See It For Yourself
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- This topic has 101 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 8 months ago by Grey matter.
July 15, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1758409
Shlomo hamelech could technically be. As for the rambam all the rambam proves is that once someone dies he is no longer considered moshiach even if he was once considered moshiach during his life, the rebbe is not considered moshiach, bar kochba was not moshiach after he died just like the rebbe is not moshiach, but that doesn’t mean it is not possible for there to be a miracle (techiya) and for things to change, halacha doesn’t speak about miracles, what I am saying is that a miracle is possible and then he will be like any other live person,July 15, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1758410
It was possible for bar kochba to be moshiach because of the techiya also, but the rambam is saying that according to halacha even though he was bechezkas moshiach, now he isn’tJuly 15, 2019 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1758579
That is a reconstructionist reading of the rambam that only makes any sense if you don’t actually read the rambam or conveniently decide to edit it to suit your preconceived messianic feelings. What he says is “once he died he KNEW HE WASNT MASHIACH”.July 15, 2019 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1758567
I actually once heard from a litveshe guy that the gr”a held that shlomo hamelech is moshiachJuly 15, 2019 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1758634
it says they knew he wasn’t moshiach, we also know the rebbe is not moshiach, but is not moshiach means during the current situation where he is not alive, halacha doesn’t speak about miracles, but if there will be a miracle (which the medrash says there will) than he is not anymore dead and can be moshiach once again, the rambam is saying that if someone is thought to be moshiach currently and then he dies it means that he is currently not moshiach, the rebbe is also currently not moshiach, and you can’t say he for sure will, all I am saying is that it is possible,July 15, 2019 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1758635
Meaning that untill techiyas hamiasim happens he cannot be moshiach according to halacha, but if techiyas hamiasim happens than he is just like any other live person, just like any halacha that applies to a dead person only applies while he is dead, halacha doesn’t take into account a miracle, but halacha doesn’t say a miracle isn’t possibleJuly 15, 2019 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1758640GadolhadorahParticipant
“I actually once heard from a litveshe guy that the gr”a held that shlomo hamelech is moshiach…”
And the gabbai sheini at our shul says his nephew heard in the name of a chashuve rav that Moishe Rabeiniu is moishiach. On a serious note, I find it both humorous and a bit bizarre that anyone, including rabbonim from across the spectrum, purport to “know” who is moishiach or even speculate on his identity.July 15, 2019 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1758653
I also want to point out that it is not a chiyuv to search for who is moshiach as it does not matter until he comes, I am just pointing out that it is possible, you don’t have to think that it will happen, all I am saying is that it is technically possibleJuly 16, 2019 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1758708yeshivishrockstar2Participant
” all I am saying is that it is technically possible”
Not true, you are saying it’s incumbent on a chassid to hope for his Rebbe to be Moshiach, which is stupid and makes chassidus into a sports team (and may I point out, no one outside of chabad believes this anyway).
Two: It’s not technically possible, because the Rebbe isn’t greater than Dovid Hamelech. Even ignoring the Rambam, and going with thw gemara which does say mashiach can come from the dead, it clearly states it will be Daniel, not the Rebbe.
