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  • #1752469

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    A wonderful video was just posted on collive dotcom, by the famous Stump the Rabbi Program, in which Rabbi Noam Wagner, the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad Yeshiva in Johannesburg, South Africa, explains whether the Rebbe ever declared himself to be moshiach. This issue has caused much controversy on CR and I feel that if people watch this video, it may make them think things over about what they previously thought about this subject.

    I have tried explaining this issue on YWN but I did not meet with much success, as I myself am not particularly good when it comes to explaining long and complicated concepts, and there are many mekoros and deios in regards to this specific subject, so if viewers have an objection or comment I would like to see it and try and explain. I invite the mods themselves to view the video and see for themselves if it is appropriate enough to post.

    #1752692

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    So: Defend Chabad: Is the Rebbe the Moshiach: YES OR NO? If it’s not a clear unequivocal no, there’s something off in your yiddishkeit. There’s nothing wrong with being chabad (at all!) but there IS something wrong in changing yiddishkeit to meet your emotional need to believe a dead person as moshiach.

    #1752693

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    I just SAW it for myself:
    Typical Chabad word salad by someone with sever cognitive dissonance.

    THE REBBE IS NOT MOSHIACH. HE NEVER WILL BE. ITS 25 YEARS. FACE THE FACTS.

    #1752694

    Joseph
    Participant

    Please summarize here his main point.

    #1752718

    Ferd
    Participant

    This video says it all. I rest my case.

    View this post on Instagram

    A very interesting Chabad Chupa in front of 770

    A post shared by TheYeshivaWorld.com (@theyeshivaworld) on

    #1752722

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Hashem Yeracheim. Avoda Zarah. Now of course Sechel Hayashar and Milhouse will defend it….

    #1752723

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “One nation under one Rebbe…”

    Was his name YESHU???

    #1752725

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar: “So: Defend Chabad: Is the Rebbe the Moshiach: YES OR NO?”
    Of course I believe that the Rebbe is moshiach and so does every other Lubavitcher believe so, even if their scared to announce it. I already mentioned the incident with Rabbi Shloime Cunin, on the thread titled “when did Chabad become a kiruv-oriented Chassidus?”, and how he announced in front of a large crowd of Lubavitchers, seemingly unaware of the cameras that videoing the speech: “The Rebbe runs the world, and he will take us out of golus”. In that video, we see how even the Head Shliach of California acknowledges that the Rebbe is Moshiach. There is nothing wrong with saying that and we have many halachic sources to back up our claim, including the many sichos where the rebbe iterates that all the nesiim of Chabad where the Moshiach of their generation.

    You saw in the video yourself how Rabbi Wagner brings down sources from many sichos of the Rebbe, where the Rebbe pretty clearly hints to the fact that he’s Moshiach. Are you insinuating that the Rebbe was wrong?

    #1752740

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Defend Chabad: I’m not insinuating it, I’m saying it straight out.

    Now your turn to answer: Do you think the Rebbe cannot err?

    #1752754

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    DC, if so, can you explain the difference between Chabad and Christianity? The way you describe it, it sounds like there might not be one.

    #1752771

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Pick any Torah -observing Jew you like – living or dead – and ask yourself, “Do I believe that this person is Moshiach?”
    If your answer is unequivocal (either yes or no), then either you are a Navi, or else you are speaking foolishly.

    #1752778

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Goldilocks: Third Option: Or I learnt the gemaros and halachos that tell us certain people CANNOT be Moshiach.
    Halacha isn’t foolish. (But you seem to be.)

    #1752814

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar: I am not rude (but you seem to be)

    #1752815

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar: I would be far more impressed with your learned opinion had you stopped after the first sentence.

    #1752787

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    1. Grab a yellow flag.
    2. Take an Uber to Eastern Parkway and Kingston Ave.
    3. Run up and down Eastern Parkway between Brooklyn and Kingston Avenues
    4. Go home for the evening
    5. Repeat Steps 1-4 until there are reports of someone riding a white donkey down the median strip of Francis Lewis Blvd. near the Ohel heading towards the Grand Central Parkway
    6. Run home and pack for a flght to EY

    #1752831

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Goldilox: I am rude to anyone who claims to be part of a chassidus that’s all about “moshiach” yet 99% have no clue about any of the halachos (Ie, they think Moshiach can come from the dead)

    #1752868

    too geshmak
    Participant

    I’ve come across the stumptherabbi YouTube channel before. It’s quite comical, they tackle questions such as, “can the rebbe make a mistake?” (Spoiler alert: the answer is no). Most of the questions are answered using only the rebbe as a source. So for example, “how do we know that the rebbe cannot err? Because the rebbe said that a rebbe cannot err”. I hope that this channel represents a very small minority of Chabad. The videos are not long, each one is about 5 or 6 minutes long, its worthwhile to see them because when you see the cognitive dissonance and how far they are from normative Judaism, you’ll realize arguing and engaging in discussion is hopeless and you’ll save yourself the aggravation.

