March 7, 2019 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1691183
I know both young people personally. They both have wonderful personalities and fantastic middos. And they are so much alike (interests, hobbies, talents etc). They happen to have observed each other my shabbos table and each expressed admiration for the other…one small problem:
He is a serious Lakewwod boy with long-term kollel ahead of him while she is a MO girl brought up with every kulah in halacha (including wearing pants) that will never adopt the chumros of yeshivish standards.
Can a shidduch be successful if they are on the ‘same page’ in everything except their hashkofas? In other words, can they be happily married and build a beautiful while each does their own religious lifestyle without interfering in the other’s religious observances?
(I have heard of certain great rabbonim and gedolim who had wives that were not on their level of religious observance – but still managed just fine).March 7, 2019 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1691260lowerourtuition11210Participant
???????? She wears pants and he is in Lakewood?
“Can a shidduch be successful if they are on the ‘same page’ in everything except their hashkofas? ” IMHO rarely.March 7, 2019 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1691284
The OPs proposed shidduch isn’t much different than a Lakewood guy with a wife wearing short skirts.March 7, 2019 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1691289
She doesn’t ONLY wear pants. She can wear skirts and dresses when around his chaverim or chevra. Aside from their upbringing, they are perfect for each other,March 7, 2019 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1691295
I have set up couples where the girl used cholov akum and the boy was makpid on cholov yisroel. They are happily married. She still eats her Hershy’s chocolate and he doesn’t. It’s not that big of a deal.March 7, 2019 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1691317
A wife is required to change to her husband’s minhagim and shittos, upon marriage.March 7, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1691330
Why don’t you ask them individually flat out?
There have been successful marriages of couples with variant haskofos. Hershey chocolate above is a good example.
Even rabbonim and their rebbetzins don’t always match up exactly the same. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe’s wife was reportedly a more modern woman.March 7, 2019 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1691324
Not required to change if that was their agreement. No one is trying to change anyone. There is so much commonality that this differential is minimal in the big picture of a happy marriage and building a home.March 7, 2019 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1691344
Just because the boy is considered a long term lerner, does not always mean he is a serious bachur and just because she was brought up modern ortho does not mean she isnt a serious girl.
Case in point the bmg rosh yeshiva went to a modern day school with classmates who werent shomer shabbos.March 7, 2019 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1691345TheMirParticipant
A marraige is foremost Eizer Kenegdo – for the wife to support her husbands Avodas haShem (not financialy – thats his problem). Generally a woman who wears pants is not gonna encourage her husband to learn more and grow in his avodas HaShem unless she is also growing and learning contiuously and aims to reach perfection. So its not only about the homes they come from its about their perspective. If they are both heading for the same goal then a marraige can help both to acheive that. But if the end games are miles apart there will always be friction. Not worth the risk.March 7, 2019 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1691350Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“Can a shidduch be successful if they are on the ‘same page’ in everything except their hashkofas?”
What’s left to agree on? Physical attraction?
I don’t know why I’m indulging as I’m 98% sure this is trolling.March 7, 2019 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1691366
I made a shidduch that the wife would never use the eiruv on shabbos (she holds it is mamash chillul shabbos), but the husband does. She jokingly calls him her shabbos goy. They have a great marriage.
(I wonder if she would drink non-mevushal wine that her husband poured – since in her view he is a mechallel shabbos b’farhesya??).March 7, 2019 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1691382
The main thing a guy needs to consider in a potential shidduch, as Chazal tell us, is the girl’s brothers. Because his children will turn out like her brothers.March 7, 2019 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1691349GadolhadorahParticipant
Sounds like a great catch for him as long as they move to a “neutral” place like Rockaways or Staten Island and if she is willing to “adopt” to the Lakewood model when she visits the in-laws. Yes, there have been some great “mixed-marriages” in history but they require a lot of effort on the part of both parties and they must really have a lot of love and respect for one another.March 7, 2019 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1691347
Plenty quote on quote yeshivish girls whos husbands are in kollel dress mire pervocatively then many mo girl’s.March 7, 2019 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1691401
Joe, as long as one brother is ok, that’s good enough – psak of Chazon Ish (Sefer Ma’aseh Ish, chelek 3, pg 237). But in any event, Yitzchok did not reject the shidduch on account of Rivka’s bother Lovon! Therefore, it is only one factor of many.March 7, 2019 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1691409
Joe, the Gemara says (Baba Basra 110a): ‘hanosay isha tzorich she’yivdok b’achiha’, there is no machlokes about it, yet it is not brought down as a halacha – not in Rambam or Tur or Shulchan Oruch?!