Whatsaktome, its quite clear from your posts that all your knowledge in this sugya is from hearsay and you haven’t looked in anything inside. May I suggest you do that?July 16, 2019 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1758822
I actually have looked In the sources, secondly from where in my posts do u see that I believe it is incumbent on every chassid to believe so, I never said that as I don’t believe that, all I said is that since its technically possible and therefore its possible to hope so, not in any way do you have to, thirdly it’s not saying that he is greater than David hamelech, every generation has its leader and maybe hashem will chose the leader of the rebbes generation,July 16, 2019 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1758861
Also the rambam says that if someone is bechezkas moshiach and he fails or dies, we know he is not moshiach, the rebbe was never bechezkas moshiach or on his way to being moshiach, therefore if there is techiya and then the rebbe fulfilled the requirements he can be moshiach thenJuly 17, 2019 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1760311
Oh so This fresh piece of nonsense is that the closer you are to being mashiach the harder it is to be mashiach. I see that makes perfect sense. Only an ideologue to whom textual honesty and Halacha are irrelevant inconveniences, could write such a thing. You are the embodiment of something that was always puzzling to me. Ramban describes how it was windy during splitting of the sea so heretic could say it was a coincidence: now imagine that! That sea split in 12 rows perfectly all all Jews cross at exactly the time it had to. Subsequently all Egyptians who went in drown: That seems like more than a miracle than anything we can conceive. It seems like people can be so stubborn they can ignore the obvious to the point of embarrassing silliness.July 17, 2019 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1760413Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“On a serious note, I find it both humorous and a bit bizarre that anyone, including rabbonim from across the spectrum, purport to “know” who is moishiach or even speculate on his identity.”
Across the spectrum? Nobody does this except for Lubavitchers. The example to which you were replying was pure hearsay, as you yourself pointed out. Why do you think there would be such a controversy around Chabad if this were a normal behavior?July 17, 2019 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1760668
In response to chain Berlin, From a tzetel of the rebbe Adar I 5752:
“There is no obligation to search for who is Moshiach etc. but there is a positive mitzvah of the
Torah to love each and every Jew, and to avoid fights etc. absolutely – and certainly not to
intentionally do the opposite.”July 17, 2019 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1760664
וְאִם יַעֲמֹד מֶלֶךְ מִבֵּית דָּוִד הוֹגֶה בַּתּוֹרָה וְעוֹסֵק בְּמִצְוֹת כְּדָוִד אָבִיו. כְּפִי תּוֹרָה שֶׁבִּכְתָב וְשֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה. וְיָכֹף כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל לֵילֵךְ בָּהּ וּלְחַזֵּק בִּדְקָהּ. וְיִלָּחֵם מִלְחֲמוֹת ה’. הֲרֵי זֶה בְּחֶזְקַת שֶׁהוּא מָשִׁיחַ. (אִם עָשָׂה וְהִצְלִיחַ וּבָנָה מִקְדָּשׁ בִּמְקוֹמוֹ וְקִבֵּץ נִדְחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הֲרֵי זֶה מָשִׁיחַ בְּוַדַּאי. וִיתַקֵּן אֶת הָעוֹלָם כֻּלּוֹ לַעֲבֹד אֶת ה’ בְּיַחַד שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר כִּי אָז אֶהְפֹּךְ אֶל עַמִּים שָׂפָה בְרוּרָה לִקְרֹא כֻלָּם בְּשֵׁם ה’ וּלְעָבְדוֹ שְׁכֶם אֶחָד):
Now, if a king should arise from the House of David who is versed in Torah and engages in Commandments, as did David his forefather, in accordance with both the Written and the Oral Torahs, and he enjoins all of Israel to follow in its ways and encourages them to repair its breaches, and he fights the Wars of G-d128I.e. he defends Israel., then he may be presumed to be the Messiah. If he succeeds in his efforts and defeats the enemies around and builds the Sanctuary in its proper place and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Messiah.
וְאִם לֹא הִצְלִיחַ עַד כֹּה, אוֹ נֶהֱרָג, בְּיָדוּעַ שֶׁאֵינוֹ זֶה שֶׁהִבְטִיחָה עָלָיו תּוֹרָה, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְּכָל מַלְכֵי בֵּית דָּוִד הַשְּׁלֵמִים הַכְּשֵׁרִים שֶׁמֵּתוּ. וְלֹא הֶעֱמִידוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא אֶלָּא לְנַסּוֹת בּוֹ רַבִּים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “וּמִן הַמַּשְׂכִּילִים יִכָּשְׁלוּ לִצְרוֹף בָּהֶן וּלְבָרֵר וְלַלְבֵּן עַד עֵת קֵץ כִּי עוֹד לַמּוֹעֵד”.
