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I’ve been noticing something the last few years that is quite disturbing. Many seminary girls have been getting engaged within the year they return home. This is honestly a major problem. Many of these girls think they’re so shtark, so when they come home they delete WhatsApp and non Jewish music for a month until they get out of their “seminary bubble”. I personally will not let my daughter date until she is 21. What does everyone else think about this issue?
What we really think, and I can safely say I am speaking for GH, Commonsense and coffee addict as well, is that you are obviously very young and new and that we hope your posts don’t get too irritating and that you aren’t missing class.
🙃Girls should get engaged and married while in Beis Yaakov or very shortly after graduating. Otherwise they lose their ideals.
Why would post-seminary girls listen to non-Jewish music?
I think he’s (even as he’s new and young) saying a good point, that we have to check our daughters hashkafos if they are deep or just a seminary bubble
To rabbi j: Do you actually have a daughter? You sound the age of a bochur, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
huju: rabbi j is at an age where he could be either a bochor or a yungerman.
I think 20-21 is the right age for girls and boys these days to get engaged. I would say to start listening by 19. I wish for everyone in the parsha to have an easy and quick time finding their zivugim.
Syag – “…aren’t missing class.”
Double meaning?!?
If a girl gets married to a Ben Torah while still idealistic, before she begins to accept the “real world” perspective and gets deflated by her co workers and everyone else, she has a better chance of retaining that enthusiasm
Every girl and every situation is different. Some are ready at 18 and not at 80.
I’m just curious
what is wrong with letting the girls decide?
and
are you really doing this for her or for you?
one side effect of waiting longer is that you either don’t need to help out as much or if you are really lucky she decides she wants a working guy, and then you dont need to support at all. So how much self interest is involved with your decision making?> you are really lucky she decides she wants a working guy
what do you mean by “lucky”? If you think, she should marry someone who does not work, then why “lucky”? If you don’t think so, you can just make it known that you are not planning to support them, and let her go from there.
There might be a problem of competition here: if “everybody” (in that community) marries at earlier age, then this girl will be at disadvantage. It may be that those who get professions, get married later? So, if she finishes BS by 21, maybe she’ll have her choice of MS and PhD candidates?
mentsch1: If the girl decides to get married at 16, you’ll still be in favor of letting her decide? Or you’re only in favor of letting her decide to get married later but wouldn’t let her get married younger?
ajm, most girls decide to get married long before 16 years of age, they are just not ready and haven’t found their beshert. They know that they do want to get married in the future. Rare is the frum girl who doesn’t want to get married. In New York, New Jersey and many states they can’t legally marry at 16 even if they want to.
ujm
Your hashkafos are clearly krum
why limit her to 16
she reaches maturity at 12and yes always
I thought my quotations were implied by the way i phrased itYaakov, most states will marry 16 year olds. If one happens to live in another state that doesn’t, you can easily marry in a state which permits it.
“In New York, New Jersey and many states they can’t legally marry at 16 even if they want to”
Transfer to Ner Yisroel in Baltimore….a beis yaakov girl in Maryland can marry at 15 YOYakov, unfortunately 16 yos can get married with their parents permission in many states.
New York’s minimum age for marriage was 14 until four years ago.
dude theres nothing wrong with being a bochur on CR but dont pretend to be someone older then you are. i am not saying anyone is faking Ch’v just implying it.
“New York’s minimum age for marriage was 14 until four years ago…”
UJM: Are you lamenting it being raised to 18, should have been maintained at 14 or reduced to 12?
In Maryland, to marry without parental consent, a person must be at least 18 years old. If one of the parties is 16 or 17 years old, the parties may marry with parental consent. Under 16 there are exceptions which don’t apply to frum people.
Baltimore mayven is correct regarding Maryland statute. For an individual who is 15 YO, marriage IS permitted but only with parental consent AND a physician’s certification regarding pregnancy.
I am confused how you ca marry before you can legally drink from the cup under the chuppah
Quite a few states have no minimum age for marriage, altogether.
ujm, we are talking about girls from our heimishe communities, not some hillbillies from the South who do not have normal functioning families and have extra-familial relationships. Just because these kind marriages used to work for them 100+ years ago does not mean that it works today. 95% of these marriages are a total failure with disfunctioning and broken families.
