Shadchanim

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  • #589156

    salsa
    Member

    I was wondering whether or not it’s typical for shadchanim not to get back to you. Is it typical to leave them messages and not return calls or to meet you and never get back to you? If I already emailed/called him/her to follow up after not hearing from him/her, is it pushy to call again? should i feel like a nudge and nebach case????

    #632956

    Curious
    Member

    Salsa – keep calling. Many of them are super busy.

    should i feel like a nudge and nebach case???? Never! You are none of the above and don’t ever let yourself feel that way!

    On behalf of asdfghjkl – Welcome to the CR!

    #632957

    oomis
    Participant

    Salsa, do not ever (and I cannot emphasize this more strongly) EVER feel like you are a nebach case??? How can you think this of yourself? Because some shadchan is a) too busy b) too disorganized, or c) too rude to get back to you, don’t see it as a failing in yourself. The shadchan may be working on something for you or someone else, which is taking his/her attention off you for the moment It is possible they simply have had no chance to go over your information and see if they know someone suitable. Personally, I see no problem with respectfully leaving a non-whiney message for them. I would e-mail first, and say something along the lines of wanting to say thank you for their time and effort, that you can appreciate how very busy they must be, and you are wondering what would be the best time to speak with them. If that doesn’t work, move on to another shadchan. There is such a thing as a shadchan who really is not right for you, even if he/she was right for someone else. Believe me, I know. Hatzlacha rabba to you.

    #632958

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    thanx curious for doin it for me!!!

    salsa: welcome to the coffee room!!!

    #632960

    beacon
    Participant

    salsa, first of all, hi and welcome. If you can clarify something for me- are you referring to when they are already involved in something or before?

    #632961

    I say go to the next shadchan!

    #632963

    mchemtob
    Member

    I myself had the experience of working for a very chashuvah shadchan in boro park. she was at the point where she had just gone off paper and into a computer program. what a mess. 6 phone lines all ringing at the same time you don’t know which one to pick up first…the faxe machine kept runing out of paper bc it couldnt keep up with the pages pple were faxing in, phone calls from ALL around the world. I was amazed….but what I did notice is the pple that were consistant definitely got heard and red to but it takes a thick skin and pereseverence. keep calling. I remember this one man who called every tuesday morning at 10:20am about prospects for his daughter, sometimes he got, i’m too busy, I’ll call you back and she never did…needless to say he kept calling until his daughters mazal opened up. I guess you could say he pushed the door opened for her…but please don’t give up keep calling, and don’t for one second think that it is you. it’s crazy what goes on especially if the shadchan is known for getting results, that’s why you are calling them and not someone else. keep calling… Look at it like this if you were at work and your boss told you if you close the deal you get a million dollars…you would do whatever it takes to make the deal. this is your future, so do what it takes to make the deal. (w/ derech eretz of course) I wish you Hatzlacha and Mazal and Beezrat Hashem your next cr post will be to invite us to your virtual engagement party!

    #632964

    oomis
    Participant

    What bothers me more about shadchanim such as salsa described (and btw, I meant to say welcome, salsa) is when they act as though they are SO committed to helping you (and since most of them are being paid, they should remind themselves that this is not just a favor they are doing for someone, and even WERE, they should still act with kindness and thoughtfulness) and then let you flap in the wind without another contact of ANY kind, even just to say,” haven’t had a chance to follow through yet.”In my experience, too many people consider themselves shadchanim, when they have no business (pun definitely intended) being involved in the process. I know a shadchan who actually SPOILED the shidduch by interfering too much with the young couple who just needed more time to assess their feelings. Because the boy was being pushed, he called it off after a dozen dates.

    #632965

    salsa
    Member

    beacon- i contacted about 4 already and only heard from one of them, who doesnt even deal with what i’m looking for. the others simply ignored/failed to return calls :.(

    #632966

    RoshYeshivah
    Member

    Is this the official thread for the shiduchim CRISIS?

    #632967

    tal
    Member

    My way really works. (Well, really my rav’s way.)