But, if he does not succeed in these matters or is killed, we will know that he was not the one Torah has promised. He is (merely to be considered) like all the (other) exemplary and qualified kings of the House of David who have died. G-d set him up only to try the masses, as it says, “And some of the wise will stumble, to refine among them and to purify and to make white, even to the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed” (Daniel 11:35). Rambam malachim perek 11.
This means that if someone is bechezkas moshiach and then fails u should know that he is not anymore moshiach, but how does that mean that if someone has techiya and then fulfilled the requirements can’t be moshiachJuly 17, 2019 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1760731
I’m happy you quoted the rambam. He does say clearly as you where kind enough to quote that once someone dies they aren’t mashiach. “He is not the one the Torah promised”. He makes the same point again when he says after bar kochva died r Meir and his fellow rabbis KNEW HE ISNT MASHIACH. You are saying well maybe both of these statements don’t mean what they say clearly that the dead person isn’t mashiach. You decided like you’re like minded friends some millennium ago that there will be (or may be) a second coming. an aside rambam doesn’t at all assem that resurrection precedes mashiach. I can proof this last point if you need me to.July 17, 2019 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1760732
There are some intricate parts of Halacha this is as straight forward as it gets.July 17, 2019 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1760767
Let me quote from lekkutei sichos chelek beis pg 518 (translation from yiddish) “ppl ask how do I say that soon the dead will come back including the (previous) rebbe and he will lead us out of exile, the order is first moshiach will come and then there will be techiya, the answer is although the general techiya will accur after the coming of moshiach and the building of the beis hamikdash etc, but there will be a select few which will have techiya before moshiach comes, as is known from a few stories in shas and medrash of tzaddikin that did techiyas hamiasim, and like chazal say even the smallest of you can do techiya (avodah Zara 10b)” meaning that techiya can happen in gauls also, that’s the sicha, as of the rambam, the rambam says that someone who is halachaikly assumed to be moshiach (bechezkas moshiach) of he dies he is no longer moshiach, meaning that according to halacha he is for sure not moshiach as of now, also the rebbe is for sure not moshiach now as moshiach did not come yet, but if there is techiya before than the rebbe is like any other live person, the rambam is saying that once a assumed moshiach according to halacha dies he is now not moshiach according to halacha, the reason why we don’t believe it possible for j to be moshiach is because he was a koferJuly 17, 2019 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1760784
I Adressed the second part of your post several times now. It says once he died they knew he wasn’t mashiach/ knew not figured not guessed not theorized not knew unless there was a second coming but knew. dead people aren’t mashiach.unless you have something further to add I will not bother to comment further.July 17, 2019 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1760782Doing my bestParticipant
ChabadDefender and all other chabadskers,
Do you believe the Rebbe was a navi?
This Q is asked out of ignorance of your beliefs, as I’ve heard from some that chabad does, and from others that they don’t.July 17, 2019 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1760780keraveltheintParticipant
The thing is you’re missing the limud and context behind the statement that the “(previous) Rebbe will lead us out of exile”. If you look at the source of that statement, in Bosi L’gani yud alef, the Rebbe put a footnote corresponding to that statement to explain what was meant by it. I assume you haven’t learned it seeing as you are learning out the wrong context for the statement.