Answers in SHU”T Maharam Brisk s. 130 – the gemorah is not saying a halacha but an eitza tova (shidduch advice).
Therefore, even though the Avos kept the entire Torah including all halochos, this was never a halacha, and the Avos didn’t need to follow it.March 7, 2019 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1691419LucyParticipant
Still trying to fig out what yeshiva Reb Gol. is inMarch 7, 2019 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1691421HealthParticipant
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname -“Can a shidduch be successful if they are on the ‘same page’ in everything except their hashkofas?”
Not in a Million Years! I’m divorced & my Ex-wife and me weren’t that far apart.March 7, 2019 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1691422
Mr. Rebbetzin, I’m not sure what you’re האַקן אַ טשײַניק. There’s no Halacha, either, that you cannot marry a glutton who dresses like a shlemazal and spends 11 hours a day reading Harry Potter.
Why in the world would you reject an “eitza tova” from Chazal??March 7, 2019 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1691435☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I’m divorced & my Ex-wife and me weren’t that far apart.
Maybe there were other factors besides differences in hashkafa.March 8, 2019 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1691449frumnotyeshivishParticipant
“Everything except hashkafos.” Interesting phraseology. Quite specific, in fact.
For a marriage to succeed, I think, you need to have two people who care about each other enough to make sacrifices for each other, and who are committed to making the relationship work. Could it work? Of course. Is there inherent harm in introducing a shidduch idea to two adults who will then make their own decisions? Of course not.
I guess what I’m struggling with is what my hashkafa is on the scope of the word hashkafa as it pertains to stereotyping individuals and regarding playing semantic games relative to a non-issue.March 8, 2019 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1691451funnyboneParticipant
Rebbetzin: how Yeshivish is he if he “observed her…and expressed admiration”? Not.March 8, 2019 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1691453MistykinsParticipant
Reb Golden- it is not our place to decide they shouldn’t be together. They have already met at your table and admired each other. Perhaps they can find a compromise that works for them. Maybe she will be inspired to become more traditional to support him. There’s a chance he will study harder in kollel so that he can find a job to support her afterwards. Or… maybe they will each follow their own path with a few simple agreements (no pants around his family), and focus on everything else that makes them a beautiful couple. Love makes people want to sacrifice to keep their spouse happy
Joseph- I have heard that a woman marries someone with her father’s personality, or a man marries his mother’s personality, but I can promise you that my children’s personalities are nothing like any of their aunts and uncles, and my nephews/ nieces are not much like me.March 8, 2019 7:30 am at 7:30 am #1691479LucyParticipant
Funnybone- exactly what i was thinkingMarch 8, 2019 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1691483
Scary, but my short term memory is giving me fits lately.
Only a month ago I read a tshuva from a rav who was asked by a prospective mechutan about the girl’s brother who was a “character”, and mentioned the Chazal, fearing the shidduch because of it. I can’t remember the rav’s name now.
Basically, he said that people for years lived in close proximity for almost their entire lives , as was in time of Chazal, so they learned from each other. Nowadays, he said , a brother might not be living in the same area, the family itself may residing in a larger communitu , so that there isn’t only one way of thinking and/or learning bad middos from another necessarily. So the brother fear doesn’t apply anymore. I’d add myself, that people these days are more engrossed with outside influences due to easier communication withe outside world, and almost certainty of family members living out of area and don’t spend their days mingling with each other as much as was years ago.
The rav told them to go for it if all else looks good.March 8, 2019 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1691492Shopping613 🌠Participant
The issue with clashing hashkafos is how will they raise kids?
If one parent allows them to wear pants and another doesn’t?