    Get in touch with a ‘smaller one.’ If they like you, they will quickly befriend you and talk to shadchanim for you because, for the most part, they know each other. After, the shadchanim call you. From personal experience, it works. Oh, keep in touch with a rav throughout just to make sure everything is according to Torah, and you don’t fall prey to the reputation this world has.

    #632968

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    RoshYeshivah: seems like it is!!!

    #632969

    anonymisss
    Participant

    RY: what crisis?

    ~a~

    #632974

    shkoyach
    Member

    oh my favorite topic… 😉

    Honestly, you cant totally blame the shadchunim b/c they deal with so many ppl and have lives besides being shadchunim. That is why either you, your parent, or someone who is there looking out for your shidduchim, should pleasantly but assertively be on the shadchun’s case. Call Up and remind them to work on things. update them. ASk them is new things came up or if they have new ppl for you to meet. I am a BIG talker cuz don’t ask… but l’maase this is what they say works.

    Also, if you make yourself sound like a nebuch, they will think you are one, if you clearly show them you are not, they will clearly not think you are (except a few exceptions… and boo on them)

    #632975

    beacon
    Participant

    salsa- I hear you.. I asked that because of a situation I had with the shadchan not calling back after dates, but thats a whole other story.

    #632976

    1) I think some shadchanim are afraid to call pple back with neg. replies (once the shidduch already started), so they assume if they dont call back at all then the person will get the message.

    2) I remeber a relative of mine had an older daughter and there was one shadchan that had very good ideas so she tried calling her numberous times and leaving multiple messages. After a while of doing this and being ignored, she called back but blocked her caller ID – of course the shadchan answered. When this woman explained who she was the shadchan said “the reason i didnt call u back is bec i didnt have whom to suggest for ur daughter. If I will think of something I will call u”.

    #632977

    poshut
    Member

    Its time the US changes the shiduch system to the one that operates in Israel and Europe. Couples should go out for the same amount of dates but rather over a 1-2 week period rather than 4-6 weeks. This should speed things up and maybe alleviate some of the problems.

    Obviously if couples need more time then they should be allowed to go out for as long as they want – but this should be the exception rather than the rule. This method is tried and tested and it appears to work.

    All shadchonim should be pushing for this.

    #632978

    Chatty
    Member

    Poshut, it’s not so poshut. People have busy schedules (work, college etc). I’m not saying that dating is not a priority, it is, but it is hard to have a date almost every single day of the week. Considering that you want the dating period to be 1-2 weeks, and the normal amount of dates that people usually go out are 7-8 dates. According to your calculations, they would have to have a date at least 4x’s a week. Furthermore, sometimes it takes a day or even two days for the Shadchan to get back to you whether it’s a yes or no. However, I do agree that from one date to another (especially from a first to second date) it should be in close proximity with each other, so that it should not be like a whole new process again, of re-getting to know each other.

    #632980

    like chatty said, datin 7 – 8 times in 1 – 2 weeks is a bit hard esp for girls who are in touro which takes up 2 nights a week and even more so if the boy also is in touro which takes up the other two week nights. obviously, dating should be a top priority and is a valid excuse to skip school but there is only a certain amount that a student can miss without being penalized or feeling the impact of being absent on their grades. but i guess at the right time we’ll have it all figured out! hatzlacha to all and may we share in many simchot together in this wonderful cyber circle of friends!

    #632982

    I got engaged in one week. For that one week nothing else but my dating mattered.

    A PLEASURE!

    #632983

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    Mrs. Beautiful: wow, after 1 week you felt you really knew him???!!! kinda unheard of!!!

    #632985

    poshut
    Member

    We HAVE TO speed up the system, 2 weeks should be the goal – there is almost NO REASON why it should take 2 days for a shadchan to get back to one of the parties.

    I believe that the shiduch crisis is less acute in Israel and Europe than it is in the US and this is may be ONE of the reasons.

    (Don’t forget let us all keep davening that everyone finds their bashert bekorov.)

    #632986

    asdfghjkl, For starters, we did a lot of information beforehand. Also, we knew the family very well. We met a couple of times, and since this was not the first boy I met (far from it, having met oter boys more times than i met my husband), when I met my husband even for the first time, it was very refreshing. We spoke for hours each time, and then how many times do you need? I didnt feel that needed even one more date. We couldve met more times, but whatever for?