The context the Rebbe provides for the statement in the footnote is to perek yud tes (if I’m remembering correctly) of Bamidbor Rabba, and to the end of Sefer Chassidim, in both those places there’s expressed a similar idea: In Vayikra Rabba, it details a conversation between HKB”H and Moshe Rabbeinu, in which HKB”H responds to Moshe Rabbeinu’s request to go into eretz Yisroel:
אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה בְּאֵיזֶה פָּנִים אַתָּה מְבַקֵּשׁ לִכָּנֵס לָאָרֶץ, מָשָׁל לְרוֹעֶה שֶׁיָּצָא לִרְעוֹת צֹאנוֹ שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ וְנִשְׁבֵּית הַצֹּאן, בִּקֵּשׁ הָרוֹעֶה לִכָּנֵס לַפַּלְטֵרִין שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ, אָמַר לוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ אִם אַתְּ נִכְנַס עַכְשָׁו מַה יֹּאמְרוּ הַבְּרִיּוֹת שֶׁאַתָּה הִשְׁבֵּיתָ הַצֹּאן. אַף כָּאן אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה, שִׁבְחֲךָ הוּא שֶׁהוֹצֵאתָ שִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא וּקְבַרְתָּם בַּמִּדְבָּר, וְאַתְּ מַכְנִיס דּוֹר אַחֵר, עַכְשָׁיו יֹאמְרוּ אֵין לְדוֹר הַמִּדְבָּר חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, אֶלָּא תְּהֵא בְּצִדָּן וְתָבוֹא עִמָּהֶן, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים לג, כא): וַיֵּתֵא רָאשֵׁי עָם צִדְקַת ה’ עָשָׂה, לְכָךְ כְּתִיב (במדבר כ, יב): לֹא תָבִיאוּ אֶת הַקָּהָל הַזֶּה, אֶלָּא שֶׁיָּצָא עִמָּךְ.
“You will not bring this group (into the land which I have given you), rather it will enter with you.” That when moshiach comes (may it be speedily), Moshe Rabbeinu will lead his generation to greet moshiach (this is also the concept found at the end of Sefer HaChassidim). That does NOT imply that Moshe Rabbeinu will be moshiach, rather that he will help his generation meet moshiach and that they will be redeemed in his merit. That is what the Rebbe is saying with the statement you quoted, and THAT is why the Rebbe brings a minority opinion about techiya before moshiach, to explain how possibly the Rebbe RaYa”TZ ZY”A could lead his generation to greet moshiach.
This is also why the Rebbe ZY”A was constantly ADAMANT that people learn his footnotes! Because without doing so one can come to a completely mistaken understanding of the text as you did above.July 17, 2019 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1760781Doing my bestParticipant
” but if there is techiya before than the rebbe is like any other live person, the rambam is saying that once a assumed moshiach according to halacha dies he is now not moshiach according to halacha.”
I don’t really understand what you’re talking about, but if you’re trying to say that it’s still possible for a dead man to be mashiach later on except that there is no chazakah you read the rambam wrong. he says
“בְּיָדוּעַ שֶׁאֵינוֹ זֶה שֶׁהִבְטִיחָה עָלָיו תּוֹרָה”
“we will know that he was not the one Torah has promised.”
That’s a definite NOT.July 17, 2019 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1760783keraveltheintParticipant
Additionally, (and it shouldn’t be that it has to come to this, as the RaMBa”M is extremely clear in his loshon that once a person passes away they cannot be moshiach, including after a techiya,) the Rebbe ZY”A in his works about moshiach never implies that moshiach will be from those that passed away.
Furthermore, the Rebbe gave an entire farbrengen from mem hei about the job of a nosi once moshiach comes, which would seem to imply that once the nosi passes away, like any other tzadik they are not in the running for being moshiach.
Again, and I’ve said it before on this thread, if you would like ideas about how to keep the Rebbe ZY”A relevant in your life without twisting halacha and manipulating yourself, I would be more than happy to farbreng with you privately.July 17, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1760786
What is lekutei sichos?July 17, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1760789
Perhaps I should count my blessings. What your saying isn’t kefira. It prob isn’t even an issur of Navi sheker. It is simply an inability to read a rambam honestly resulting in a misunderstanding of Halacha. All things considered that great!July 18, 2019 6:39 am at 6:39 am #1760803motchah11Participant
The Sefer Chassidim siman resh vav (206) says that if a man is misnave about Moshiach, you know with certainty that he was fooling around with the Shem Hamiforash or other forbidden things , and bothrring either molochim or shaidim, and they got angry at him for it and so they told him this nonsense in order to embarrass him and those who believe in him.