Today we need strong marriages. Girls and boys need to have an understanding of themselves and what they are looking for a spouse. Of course, working on our middos is extremely important, that is the basis for a successful marriage. But before that, it is important for bucharim and girls to know what type of frum family lifestyle they want and to be mature enough to marry.
It seems that ignorance is abundant, and that saichel has gone to sleep. These generalizations are silly, even childish. There are girls who are ready for marriage before seminary, and there are others who aren’t ready even after it. No girl shoud get married because of her biological age, and no one should enter a marriage bond just because others from their peer group do. It’s an individual thing. I am aware that many a parent will begin to address the subject of marriage when a child reaches a certain age. But that doesn’t tell us a bit about readiness.
Quite a few of the broad strokes in earlier comments are nothing shy of ridiculous. Some girls emerge from seminary with zero enthusiasm about Yiddishkeit, while others are brimming over with spirituality. There are so many variables that determine the health of a marriage that focusing on one or two speaks little for intellect.
Chazal give age deadlines to get married by.
The little I know, some girls feel ready to get married by 16, do you support that?
ujm, where is it written the “deadline” that girls have to marry? According to halacha women do not need to get married.
ujm:
That’s not true or relevant to this conversation. There is specific mention about boys marrying by 18, בן שמונה עשרה לחופה, and the Gemora says הגיע לעשרים ולא נשא אשה תיפח עצמותיו. There is no such statement about girls. If you have one, share the reference. If someone is not marriage material, regardless of any age, there is no posek that would push for marriage. I know that the “til death do us part” is a goyishe expression. But Torah does not push for marriage just to divorce or have a suffering situation because one or both parties are not ready.
Once again, Chazal are making a statement about expectations. Not a deadline.
philosopher:
I do not support girls being convinced at age 16 that they are ready for marriage. Can’t say that they cannot be ready, but I am not apt to buy their proclaiming to be ready just because they say that. What I am saying is that readiness is not determined by the age according to one’s birth certificate. Nor is the announcing that one is ready a clear indication of anything. I have watched people believe they were ready when it was clearly untrue. I find these generalizations irritating.
The Gemara in Kiddushin says the maximum age for marriage is 20. The Shulchan Aruch in EH says a person should be beaten if he doesn’t get married by then. Beis Din can force Reuven to marry Dina if they are refusing to marry by the age.
Some shittos (Maharshal) hold that if he’s learning Torah full-time then he must get married by 24.
ujm:
Go ahead. Make sure that every bochur is married by 20. But then you should follow the suggestion of Rav Henkin ZT”L. He recommended that when the rav arranges the writing and signing of the kesubah, he should attend to the gett. He probably said that tongue in cheek. But your proposal makes it necessary.
The age for marriage is determined by way too many other factors. And your making date of birth the only one to matter, you are essentially doing publicity for toanim and batei din, and for lawyers and courts. I caould also add in therapists and askanim.
Your statement of “maximum age of 20” is not pshat in the Gemora. So the Roshei Yeshivos who had talmidim learning well past that age were מסייעים לדבר עבירה? If that’s your message, I will not participate in any further discussion.
“The Shulchan Aruch in EH says a person should be beaten if he doesn’t get married by then. Beis Din can force Reuven to marry Dina if they are refusing to marry by the age ..”
Do you really think anyone will respond any more to your seemingly endless obsession and trolling with this meshugaas? In the real world, young men and women marry when they feel ready and after discussions with their parents and Rav and could are less about such arbitrary deadlines. I think the batei din are more likely to impose beatings on the next misogynistic fanatic who posts a new thread about the “shidduch crisis” than issue a psak that Reuven and Dina must show up at some simcha hall by date certain.
TLIK:Vus vilstu? You asked me to quote the Halacha, so I did so for you. You wrote to me “If you have one, share the reference. If someone is not marriage material, regardless of any age, there is no posek that would push for marriage.” Pru urvu is the posek that makes it mandatory al pi Torah to get married. Yes, getting married is mandatory. I gave you the Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch that there is a halachicly required age deadline.
You don’t like the Halacha. It’s it 21st century, it is America, things are different. The Torah is from 3000 years ago, the Gemorah is from 1500 years ago, the Shulchan Aruch is from 500 years ago. Times are achanging. I’ve heard it all. But what do you want from me that you ask ”
And if it “is not pshat in the Gemora.”, pray tell please how does the Gemorah (and Shulchan Aruch) mean something other than the very simple, basic and straightforward words it clearly says.
