Setting up a MO girl with a serious Lakewood bochur = good idea or not?

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  • #1691699

    Mrs Joseph – “I challenge you to name one or two of the allegedly “many great bnei Torah (and even gedolim) of previous generations had wives that did not cover their hair.””

    Here is a recent one: “The Rav” – Rabbi JB Soloveitchik’s wife.

    But before you have a melt down, let me educate you:

    It was COMMON that frum women did not cover their hair in previous generations.

    How dare I say that?

    Oh, it’s not me saying it.

    It is the Aruch HaShulchan (75:7)
    עתה בואו ונצווח על פרצות דורינו בעוונותינו הרבים שזה שנים רבות שנפרצו בנות ישראל בעון זה והולכות בגילוי הראש וכל מה שצעקו על זה הוא לא לעזר ולא להועיל ועתה פשתה המספחת שהנשואות הולכות בשערותן כמו הבתולות
    אוי לנו שעלתה בימינו כך

    #1691714

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: You’re twisting the facts. That only occurred the first year when he forgot to tell his new second wife that he doesn’t eat gebrokts and she already prepared the meal with gebrokts. It was an onus, one time and done to avoid embarrassing her

    #1691755

    The story printed in the official biography is that he continued to eat her entire life, gebrokts till after her petirah.

    #1691839

    Mrs Joseph – “I challenge you to name one or two of the allegedly “many great bnei Torah (and even gedolim) of previous generations had wives that did not cover their hair.

    Do a bit of homework and you will be astounded to discover some of the most well-lnown gedolim and poskim zal wives did not cover their hair (at least not till much later). It is documented (in pictures) and mesorah among those in the know.

    Besides that one known godol of last generation when asked, replies “yesh al mi lismoch”, the Aruch HaShulchan lamented that it was common in his time, too. The Ben Ish Chai comments on it too.

    Just do a bit of homework so there is no need to name names in public.

    #1691813

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    REb. I do not know about the gebrokts story…but Reb Yaakov’s personal family minhag was to eat gebrokts as his family does to this day. He had a personal because he once found himself in someone’s house and so as not to eat the pesach food and embarass the host he said he didn’t eat gebrokts and since Reb Yaakov was an ish emes he peronally accepted the chumra. The story with his second rebbetzin concerned Reb yaakovs minhag of not eating milchigs on erev shabbos and she made a milchidegah kiddush on the first day of shavuous which that year was erev shabbos and he realized he never told her about this chumra. He had some bochurim go with him to another room where he was mattir neder so he can partake of the milchigs. I have heard from a rov from Long Island that family members verified he reaccepted this chumra afterwards.

    #1691786

    takahmamash
    Participant

    As long as her parents have the required $100,000 check for the boy, there’s no problem.

    #1691782

    Mrs Joseph “I challenge you to name one or two of the allegedly “many great bnei Torah (and even gedolim) of previous generations had wives that did not cover their hair.”

    In reply to your challenge (and to discredit you), I named two well known giants of gedolim ztl (from both ends of the spectrum) – with sources, that their wives did not cover their hair (at least not till much later in their lives). I also cited a godel that when asked replied that “yesh al mi lismoch” and others…but I guess the Mods didn’t want it posted.

    If you do your homework, you will find it.

    #1691875

    Takah, $100K is a bargain. The going rate is $250K plus. The girl’s parents are willing to give “full support” but it isn’t really necessary because the girl makes a great salary as an actuary.

    #1691872

    Rav JB Soleveitchik and Rav Shach are undisputed gedolim and poskim.

    #1691876

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: You have not named any nor provided any sources to such allegations. Direct us, if you will, to where you’ve identified such.

    Your “yesh al mi lismoch” must be referring to Prof. Michael Broyde, whom I need not remind you what HaGaon HaRav Sholomo Miller said about him in response to that comment of his.

    #1691877

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Rebbitzen,
    I heard the same thing about wives of rabbonim not covering hair from Litvishe people years ago. Apparently this happened in Lithuania and environs, not in Hungary .
    You’ll have a hard time finding this info in contemporary Jewish publications, as they are very prone to revisionism and whitewashing history, especially bios, and especially photos.