    It’s a matter of taking dating seriously or meeting for fun. In my circles we take dating very very seriously. Starting from extensive information about Middos etc. through serious talks….

    #632987

    tzippi
    Member

    Pashut, Rav Braun of Ohr Sameach Monsey has an excellent series on shidduchim. He recommends NOT going out so often, you need time to digest. This isn’t just for BT’s. Americans are NOT Europeans. When it comes to shidduchim, and enabling our kids to build a bayis ne’eman, we have to work with our contemporary realities, with guidance of chachamim on a personal level.

    #632988

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    I won’t go into the different ways ppl get engaged, what ppl should look away from and what’s negotiable. However, across the board, you should be concentrating on priorities like middos, personality, frumkeit etc. If it shtims (and there’s some chemistry), then mazel tov to you!

    #632989

    poshut
    Member

    tzippi – you are correct but he doesn’t say spread those ‘few’ dates over 6 weeks.

    What contemporary reality dictates that you need 6 weeks when you could do it in 2?

    Of course there are exceptions and many people may need 8 weeks or longer – but as a rule of thumb even Americans easily be able to get to the same position after 2 weeks.

    There is everything to gain and nothing to lose.

    #632990

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Poshut, I disagree with the two week deadline. There should be NO deadlines. People should take things as fast or as slow as they need to.

    My stepsister dated her husband for 8 days, had an intense dating experience and got married 3 months later. She is happily married for 14 years now with 5 kids. I once asked her if she regretted dating so short and she said that looking back, she would have liked to date for longer, but is so happy in her life that she is happy things worked out as they did.

    My sister was dating someone for about 2 months. He was ready to committ, but she told him she needed more time. His RY told him if she isn’t ready by now, she will never be and told him to break up with her. He dated some other people, found himself missing my sister more and more, and when she called him back two months later to see if he wanted to try again, he was ecstatic. He didn’t pressure her at all that time, and after another 2 months of dating, they got engaged. Some people just need to process.

    I met my husband at 19 while in college. We started dating 9 months after we met. We dated for 1.5 years before getting engaged and got married 9 months later. To me, that was kind of quick. I don’t like to make any big decisions quickly. I can’t even committ to a couch for my living room (so its empty). I knew I loved my husband while we were dating, but I also know how serious marriage is and I wanted to make sure that everything could work out. We talked about a lot of things over the course of our relationship and there is no way I would have felt comfortable discussing certain things in the first FEW WEEKS of dating. Add to the fact that we were both still in college, we had to wait no matter what. Neither of us come from rich families who can support us.

    Point being, everyone has to take things at their own pace and do what is right for them.

    #632991

    poshut
    Member

    SJSinNYC – I suggest you read what I have written – take as long as you need – even if it is 2 years, but the suggested time should be 2 weeks. Most cases are not that complicated and can be and should be completed in 2 weeks – this method works in Europe and Israel why can’t it work in the US?

    But let me reiterate -if you need longer spend longer – but the normal period for say 70% of people should be 2 weeks.

    #632992

    “Point being, everyone has to take things at their own pace and do what is right for them.” SJS…thats true but 1.5 years is a loong time. are you from a more modern background? On the other hand 8 days is very short. dont we all need time to think bout e/t? but on the same hand, too much time isnt so good either.

    #632993

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    poshut, why pressure people into the two week time frame? If you implement it as “normal” then people might feel pressured to decide within that regular time frame to make sure they are “normal.” My brother in law’s RY pressured him to break up with my sister after two months – can you imagine the pressure after 2 weeks? Either you would have many less marriages, or many more failed attempts because people were pressured to adhere to the norm. I honestly don’t think time is the problem with shidduchim.

    KeepinEntertained, yes I am from a MO background and I realize 1.5 years is a long time for many people. My point in showing those three examples was to illustrate three happily married couples (I am the shortest married at 4.5 years) who needed different spans of time. There is no magic number and there should be no pressure to decide within a time frame. Each person needs to decide that time frame on their own.