Like how does that work. I’m pretty sure you can have different opinions but you need to be looking for the same way of life and end goals.March 8, 2019 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1691506
Mistykins: I only said about the wife’s brothers. Nothing about aunts and nieces. If you disagree with that, you need to argue with Chazal not with me.March 8, 2019 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1691508wstntme111Participant
There’s quite a discernible difference between relatively small hashkafik differences and hashkafik differences in regards to Halacha. For example, a boy wanting to sit and learn can technically be compatible with a girl who wants her husband to work. That’s something which has the couple has the ability to work around. When the Hashkafik difference is how to approach Halcha, which is probably rooted in a very different outlook on life, the story is completely different. For example, a woman covering her hair is a Halacha. The majority of MO who refuse to do it don’t do so out of a Halachic argument (da’as yehudis v.s. da’as ) rather out of precedent- they know there were some very distinguishable people who’s wives didn’t cover their hair. To that end, resulting from a certain Hashkafik outlook on Halacha, that may be enough to justify not covering one’s hair, but to one with a different outlook that’s an indefensible position. The rest of your example’s are presumably where there are a variety of poskim who are meikil- the conversation is whether or not to be mor emachmir on oneself or not. But in the larger picture of MO and mkore particularly the type of MO who would wear pants aren’t merely parting ways in matters which are solely Hashkafik in nature; they allow those Hashkafos to influence decisions which someone else would view as an actual breach of HalachaMarch 8, 2019 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1691529
Rebbetzin: how Yeshivish is he if he “observed her…and expressed admiration”? Not
Also a boy who is considered a long time learner these days is no longer a gauge.
In many cases its done because of social pressures and or a copout way of saying “i dont want to work , so suport me !”March 8, 2019 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1691533
Shopping – “If one parent allows them to wear pants and another doesn’t?
Like how does that work. ”
Precedent from Moshe Rabbeinu: He pre-agreed with Yisro – One chld for Hashem and one child for avoda zara. They can agree too that sll girls go to MO schools and all boys go to chareidi yeshivot.March 8, 2019 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1691537
Ref. my earlier post. I’m researching the sefer in which I saw it, but I do recall it wasn’t stamm a local rabbi.. It was a rav, an gadol.March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691545Uncle BenParticipant
Rebbetzin Goldpick…; So you are MO yourself, apparently.March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691548
Zion, I think Rav Chaim K shlita answered something to that effect when okayed shidduch that a brother was otd.
Mrs. Joseph, many “eitza tova” of chazal are no longer applicable, example the home remedies for ailments, many (but not all) “sakana” advice…what is applicable to us is brought in halacha. Checking the brothers is NOT brought in halacha.
Chazal say ‘check her brothers’. Rav Chaim K shlita was asked, what does one ‘check’ the brothers for? He answered check if they are normal. When further pressed, what does ‘normal’ mean? he answered, that they learn Torah.March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691550LOTR92Participant
yes Neville, you are a troll.March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691553
funnybone: “Rebbetzin: how Yeshivish is he if he “observed her…and expressed admiration”? Not”
A bochur does not need to sit at the table wearing blinders and his nose deep in a sefer. Get real! He observed her middos – helping out at the table, taking care of my children, joining in the conversation with wisdom and aidelkeit…She heard his divrei Torah, that he wasn’t self-absorbed, humor and worldly knowledge…
Is that ‘unacceptable’?!
I can just picture ‘your’ comical illustration of a yeshivish Lakewood bochur sitting at a shabbos table that includes a girl at shidduchim age:
Stuff his ears with cotton balls, blinders on his eyes to block peripheral vision, a full size Vilna shas gemara within 6 inches of his face while slurping the chicken soup…
is that normal or comical?!March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691555funnyboneParticipant
Huh, Rebbetzin! Moshe Rabbeinu said one child for Avodah Zora!?March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691556rationalParticipant
It’s not complicated.
Set them up, let them go out, and let them decide for themselves.
That’s much better than a few dozen anonymous know-it-alls controlling their lives via the internetMarch 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691558
Marriage does not require a match that is a carbon copy of each other.
In fact, some say ‘opposites attract’.
Husband makpid on cholov yisroel, wife isn’t.
Is that a recipe for disaster?! You may ask, how will they raise the kids?! Answer: They will work it out.
Wife doesn’t hold of eiruv, husband does.
Is that a recipe for disaster?! You may ask, how will they raise the kids?! Answer: They will work it out.
He has unfiltered internet smartphone, she has kosher phone.
Are those so different than this case:
Husband wears black hat, wife wears pants?March 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691559
Msybe with enough influence from her, she would convince him to wear a skirt and sholom al yisroel. Aa it is the toles are reversed anywsy by kollel guys where the wife is the breadwinner. Same with pants / skirtMarch 8, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1691561
wasnt me, – “The majority of MO who refuse to do it don’t do so out of a Halachic argument rather out of precedent- they know there were some very distinguishable people whose wives didn’t cover their hair. ”
Is that not the same with those that use cholov akum – how many actually researched the issue (or even looked up Reb Moshe’s teshuva) before they decided that they can be maykil?
How many learned the halochos of eruv in a metropolitan and examined the eruv of their city before deciding that they can use this eruv?!