    #1691880

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim lamented that breaches in tznius were common in his time, too. That doesn’t mean there’s any justification for such breaches. And when the Aruch Hashulchan and Ben Ish Chai lament that it was common that some didn’t cover their hair, they very much condemn that flagarant violation of Halacha. So your use of the Aruch Hashulchan is very much disingenuous as the A”H is saying the exact opposite of what you’re trying to claim. Namely, he specifically writes it is a terrible aveira to leave the hair uncovered.

    I am familiar with one Rov who there’s a picture of from about 80 years ago where his wife’s hair allegedly wasn’t covered. Even assuming that was the case, when he was the yungerman when that photo was taken was long before he because a big rabbi in his community. I don’t believe he was even a pulpit Rabbi yet at the time; He certainly wasn’t a godol then and his wife’s action then, assuming that’s what happened, aren’t by definition a demonstration of what is or isn’t permitted under Halacha.

    #1691878

    lacisr, this is the version of story as said by Rav Frand:
    On a regular basis, Rabbi Pessach Diskind, grandson of Reb Yaakov Kaminetsky, tells me stories, practices, and opinions from his grandfather, Reb Yaakov.

    One Shabbos morning when Rabbi Diskin was a guest of his grandfather, he noticed that after Kiddush, Reb Yaakov’s Rebbetzin served cake to Reb Yaakov and he made a borei minei mezonos. Afterwards, they went to wash for the meal.

    Rabbi Diskin knew that his grandfather was not a chossid. He was, in fact, a dyed-in-the-wool Litvak. Rabbi Diskin asked his grandfather from where he picked up the custom to have mezonos after Kiddush. Reb Yaakov explained the origin of this custom to his grandson. Rav Yaakov, who had lost his first wife, was now married to his “zivug sheni” (his second wife). Reb Yaakov’s second wife came from Chassidic background. Both her father and her first husband were from Chassidic backgrounds. She was accustomed to having mezonos with Shabbos morning Kiddush. If he would not have mezonos after Kiddush, she would feel something was lacking in the Kiddush.

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky was 70 years old when he married his second wife. That means that for 50 years he made Kiddush in the morning without mezonos.

    How many of us would change after doing something for fifty years, and for what? “Because with my wife, this is how Kiddush is made”.

    Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky changed. To Reb Yaakov, it was worth changing a 50-year-old practice for Shalom Bayis — for the feelings of his wife. This is an insightful lesson for all of us.

    #1691932

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As well as the OP knows or thinks they know the people, You never really know what they are really thinking. Does the Girl want to become more yeshivish or does the boy want to become more modern, you really dont know that. If there is something there compromises can be made.

    As far as the wife taking the husbands minhagim, Not all Minghagim are worth fighting over, I mean is it really worth fighting over the exact amount of a Kezayis (Ive seen arguments over this) . Many couples do make compromises on this as well especially if the husband is closer to the wife’s family

    #1691933

    Yaakov was punished for preventing a shidduch between his daughter Dina and Esov…I am sure they weren`t on the same page in hashkofos…

    #1691938

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Did somebody out-troll Joseph?

    Joseph, obviously he/she doesn’t actually think wearing skirts is comparable to refraining from gebrokts. It’s an obvious troll thread at this point. A satire on the kind of things we would expect MO people to say.

    #1691942

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rabbi JB Soloveitchik is not an undisputed godol and posek. If that’s your source you’ll need to stick to the modern crowd.

    #1691945

    Sometimes husbands adopt their wives minhagim. Period.

    #1691950

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“Maybe there were other factors besides differences in hashkafa.”

    There are always other factors. Actually I never met a couple that were exactly alike!
    The main thing in marriage – they both have to start on the same page. Two different Hashkofos at the beginning is Not a very good idea.

    #1691946

    Rabbi Norman Lamm – a rov, a ben Torah, a mechaber of seforim and Torah articles.