    #1752869

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Yeshivarockstar:
    1) When did I claim to be part of any chassidus?
    2) If I did, in fact, belong to a chassidus that you don’t agree with, is that a reason to be rude?
    3) I sincerely hope I misunderstood you – please tell me you’re not insulting an entire chassidus!

    #1752870

    bk613
    Participant

    I believe there is a concept that in every generation there is 1 person who is potentially moshiach, if the generation is deserving. Is there a problem with believing that the Lubavitch Rebbe was that designated man in his generation?

    #1752891

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Why would somebody believe the rabbi shneerson is mashiach? You don’t have to believe that.it isn’t complicated .i and certainly won’t believe anyone is mashiach until they fulfill all of requirements listed in the rambam.

    #1752893

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    BTW, Defend Chabad, the video on Collive was taken down. I guess it wasn’t enough “beofen hamiskabel” for them.

    #1753034

    user176
    Participant

    Defend Chabad. You are an oved avoda Zara. I urge you to identify yourself at any Jewish event to warn Jews to keep their distance. Do not touch their wine and should a Jewish girl be interested in a shiduch with your son be sure to inform them that you are Oved avoda Zara. I further urge you to open your eyes to actual talmide chachamim and do teshuva.

    #1752927

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Goldilocks: By going down the “Rebbe could be Moshiach” route you’ve unwittingly telegraphed you are part of a certain chassidus, because no one outside of chabad believes these crazy word salads of “could be moshiach” “chezkas but not vadai” etc. Every normal frum yid believes a dead guy is not moshiach end of story. (And don’t bring me the Abarbanel, Rashi in Sanhedrin etc, they’re taken out of context as much, if not more than, the New Testament takes Tanach out of context for it’s purposes.)

    And yes, I DID insult a whole chassidus (Or rather a whole chassidus insulted itself by believing that a dead person with no apparant qualifications is Moshiach).

    bk613: There is nothing wrong believing the rebbe WAS that person in the generation. But 99% of Chabad believes he IS (or could be)., even though he patently isn’t.

    too geshmak: That video channel is representative of Chabad today unfortunately. I know their arguments quite well as a an ex-chabadnik.

    #1752944

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    The question of whether Rav Schneerson ZT”L ever declared himself to be Moshiach, is more a criticism on the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself as opposed to his followers.

    He’s not Moshiach. He won’t be Moshiach. He never was Moshiach. Those are inarguable facts that every frum Yid should know. If you claim otherwise, you aren’t a frum Yid. If he claimed otherwise, then perhaps he isn’t the Gadol we thought he was. Baruch Hashem, even from this video I fail to see how he every claimed to be Moshiach.

    #1753071

    keraveltheint
    Participant

    Hi,
    I’ve been lurking on these different Chabad threads, and watching with horror for some time now. And as much as I try to not mix in, I cant hold myself back any longer. I’m a Lubavitcher, and I really believe in the derech and limud the Rebbe ZY”A laid out for us.

    But people like Defend Chabad are ruining it for the rest of us. This selfish drive to identify the Rebbe as moshiach is not only contrary to the rulings of the RaMBaM in his Hilchos Melachim, but also is contrary to the Rebbe’s kavanna in this entire topic…

    The Rebbe wasn’t trying to declare himself moshiach CH”V, he was trying to raise awareness of moshiach, and to hasten his coming with acts of goodness and kindness. This terrorism that has been propagated by a certain sector of Chabad is out of control and it’s time for it to end.

    It’s sickening for me to see people take the Rebbe’s words and twist them to fit their own agendas. This foolish claim has never been, nor will ever be the intent or purpose of Chabad.

    Defend Chabad, if you want to hear some ideas about how you can keep the Rebbe relevant in your life without starting your own religion, please feel free to PM me.