Look it up yourself.July 18, 2019 6:39 am at 6:39 am #1760804
Kerevelheint once again thank you for being reasonable and normal. And thank you for doing so from a Lubavitch perspective.July 18, 2019 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1760809GadolhadorahParticipant
It is said that ALL of the lamid vov tzadikim from all of the generations will be among the select few who will constitute techiyas hamaysim PRIOR to the coming of Moishiach.July 18, 2019 6:45 am at 6:45 am #1760819
I actually did not know that about the footnote, thx for telling me, but i still think that the rambam doesn’t negate the possibility of someone to have techiya and be moshiach. The rambam says that if he died we know for sure that he is not the promised one, but rambam dosen’t say that he can’t become the promised one later if he has techiya, rather rambam is saying that he is for sure not the one the Torah promised as of nowJuly 18, 2019 6:45 am at 6:45 am #1760820
And lekkutei sichos is the rebbes torah work compiled according to the parsha, but on all parts of torahJuly 18, 2019 6:46 am at 6:46 am #1760823
Either way it doesn’t really matter, there is no chiyuv of speculating who moshiach will be etc mo matter how you read the rambam, The main thing is to do Torah and mitzvos etc to bring moshiachJuly 18, 2019 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1760824
After thinking about it, it seems that from the rambam that he will never be moshiach, but it does sound like from the rambam the he means someone who according to halacha is bechezkas moshiach and fails he will nvr be moshiach and was just placed there for a test, which is why the rambam writes killed, because the emphasis here is that he failed, but for a reg person which dies if he has techiya maybe he can be moshiach, because he never was a failed moshiach,July 18, 2019 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1760906Yserbius123Participant
@Whatsaktome That’s not a shitta held of by a single authority outside of modern Chabad.July 18, 2019 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1761022Uncle BenParticipant
Whatsaktome; I don’t know how old you are but I clearly remember from before ג’ תמוז how Lubavichers (& not from BT background but FFB Bnei Torah) would tell me how the Rebbe was bechezkas Moshiach going thru the Rambams criteria & explaining how he fulfilled them.
Also at one point they were crowing how the Rebbe proclaimed הגיע זמן גאולתכם
“בתורת נבואה”!July 18, 2019 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #1761046
“Why would somebody believe the rabbi shneerson is mashiach? You don’t have to believe that.it isn’t complicated .i and certainly won’t believe anyone is mashiach until they fulfill all of requirements listed in the rambam.”
That is quite the Catch 22. So when a Ben David arises to be king and he says to you lets go fight the wars of Hashem and build the Beis Hamikdash you will tell him, “listen buddy, I won’t believe you are Moshiach until after you fulfill all of the requirements,” and therefore there never will be a Moshiach and there never will be a building of the Beis Hamikdash R”LJuly 18, 2019 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1761064
I know, but they where wrong, here is a quote from a sicha 12 tammuz 5727 “Yokum Ish – a person, with 248 limbs and 365 sinews and he will be seen with physical eyes
and it will be possible to ‘ontapen mit di hent’ (felt with hands) and he will be seen in all aspects
as a person is seen.”
b) Melech literally means a king; “men darf a kuk ton tzi halt er fun democratye.”
c) Yokuf kol Yisroel – “yederun fun yiden” (each and every Jew) ‘kefiah dosis’ (religious
coercion). (The Rebbe explains that because bechira will still exist there may be a Jew who will
not want to be mkayem Torah and Mitzvos Moshiach will force him.)