    #1691973

    wstntme111
    Participant

    There were numerous Gedolim who’s wives didn’t cover their hair. That much isn’t really up for debate, however context is crucial. The lived in very different times were Jewish girls weren’t educated like they are nowadays. There simply weren’t many options in regards to Shidduchim. It’s no wonder several Gedolei Yisrael from Europe got married much later in life- their simply didn’t exist a plethora of prospects looking for those types of guys back then. However, nowadays things have very clearly changed.

    I still, however, harbor sensitivities to people being too picky. Many “older” guys you find nowadays are completely transfixed by the prospect of marrying the “perfect” girl- a girl who doesn’t exist in reality. That’s definitely a problem and something which everyone in dating needs to do a serious cheshbon about. The OP’s question, however, is about dating someone who doesn’t exist within the same stratosphere as the bochur. Such a vast difference in Levush (pants vs black hat) is usually indicative of a completely different perspective about life and the role Judaism should play in it. Although a Shidduch is technically possible, its akin to setting up two people who don’t speak the same language; it could work, but you have to be a little nuts to suggest the shidduch

    #1691975

    wstntme111
    Participant

    @rebbetzin- “Is that not the same with those that use cholov akum – how many actually researched the issue (or even looked up Reb Moshe’s teshuva) before they decided that they can be maykil?”

    How many learned the halochos of eruv in a metropolitan and examined the eruv of their city before deciding that they can use this eruv?!

    Get real: we ALL rely on precedent!”

    Using Am Horatzos to excuse precedent is a silly thing to do. The assumption people among the right make is that the precedent set by their Rabbonim is one which abides by Halacha. The precedent held by the MO (and more particularly, the type of MO who wear pants, don’t cover hair, etc…) is used as an excuse not to keep Halacha. To conflate the two perspectives is disingenuous.

    (Additionally, the examples you gave aren’t really so much of precedent- when you rely on an Eiruv, your basically relying on those in charge of the Eiruv, i.e., that they know what they’re doing and they have who to hold by. Rav Moshe’s teshuva about cholov hacompanies [which is also dangerously close to the heter used in Eretz Yisrael by tnuva mehadrin under Rav Elyashiv’s shittah] is also not an example of one relying on precedent- rather one relying on a psak. They may not know the in’s and outs of each psak- yet they know it exists….)

    #1691977

    Joseph
    Participant

    The following is the text of a letter written by Rav Shlomo Miller, rosh kollel of Kollel Avreichim of Toronto, head of the Bais Horaah of Lakewood, regarding the issur of a married woman to go with her uncovered and the efforts of some to reinterperate the halacha:

    Behold I have seen the article written by an individual as if chas veshalom according the Tur and Shulchan Aruch there is no issur for (married) women to go out with uncovered hair, and the entire issur stems from the law of Das Yehudis [whereas the Gemara states explicitly the opposite] and in our times there is no law of Das Yehudis.

    And all the lengthy diatribe therein is nothingness and an evil spirit, and the lengthy article that he wrote on this matter is similar to the responsa written by “Acher,” that is Aharon Chariner, who the Chasam Sofer lashed out against, and all the words of the aforementioned “Acher” were the foundation to permit the reformers, as is well known. And so too can be compared the responsa of the aforementioned matir, and it is not the place here to be mefalpel in this matter.

    And with this I signed on 14 Teves 5771.

    HaRav Shlomo Eliyahu Miller

    #1692001

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re talking about the Dr. Lamm that called Bnei Torah “cavemen” and was condemned for it by the Gedolei HaTorah such as HaRav Elya Svei zt”l.

    #1692012

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The main thing in marriage – they both have to start on the same page. Two different Hashkofos at the beginning is Not a very good idea.

    I know quite a few “Mixed Marriages” between Sephardim and Ashkenazim and its actually quite common in Israel and its not so rare in the US either (Would be more common if there were more Sephardim), Seems to work fine for them.

    #1692013

    I was talking about Rav Shach too.

    #1692032

    I am not defending the MO women that might wear pants or not cover their hair.

    I am not defending the Yeshivish crowd that might use a NYC eruv or use cholov akum or eat gebrokts.

    I am not condoning or condemning anyone. That’s not the discussion (and it got dragged off topic).

    My point is: Do these chumros/kulos/observances prevent a shiddusch between one that does and one that doesn’t?