Get real: we ALL rely on precedent!
You eat in an eatery without checking if the hechsher is up to date and confirming with kashrus org because you see other frum people buying their pizza there.
In halacha this is an accepted rule: check what other people are doing!March 8, 2019 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1691600
Eiruvin 14b – one that drinks water to satisfy thirst makes a brocha of shehakol. R’ Tarfon says he makes borei nefoshos. Rav Chanon asked Abaya, what is the halachs? He answered, puk chazi my ama dbar – go see what people are doing.
Seeing what others do ESTABLISHES the halacha. Guess what? That is exactly why today we make a bracha of shehakol when we drink water!
In fact, there is even a principle that minhag of yidden (what ‘everyone’ is doing) is actually MEVATEL halacha.March 8, 2019 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #1691568MistykinsParticipant
Joseph- we can take aunts and nieces out of the topic. My children are nothing like my brother in laws.
I think what you mean is that in an ideal family, you want to marry someone that is like your mother/ sister (or the wife’s father/ brothers) because you want to emulate the family values. Other times, you look at the flaws in your family and do everything you can to marry someone that is different, to spare your children the issues that you grew up with.
When we first married, we discussed what we didn’t care for in our parents relationships, or what we didn’t like about how we were raised, and agreed to change some things in our children. Our parents had both made some pretty big mistakes. And you know what? So have we. Some days, I strive for perfection in them. Some days, I say “if you can be a better man than your father, I will be happy.” There’s a certain pride in knowing your son has achieved more than you.
And sometimes, you need to find someone with different hashkafos to give you a new perspective.March 8, 2019 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1691570apushatayidParticipant
“Also a boy who is considered a long time learner these days is no longer a gauge.”
“long term learner”.
Its a meaningless phrase, like “tops in the yeshiva” or outgoing, but not too outgoing”.March 8, 2019 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1691636binnyParticipant
a serious lakewood bachur who would even consider marrying someone who wears pants, even if he originated from that world, isnt serious. a women wearing pants is totally unacceptable for a ben torah.March 8, 2019 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1691642
May be she will compromise by putting a skirt over her pants. Compromise works wonders in marriageMarch 8, 2019 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1691643
Yes, basically we do not pasken straight out of a gemorrah, nir necessarily like a posek of years ago, but more like one in our generation- our contemporary. Not to mention, chassidim , yeshivish, Sefardim will not follow a uniform set of poskim necessarily. Years ago, an older Satmar chassid told my father about a certain ruling that the Satmar rebbe ordered. The rebbe was asked how he can go contrary to the Shulchan Aruch, which in effect he did. He responded , ” Yes, but we also have a mesorah.” The implication is clear.March 8, 2019 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1691656
binny “a women wearing pants is totally unacceptable for a ben torah.”
There are many homes of bnei Torah that the wife wears the pants in the house – figuratively.
Many great bnei Torah (and even gedolim) of previous generations had wives that did not cover their hair. It did not stop their learning or their sholom bayis.
I ask you, is it acceptable for a ben Torah to have a wife that eats cholov akum, uses an eiruv that Reb Moshe says is worthless, has an unfiltered phone (which gedolim in EY made into the worst possible aveira) and speaks loshon hara regularly ?! Yet, many do – and life goes on quite nicely.
I think you are reacting to the “appearances”…but in today’s world, “image” is secondary.March 8, 2019 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1691673
Mr. Rebbetzin: I challenge you to name one or two of the allegedly “many great bnei Torah (and even gedolim) of previous generations had wives that did not cover their hair.”
It simply doesn’t exist. You are stretching, by a long long shot, the definition of great Bnei Torah and Gedolim.
And you’d have a hard time finding anywhere where the husband and wife differ about an eiruv. If the husband’s shitta is that the eiruv is invalid, unkosher and Chillul Shabbos, the wife is prohibited from utilizing it. Period.March 8, 2019 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1691685
I wrote of the reverse that is common, when the wife does not hold of the eruv (because of upbringing) while the husband freely uses the eruv (and she jokingly calls him her ‘shabbos goy’)..
However, the common situation that you deny is when the husband is ‘machmir al atzmo’ not to be somech on the eruv but does not impose this chumra on his wife and children.
Rav Yaakov ztzl personally held not to eat gebrokts but his wife didn’t have that minhag, Gues who followed who’s minhag>? As long as he was amrried to her, Rav Yaakov WOULD eat gebrokts!
I think that shlogs your ‘period’.
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