And your maaisala of Rav Jenkins is completely twisted out of shape from what he in fact said, which was in regards to his disagreement with the Tzadik Hador, the Satmar Rebbe ZT’L, regarding shidduchim.
Regarding the Roshei Yeshivos and their talmidid, did you completely miss my citation of the shittos that anyone learning Torah full time has a dispensation to get married by later than before their 24th birthday? Of course, anyone not a full time learner is subject to being married by 20.
Again, I’m just relating the Halacha as it is stated in the Gemorah, Shulchan Aruch, etc. As you requested. I didn’t make the Halacha. Speak to Hashem with any complaints, please. I don’t take kvittelech.
ujm > You don’t like the Halacha.
It is good to start with Sh’A for a historical review, but for issues relevant to people and modernity, you need to quote someone from 20th century, if not 21st
AAQ: Do we need a 20th/21st century rabbi to quote whether and/or when we can wear shatnes or is a Psak Halacha from 200+ years ago that Klal Yisroel accepted as authoritative still good today without a new for a modern re-evaluation of shatnes? If Halacha on shatnes is still good unchanged, why does the Halacha on marriage need a 20th/21st century reform?
I got engaged at 20, and got married at 21. After the wedding, my husband beat me, because I was past the deadline.
Needless to say, we have a great marriage because he always does what Hashem wants.Mseren, you like beatings?
Only Beis Din is permitted to administer corporal punishment.
ujm > Do we need a 20th/21st century rabbi to quote whether and/or when we can wear shatnes
I mentioned a number of times that mitzvos bein adam l’havero change with times and culture. Kal v’homer bein adam l’ishto!
if you want a shatnes example – there are halakhos how to deal with a person who walks in the street and will be embarassed if he would have to take off shatnes clothes right there. I wonder whether this will be different if you are in Tehran or in a beach community?
The maharaha writes that for learning Torah, one is allowed to push off getting married until 24, and that was the minhag of the Litvishe yeshivos in Europe.
Let’s say someone is 20, but has no job, no ability to sit and learn, and has the middos of a sailor. Is he really ready to get married? If someone cannot marry at the “perek”, the normal time, then he is an oness. If someone does not have the ability, whether in terma of maturity, emotional stability, financial ability, or any number of considerations, then he is simply an oness.
It would take a gadol beyisroel to say that “we’re all onsim” or something to that effect, but I happen to know several choshuve rabbonim whose children got married very young because they were working, and the aforementioned maharsha didn’t apply to them.
Gadolhadora…. chazal do set deadlines, they’re not arbitrary. They’re meant to apply when there are no extenuating circumstances; meaning if someone is ready at 20, they should not push it off at all – they’re simply not allowed to according to halacha. If someone would be ready at 19, they would be allowed to push it off… I don’t see how you can take gemaros and call them arbitrary. The poskim discuss them as any other halacha, and like anything else, a rov must be asked. There’s a lot between dismissing the gemara and saying that the age of the gemara is always applicable no matter what…
Should poor people never marry if they grew up poor and remained poor until age 45 and beyond? Lacking financial stability was never a heter to delay marriage.
On the same vein, being poor is not a heter to eat non-kosher if kosher food costs a lot more.
I recall reading direct quotes from Telshe Rosh Yeshiva in 1970s saying that most marital problems in his community are due to bochurim marrying too young. Not sure what his place/time numbers were.
Ujm:
May I acquaint you with this Gemara. Sotah 44A.
תנו רבנן אשר בנה אשר נטע אשר ארש לימדה תורה דרך ארץ שיבנה אדם בית ויטע כרם ואחר כך ישא אשה
There are prerequisites to marriage. It is said of Rav Aharon Kotler, who initiated and promoted the concept of kollel in America, that was asked how he could violate this direction of Chazal. He reportedly responded that this was a horo’as sho’oh. That reported dialogue was about skipping the prerequisite steps in order to transplant Torah in America after the Holocaust. That was in the 1940’s.
To extrapolate that readiness for marriage is the intent of Chazal is a given. Do you force a boy or girl into marriage because their time on the clock has run out? Or should they wait if otherwise not ready?
How do you know that the Derech Eretz of first building a house – which is never mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch – overrides the mitzvah d’oraissa of getting married before twenty? The Chofetz Chaim wrote that those who delay marriage due to lack of money are following their Yetzer Harah.
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