    If so, where do we draw the line and say: These difference are not “fatal” to the shidduch, but these are?

    (Surely if one davens from a sfard siddur and the other uses an Ashkenaz siddur – the shidduch should not be nixed!)

    #1692023

    wasntme – following “precedent”, I cited the chazal: pook chazi my ama dbar, go see what others are doing. That is why the halacha is that we make a brocha shehakol on water (and not Borei Nefoshos). Seeing what other Yidden are doing and following their precedent is accepted in Yiddishkeit.

    #1692022

    wstntme111
    Participant

    Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik did not believe it was muttar. To equate his shittos with Rabbi Lamm’s is committing a fallacy. Although his wife didn’t cover her hair, there are numerous anecdotes from his talmidim which suggest that although he disagreed with it, he didn’t see it as grounds for divorce. It has to be realized that it was a different time back then and the type of woman looking for a Ben Torah differed drastically from what we find nowadays

    #1692020

    aka pooka
    Participant

    Rebetzin
    I might agree with you in general that this is not something that should break a shiduch. Another thing to keep in mind is people develop and change especially with relationships and marriage. Its not just two statues that are put together in one house. A husband should be a guide for the wife if the husband is a talmid chachom on whatever level he is IE he learns, understands his mehalech from his learning and avodah, learned from his rebbeim. I don’t think that means that a husband forces her follow a specific set of rules especially nowadays. Husband and wife should be there for one another not for the presentation they make to others.

    That being said we unfortunately have other external factors to keep in mind. communities and schools have very rigid and sometimes senseless criteria of who they accept and who not. The school that the husband would want for his son in this case probably wouldn’t accept him because the mother doesn’t cover the hair. the school that would accept them probably wouldn’t have such a serious learning program. until the kids come it wouldn’t matter so much but afterwards it might complicate things a little bit. They didn’t meet yet and aren’t yet crazy about each other just happened to notice each other. They should take this into consideration.

    #1692054

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    There are a lot of differences in hashkofo that a couple can get used to or work around. The problem is that most people are in denial of the damage some of those disparities do to the Chinuch of their children.

    #1692062

    Joseph
    Participant

    In prewar Warsaw there were wives who R”L were at the movies Friday night while their husband was home making Kiddush.

    According to Mr. Rebbetzin this would suggest that a shidduch between a Yeshiva bochor with a girl who goes to the movies on Shabbos is a good shidduch to redt.

    The bottom line is that the shidduch in the OP is no different than the idea of a shidduch between a Brisker bochor and a girl who is a member of and prays in a Conservative/Masorti synagogue.

    #1692082

    In the early 60’s-70’s, many Rabbis of Conservative shuls (especially in smaller out of town cities) were frum yeshiva learners that were unsuccessful in getting a paying rabbonus (the frum shuls did not pay). Their daughters were “a member of and prays in a Conservative/Masorti synagogue.”

    #1692087

    Joseph
    Participant

    So we can take it that Mr. Rebbetzin would redt shidduchim between Brisker bochorim and girls that go to the movies Friday night.

    #1692086

    Exactly which issur is there for a girl to go to the movies on shabbos?

    Walks over with non-jewish friend who pays…

    I am not condoning it! I am saying, is such a girl totally possul for a shidduch with a Lakewood boy ? I am not talking about a Bais Yaakov girl that rebelled and is OTD – I am talking about a girl that was brought up MO and such activities are On The Derech!

    Does it make a difference if the boy is a serious learner and ben Torah from Lakewood or is Brisk so much higher madraiga that it creates a different response (or what about Telz or Mir or Chabad)?

    #1692096

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Are you nuts? Going to movies on Friday night is “on the derech” for MO?
    You really are a troll

    #1692161

    wstntme111
    Participant

    I was privileged to grow up in a MO right household and veered towards Yewshiva in my teenage years. When Shidduchim came up, I was pushed by my family to date more “MO” girls who, while being of very fine character, didn’t share the same goals as I did. It didn’t require intense introspection to uncover that the true difference lied in a vastly different perspective.