d) Yilchem milchemes Hashem – means literally a war “a (real) war but in a way of peace.”,July 18, 2019 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1761065🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
5ish – I hear your point, but, it isn’t really fair to say that because we are questioning the claim that your rebbe qualifies for moshiach, that we will have any trouble at all recognizing that the one who reveals himself following the blowing of the shofar and the announcement by moshiach ben Yosef. That was a bit immature of a connection and not quite up to your standard here.July 18, 2019 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1761291Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“So when a Ben David arises to be king and he says to you lets go fight the wars of Hashem and build the Beis Hamikdash you will tell him, “listen buddy, I won’t believe you are Moshiach until after you fulfill all of the requirements,””
So, when a Ben David who isn’t the Rebbe (because it won’t be) arises to be king and he says to you lets go fight the wars of Hashem and build the Beis Hamikdash you will tell him, “listen buddy, we already have a moshiach. Go away.”July 18, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1761393
I already addressed that previously, for a select few there could be techiyas hamiasim, not for all the yidden because that will happen after moshiach comes,July 18, 2019 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1761394
That post was a mistake I misread somethingJuly 18, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1761405
Please see the Rambam Hilchos Malachim. Anything not mentioned by the Rambam is not al pi halacha and will not necessarily happen. The Rambam describes a very natural process of the Messianic redemption. If someone will not accept a Messianic candidate to some extent without him already building the Bais Hamikdosh, or waiting for all manner of miraculous signs (which the Rambam says will not necessarily happen), then Moshiach cannot come according to that person in the way described by the Rambam. Such a worldview is kefira.
My comments have nothing to do with mine or anyone’s beliefs regarding the messianic claims or identities of any individual. I am mere commenting on a heretical comment above.
Rambam writes in Hilchos Melachim
ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדויד אביו כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה וילחם מלחמות ה’ הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח
According to the false logic above, no candidate would even get to even Chezkas Moshiach because as soon as he tried to rally support for his cause you would have people saying, “I won’t believe you are Moshiach until AFTER you build the Bais Hamikdash.”
II would hope that l’chol hapachus if one of the Gedolei HaTorah was a Ben David and claimed to be a messianic candidate that someone wouldn’t laugh and be dismissive because if so then they don’t really believe it is possible for Moshiach to come.
And again, I repeat, according to Halacha there is no need for an announcement by Eliyahu HaNavi, Moshiach ben Yosef, no flying eagles or men on donkeys etc etc etc.July 18, 2019 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1761416🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
5ish – I hear you, and I appreciate the explaination. I still say that you are giving ‘knee-jerk’ responses. The fact that people have legitimate tainos against the claim of lubavitchers crowning their rebbe moshiach for specific reasons is not a reason for you to accuse them of not recognizing moshiach when he comes. And from all I have leaned, nobody will be building the third bais hamikdash so it’s a moot point.July 18, 2019 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1761465
Again it is not a knee jerk reaction. I am not accusing the people are large at not being able to recognize Moshiach when he comes, and certainly not as a result of any tainos anyone has on the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
My comment was directed to one person’s comment which smack of heresy.
I do not know “all you learnt” but it sounds like you are misinformed if you believe exclusively that Bayis Shlishi will not be built by the Jewish people. The Rambam writes b’ferush and l’halacha that there is nothing supernatural about the Messianic era and that Moshiach is not required to perform any miracles or wonders. Yes there are others who differ and there may be ways to reconcile them, but that does not change that the halachic opinion of one of the preeminent rishonim and poskim in history holds that it is entirely possible that all of the Redemption will transpire in a completely natural way.July 18, 2019 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1761478
It is very simple he will not come and say he is mashiach. He may not even know he is mashiach. He will simply be a godol and do all those thing and then we’ll realize he is mashiach.July 19, 2019 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1761628
Whether or not he will say he is Moshiach cannot be known one way or the other as that is not something discussed in Halachic sources. As far as your contention that he will be a Gadol who will do those things, that was exactly my whole point. A Gadol getting up and doing those things is akin to a bid for Messianic candidacy. But according to the logic of the post I was criticizing, one would not recognize the bid or claim to messianic candidacy until after the fact. Therefore, nothing would get done. A King would arise in Israel and say, let us fight the wars of Israel, and return the Holy Land, and Build the Beis Hamikdash,” and such a person would answer, “Nah, first you build the Beis Hamikdash and then I will believe you are Moshiach.”July 19, 2019 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1761659yeshivishrockstar2Participant
5ish, it’s amazing that a chassidus that deovtes itself to learning the Rambam can’t even parse a simple Rambam. The answer to your question is in the question itself: The king will be listened to BECAUSE HE IS A KING. And if you don’t listen to a king, you die. Simple. Only after he does all the things will he be Moshiach. But it won’t matter, because we listen to him due to his status of king, not of Moshaich.