    #632994

    For anyone who is a baal teshuva or whose parents are, dealing with shadchanim and figuring out what to expect is even more baffling. Calling a shadchan day after day may seem like normal hishtadlus to people who understand how things work, but for people coming from outside the frum commumnity, it seems just plain rude and pushy. Making detailed inquiries into the other parties’ lives is an even stranger proposition.

    Anyone who finds him/herself in this situation might want to contact a new shadchan network created especially for BTs and children of BTs. It’s called “The Rebbetzins” and it’s part of the Oorah kiruv organization. It’s not just a shadchan service, because the shadchanim actually play a lot of roles. They get to know all the candidates personally and they do the research that parents would normally do. They also act as dating mentors. It’s a nationwide network with boys and girls who are all serious about dating in a frum way, but lack the support system FFB people would normally have. If anyone is interested in signing up for The Rebbetzins, they can call 1-877-REBBETZINS.

    #632995

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    Mrs. Beautiful: i’m really happy for you that it went that fast, it’s just in my circles 3 weeks is wow fast!!!

    areivimzehlazeh: very true until married ya never know, know the person!!! to each his/her own!!!

    #632996

    Just because it went fast by me, I understand and dont expect it to be it like this for e/o, I am not preaching that this is the way to do it, and I dont think 3-4 weeks is too long. However, I can’t imagine why pple would need to go on more than 10 dates or meet someone over a span of a year. You are not meant to become best friends the guy u r dating. Dont forget that the guy u r dating is halachicly a “srange” man and Halachos of Yichud apply as do other halachos. Dont fool yourself into it, ask yourself are all of my dates chaneled to marriage, am I dating for fun or am I just not in the mood of commiting myself etc… The more seriously u take the dating the shorter the process should take u…

    #632997

    poshut
    Member

    SJSinNYC – I think a 2 week time frame should be advocated for the normal shiduch. Most people after a couple of dates will either reject or get serious enough to contemplate that after 2-3 more dates they may be able to get engaged. The scenario is the same whether you have a date every 2-3 days or whether you meet every 1-2 weeks. What I am saying is that this method shoud be encouraged both by parents and shadchonim – OBVIOUSLY if one side feels they need the extra time they should not be pressured at all, they should be able to take as long as they need.

    Come on we need to get the systme moving – why should someone go out with 1 boy/girl over a 3months period when they could go out with 4-5, especially in busier periods such as bein hazemanim.

    Don’t forget – in every shiduch you eventually have to take a small leap and put your trust in the one above – no one can be 100% CERTAIN that they will be happy for the rest of their life on day one.

    #632998

    heimesheyid
    Member

    Mrs. Beautiful, all this is easy to say when u meet the guy and as u put it he is “refreshing”. Sometimes dating is not as clear cut. You have ur hesitations, so u try again, and then u r not sure if u have enough reason to break off so u try yet again. I agree with the point that meetings should be taken very seriously and pple shouldnt be meeting unlimited amount of times…listen its not always so easy….

    #632999

    oomis
    Participant

    If anyone thinks that in 2 weeks’ time they know enough about someone to base a decision that will affect the rest of their lives, then more power to them. Some, such as Mrs. Beautiful, are very fortunate (and I am truly delighted for you, Mrs. B. you sound very happy, B”H). Most people, in my humble opinion, cannot possibly know someone is THE one in only two weeks, though they might have a pretty good idea that this is a shidduch that is worth pursuing more seriously by then. JMO

    #633000

    tal
    Member

    I think we all understand this theoretically and agree with many of the adults here. However, practically some things are not realistic.

    Some of us have class from 8:00 am until 5:00 or 7/8:00 pm followed by hours and hours of research and homework followed by exams followed by home responsibilities followed by responsibilities to our pears and community and don’t forget about work to pay for tuition. As great as these privlages are, they come with multiple responsibilities.

    Realistically, I’m lucky if once a week works during crunch times. Yes, we must marry and have a family but we need to responsibly support them as well.