    It would almost be akin to having an ardently vocal Trump supporter attempt to date an ANTIFA member. I don’t mean in the level of extremity of these types of people, rather in their vastly different views and the consistent nature in which those views would arise and cause conflict with one another in daily life.

    #1692180

    That was Josephès hypothetical example. This girl does not go to movies on shabbat, but does join in with singing sholom aleichem and sometimes wears pants. She enjoyed the divrei torah that the Lakewood bochur shared at the table and was able to add insight. They would make a wonderful couple…perfectin every way…except for their backgrounds…

    #1692183

    briskboyz
    Participant

    I am THE serious lakewood bachur, a bachur in my dorm told me about this coffeechat. it mamish might be a good idea. I will definitely chap a shmooze with my rebbi and see what my rebbi will paskan.

    #1692194

    themasmidofbrisk
    Participant

    as long as she makes a good kugel and chulunt i think its shaych am i right @ravdovidhockerz

    #1692198

    The shchuna
    Participant

    Since when was the lubavitcher REBBES rebbetzen modern?
    She was extremely modest and hardly went out for the reason

    #1692159

    wstntme111
    Participant

    Rebbitzen- “Seeing what other Yidden are doing and following their precedent is accepted in Yiddishkeit.”

    Again, the example you give is misleading. All that Gemara stands to prove is that when originally establishing the Halacha and approached with a valid Halachik argument, the dictation of correct Halacha followed a social tide. Once Halacha is Kavuah, that is not the case.

    This is also the rebuttal to Louis Ginzburg’s argument for Conservative Judaism based on the Gemara in Avodah Zarah in regards to shemen Akum. Once a Halacha is established, precedent to veer away from said halacha is insignificant.

    That being said, it should seem obvious that a Shidduch between these two different worlds is a bad idea. Their unique perspectives about Halacha are, at least on an idealistic level, rooted in their perspective about the world. Now, obviously two individuals who decide to get married should be different and compliment one another. However, all with the understanding that they have a common ground in regards to perspective about the world and where their lives are headed.

    #1692223

    Health
    Participant

    ZD -“I know quite a few “Mixed Marriages” between Sephardim and Ashkenazim”

    What’s the comparison to MO with Yeshivsh?
    Nowadays the Sephadim learn in Litvishe Yeshivos.

    #1692226

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    She was extremely modest and hardly went out for the reason

    The wives of Gedolei Yisroel were the personification of modesty and had spent their days serving the klal. It is not one or the other. Even Sara imeinu, who stayed in her tent, served the klal and had a following of women, how is that not modest?

    #1692227

    Health
    Participant

    themasmidofbrisk -“as long as she makes a good kugel and chulunt i think its shaych am i right @ravdovidhockerz

    Don’t Be So Desperate. You have No idea about marriage. It’s a lot of work. That’s why you need couples on the same Hashkofah Page!

    #1692240

    jdf007
    Participant

    People change. I cannot say any better than the people on here already have from the neighborhood. But, I hope they have a long life ahead, and tastes change, and people get more comfortable doing certain things as time goes on. I don’t know the list, but I don’t imagine pants to always be a life-long thing that never gets changed. Even if slowly.

    #1692247

    Health – you might not know that sefardim follow the Bais Yossef (generally more maikel). Ashkenazim follow the Ramo (generally more machmir – with minor exceptions). So when they marry, the Askenazi girl is now introduced to things that were prohibited in her Father’s house. In comparison, a MO with a Lakewood boy also have the gap between MO kulos and Yeshivish chumros. But we build bridges and overcome differences.

    #1692232

    UPDATE: First “pegisha” went exceptionally well. They focussed on what they have in common rather than there differences. This MIGHT just work…and if it doesn’t, it might have nothing to do with their backgrounds.

    #1692238

    Joel89
    Participant

    today’s day and age there are a lot of mixed marriages that work well. I know personally a few of them. But that’s only when one of the spouses changed after they got married. So its different when you have to make a decision to work on your marriage and not to divorce because of differences than to go into a marriage when one of them are not on the same page with the other on such a fundamental issue.

    #1692262

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But you don’t really choose whom to marry, only whom not to marry.

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