BTW, the Rebbe was not a king, so he isn’t Moshiach.July 19, 2019 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1761679
I agree with you that we don’t know how things will happen. My point is I don’t think it is difficult to conceptualize. Let me present a theoretical scenario. There is a big Baal teshuva movement. Religious Jews also will have many more kids. All or almost all of Israel becomes frum. They elect a gadol as a prime minister. He fights political and strategic wars. Then after fulfilling all conditions, he announces he is mashiach.July 19, 2019 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1761699
\Yeshivishrockstar, I will not even entertain your comments which are laughable. Your comment proves exactly my point.
Greymatter, regarding electing a gadol as prime minister, the medina is treyf.July 19, 2019 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1761742👑RebYidd23Participant
5ish, I will not even dignify your posts with a response, other than this one.July 19, 2019 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1761744manomarParticipant
In order for the natural redemption described by the rambam to take place (to begin and reach the “cheskas mashiach” status of mashiach, which literally mens that at this point we can/should/have to presume that thisperson is Mashiach, before we can test him whether he will become the certain mashiach) , it is necessary to be a living political leader ( with enormous power similar to a King) who has political power who (on top of being a Godol Batorah and Mitzvot and Yirat Shamayim) COERCES the Jewish people to come back to the ways of torah and mitzvot (has at least the power to make it happen at least to the majority of Jews) and has to fight the the Wars of G-d which include undoubtedly the wars against the enemies of the Jewish people…since we are talking about a natural process it would have to be measured and perceived by the people naturally that this is the work of the Maashiach (does not suffice to say that it was a spiritual war that is attributed to a spiritual leader….the enemy must acknowledge that that is afraid of this leader)…and then and only then does this person reach the level of “cheskat mashiach”…
I think that for one to await mashiach right now mamash (as we all so eagerly wait and as the rambam himself codifies in the 13 principles of faith) it cannot happen in our day and age right now if not for lots of miraculous hands….it is easier to await and identify a mashiach that it happens right now if it happens by the methods of rishinom that things (building of the bet mikdash including mashiach’s coming etc) will happen miraculously…
I am not advocating either method…as long that it happens a quick and fast…and to point out that claiming at others that they contain heresy or the like for saying they will not accept mashiach until builds beys hamikdash and state “If someone will not accept a Messianic candidate to some extent without him already building the Bais Hamikdosh, or waiting for all manner of miraculous signs (which the Rambam says will not necessarily happen), then Moshiach cannot come according to that person in the way described by the Rambam”, is practically speaking futile and inaccurate talk , since the way in which the Rambam does describe the natural process to take place , including also the acceptance of the person to a mashiach candidate “to some extent” , requires of him to make the aforementioned tasks, that insofar as we can see in our eyes in the natural process, did not begin to take place yet, and for that to happen we need to see how that candidate uses the powers akin to a king (in our times) and uses them in terms of “coercing” all (or halachikally most is like all) Jews to accept the ways of observing Torah and Mitzvot and he fights the wars against the enemies of Hashem in a way that for instance Iran and our Arab enemies will be defeated by the physical wars that this leader wages and THEY will perceive tat his leader defeated them….
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