    We’d love to be completly finished and sure in one week, but, most of us simply can’t. Most of us don’t even know how we will be able to plan a wedding while completing school set up a home and miss time for the wedding itself and sheva brachot. Physically, the answer is obvious. We can’t do what we can’t do. So, please, stop pressuring your daughters and sons to move faster as they have alot to think about aside from marrige and children. They have enough stress don’t hurt them. Too many of my friends come crying to me that they can’t make up their mind and their parents and shadchan are demanding definitive answers. Please, don’t be the one to hurt your child that instead of turning to you they turn to a friend with such a delicate matter.

    #633002

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    You are not meant to become best friends the guy u r dating. Dont forget that the guy u r dating is halachicly a “srange” man and Halachos of Yichud apply as do other halachos. Dont fool yourself into it, ask yourself are all of my dates chaneled to marriage, am I dating for fun or am I just not in the mood of commiting myself etc… The more seriously u take the dating the shorter the process should take u…

    Mrs. Beautiful, just because you didn’t need the person you were dating to be really close with you, doesnt make it the only way. I needed my husband (or rather at that time my boyfriend) to be my best friend. I couldn’t marry someone that wasn’t- how could I marry someone but be closer to someone else? Dating him for that long didn’t mean that we transgressed any halacha – it just meant that we needed to be more careful. And yes, the longer we dated the harder it was. We also were restricted to when we could get married because we were both in college and neither of our families could support us.

    Oomis, as usual I agree with you 🙂

    Poshut, if two weeks in “encouraged” it will turn into pressure. There is no reason to put any “normal” time limit – people who are ready quickly will get engaged quickly, those who arent, won’t.

    As for dating more people- maybe there people should date multiple people at a time until deciding one is really worth pursuing.

    Tal, what I advise you tell your friends is that they should tell the shadchan that they need more dates to decide and if the guy has a problem with that, then she will move on to a different guy. Pressuring people is so terrible.

    #633003

    Joseph
    Participant

    SJS – Where you ***Deleted*** Inappropriate question. YW Moderator-72

    #633004

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I met my husband in College. Neither of us had planned to start dating that young (we met at 19 and started dating at 20, got engaged at 21 and married at 22. It worked out very well for us, but for others it may have been a disaster.

    #633005

    Joseph
    Participant

    SJS, without repeating the wording, I question if you were able to maintain full halachic standards while you had a bf.

    (Hopefully this will pass muster.)

    #633006

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, it was hard but yes. I know plenty who werent able to though.

    It helped that most of the time we hung out at our college, where there were plenty of people around.

    #633007

    wow joseph, a bit personal…

    but SJS, b”h you sound happy and thats what counts now but like we said it doesnt work like that for all.

    tal, sounds like a hard situation, your friend must be told not to succumb to pressure. at this point in life all girls and boys are encouraged to be selffish and only think what is good for them. so even if the parents or shaddchan are pressuring them they do NOT have to give a definite answer. a lifelong commitment should be thought out thoroughly and not made hastely in response to pressure.

    on the note of pressure, do ppl here agree that pressure is more severe in brooklyn rather than in places such as lakewood or monsey or 5 towns? my friends have been saying this but i cant understand why it would be such.

    #633008

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    but SJS, b”h you sound happy and thats what counts now but like we said it doesnt work like that for all.

    There is no one formula that works for all and makes everyone happy. I am just sharing my experience and hopefully people will realize that they have to decide on that path. Dating for 2 weeks or dating for years – do what is right for YOU, not the shadchan, your parents, your neighbors, your Rabbi…you have to live in the marriage and they do not.

    #633009

    tal
    Member

    I am guessing that the probability of those that responded stating girls should stand up for themselves are male. Although you are all correct, girls have a difficult time with this. An extreme example: Is anorexia more prevelant amongst the girls or boys. Yah, it’s crazy but girls succumb to pressure easily.

    #633010

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Tal, I am a woman.

    However, I met my husband at 19 and never had to go through the process. I am also a lot more strong-minded than many other women though.

    Perhaps if more women stood up and said “Stop the pressure” the the shadchanim would understand that many times, people need a little bit more time.

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