content of your first post.January 16, 2011 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #729043bymeidelMember
boro park girl and dunno-
did u ever consider that the reason it is so difficult and pressured for you to decide what to wear is because you had a uniform and arent used to choosing your own outfit?
i never had a uniform just a dress code and i dont feel any pressure in choosing what to wear. for me its not a big deal to pick out an outfit because ive been doing it my whole life.
and for all those of you who think having a dress code increases competition and jealousy in a school that is not true at all. in my school we have a dress code and there is way less competition than in schools that have uniforms where girls feel a need to express themselves in their shoes and accesories and when it comes to rosh chodesh its a huge deal. it takes me literally 2 seconds to decide what to wear in the morning i have 3 school skirts and about 8 button down tops and all the tops match all the skirts so i really just have my own personal uniform. so you cant really argue that it makes it harder to get dressed in the morning, its really quite easy and plus i dont have to have a whole seperate wardrobe for sundays because i have tons of sweaters that i wear to school so it actually saves money b/c i dont need 2 wardrobes- 1 uniform set and 1 out of school setJanuary 17, 2011 1:57 am at 1:57 am #729044
Why should Jewish schools have uniforms. We already have an established dress code from the Torah. Why try to “improve” on that?January 17, 2011 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #729045
bygirl93: I echo what nfgo3 said about your first post. However, I am still 100% in favor of uniforms.
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