    And no, not every Lubavitcher “thinks the Rebbe is moshiach, but some are just too afraid to say it” that is a laughable claim that I’ve only ever heard from messianists.

    Enough of this already. This is ridiculous and out of control. Please do tshuva.

    #1753104

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Keraveltheint: You sound like a ernste sane chabadnik! Kol Hakavod to you!

    Now can you clearly say: “The Rebbe’s not Moshiach. He will never be Moshiach.” If you can, You are exactly what chabad needs. If not, you’re part of the problem.

    #1753106

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    BTW, Keraveltheint, I want to frame your response and hang it on the wall of all chabad houses. Unfortunately, too many people are scared to come straight out and say it, which is why many of us believe that all chabadniks believe the Rebbe is (or could be) Moshiach,

    #1753133

    Grey matter
    Participant

    keraveltheint that is a very reasonable perspective. I would like to think that many Lubavitcher chasidim share your view. Or else that they will come to.Thank you

    #1754302

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    Welcome to me back.

    #1754305

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    “He will never be moshiach”. Yeshivisherockstar, how do you really know? (rhetorical question). A better way of arguing your point is to say that anyone who has not fulfilled all the criteria listed by the rambam in hilchos melachim to identify moshiach, then he is not moshiach. Just as i am not yet moshiach, (and no, i dont think i ever will be moshiach even though i cant prove that. And proof that i will not be moshiach is not needed because i havent fullfiled the criteria of moshiach. So You and I and the lubavitcher rebbe are the same in this regard.)

    #1754328

    BneiBarakObama
    Participant

    “a ridiculous claim made only made by messianists”. I have heard this claim made by many so-called non messianists as well. Is it the so called radicals within chabad or the gradual radicalization of chabad? radical islam or Islamic radicalization? lhavdil.

    #1754343

    David Y
    Participant

    My view is that the flaw in the argument commences when we ask the question: Is there not supposed to be Mashiach ben Yoseph who dies fighting the war of Gog and Magog, AND THEN comes Mashiach ben David? See the traditional texts in the subject such as מלחמות מלך המשיח.
    I find that after asking this question of a Chabad Devotee they say “yes but if we merit it we could bypass the wars with Mashiach Ben Yosef and go straight to a peaceful transition under Mashiach Ben David”.
    From there it is a short distance to the muddy waters stirred up around the memory of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, may he be remembered for good, whereby we hear of amazing Ruach HaKodesh and help in many, many, people’s lives but then that is automatically equated with being the Mashiach or the best candidate.
    But when the fervour set in so many years ago and they began wheeling out an incapacitated Rebbe saying that Hashem will heal him, and later, he either didn’t die because a Tzaddik is more with us after his passing then before, or secretly whispering that he will raise from the kever, one realises that this has become an halachic merry-go-round with no end.
    The reality, in my view is, that just as when we were in Mitzraim, we have failed to generate the enormous zchut to be redeemed on our own merits alone which is the basis of a purely peaceful Mashiach ben David alone.
    Let’s wake up and smell the roses.
    David

    #1756476

    “…halachic sources to back up our claim, including the many sichos…”

    Sichos are not a halachic source.

    #1756551

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    From Bnei Barack: “So You and I and the lubavitcher rebbe are the same in this regard.”

    No, The Lubavitcher Rebbe is worse, because he’s dead.

    #1758085

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    The rebbe is definitely not moshiach as of now, but I think it is possible (I didn’t say for sure, I said possible) for him to be .moshiach later on, the medrash says that there will be a resurrection before moshiach comes, if the rebbe is resurrected then, he can be moshiach then. As of now though there is no halachik proof for that, although some ppl hope that the rebbe will be resurrected then and then become moshiach which is not a problematic hope according to halacha

    #1758094

    yeshivishrockstar2
    Participant

    Whatsaktome – really? You really think it’s possible? Out of all the potential moshiachs – Dovid hamelech, Daniel, Chazal, Rabi Shimon Bar Yochai, etc etc, the biggest of all of them is the Rebbe? That’s insane. That’s why any Chabadnik who believes that the Rebbe “could” be Moshiach has something wrong in his yiddishkeit – because he implicitly believes (whether he is aware of it or not) that the Rebbe is bigger than all the other gedolim who are also dead.

    Now it’s possible that while the Rebbe was alive he was the biggest in his generation – and even a potential Moshiach. That’s not nuts at all to believe in. But once he starts competing with dead people, no way he’s the greatest.

    #1758095

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Actually it is Rambam writes that rabbi Akiva and his whole generation all thought bar kochva was mashiach until he died then they realized he isn’t. In other words once you die you’re out of the running. This was always the case until the talmidim of yoshke came along. It also seems to be a trendy way of think in certain CR rooms.

    #1758121

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    So now we have two active Chabad/Moshiach threads!

    #1758189

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    Do you think rabbi akiva thought that bar kochba was greater than all the other tanaim of his dor?

    #1758184

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    If someone was thought to be moshiach and then he died it means he isn’t, he isn’t moshiach anymore, could he technically be later on if things change, maybe, but now he isn’t, some lubavitchers hope that that one day there will be techiyas hamiasim and the rebbe will become moshiach not because they believe that he was greater than everyone that ever lived, but because they hope that they’re rebbe will become moshiach, they are not saying for sure, they are not asking anyone else to believe that, that is just what they hope, why is it a problem for a chassid to hope that his rebbe will become moshiach eventually, and many ppl in Judaism hoped that they’re rebbe or teacher will become moshiach, it isn’t a new thing, what’s new is some crazy ppl who think the rebbe is for sure moshiach and they have to convince that to everyone else etc, that’s new and not in line with Judaism

    #1758203

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    We don’t think that the rebbe was greater than Moshe rabbeinu ch”v (for example) but who said that hashem is going to chose for moshiach the greatest person that ever lived, especially that the rebbe cared for each jew to a crazy extent in the recent galus, so as chassidim we hope that hashem will chose him

    #1758210

    Grey matter
    Participant

    The rambam I quoted earlier. It’s in the second to last chapter of malachim explicitly says dead people can’t be mashiach.

    #1758296

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “so as chassidim we hope that hashem will chose him”

    Apparently Hashem didn’t. Because, you know, he died.

    #1758319

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    Dead ppl can’t be moshiach means when they are dead, if they come back in techiya they can since then they aren’t dead, halacha follows nature so dead ppl can’t be .oshiach since if they are dead they are dead, but if they later are alive because of techiya then they aren’t anymore included in that halacha

    #1758314

    MDG
    Participant

    …if things change, maybe, but now he isn’t, some lubavitchers hope that that one day there will be techiyas hamiasim and the rebbe will become moshiach…

    Ribbi Akiva and the Rambam don’t agree with that idea.

    #1758312

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    I said will, he can be chosen after he died if he comes back in the techiyas hamiasim that will happen before moshiach comes, when he dies applies to someone who was thought to be moshiach so when he dies that is a proof that he isn’t, the rebbe was never .moshiach to die to not be moshiach, and if he is in the techiyas hamiasim hashem can choose him then

    #1758347

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    Let me reiterate one more time something which everyone here clearly didn’t understand, the rambam writes that someone who was thought to be moshiach (bar kochba, meaning ppl thought that he WAS MOSHIACH THEN) since he died, ppl knew he wasn’t moshiach, because a dead person can’t be moshiach, the rebbe was never even bechezkas moshiach according to halacha, so just like he wasn’t moshiach in his lifetime so to he isn’t moshiach now, but if there is techiya than when he is alive then he is like any other live person who is possible to be moshiach, the rambam never negates that possibility, all the rambam says is if there is someone who is assumed to be moshiach when be dies you should know that he is not moshiach, the rebbe was never bechezkas moshiach to not be moshiach later rather the rebbe was like anyone else who wasn’t moshiach during his life and isn’t moshiach afterwards, but if there is techiya then when that happens the rebbe is like any other live person who can be chosen as moshiach then

    #1758351

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why not Shlomo Hamelech then?

    #1758360

    Grey matter
    Participant

    I don’t believe you followed the proof from the rambam. Rabbi Akiva and his generation knew bar kochva was not mashiach after he died. It doesn’t say they thought maybe he will come back to life and then be mashiach. It says after he died they knew he isn’t mashiach. Once someone dies they are out. It is hard to imagine a stronger proof in Halacha for any concept than the one I just provided

    #1758408

    Grey matter
    Participant

    As an aside,I’m not sure why you assume techiyas hamesim is before mashiach. Rambam says it is after Mashiach so even if we where to delete (or essentially ignore) the previously mentioned Rambam, the timeline still won’t add up.

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