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Bodek: I have not pointed any fingers (you can check my posts on that thread).
I believe in helping to solve a problem not assessing blame.
AZ: I was replying to Volvie and Tzippi’s question – I meant that comment a bit cynically, in case you didn’t notice.
i don’t either believe in blaming and pointing fingers, since it doesn’t accomplish anything…
But YOU can do something……..
AZ: “but you can do something”
can you give me some examples
i’ve already done everything on your list ++++
“can you give me some examples”
(Allow me, please, to respond on behalf of AZ…)
1. Only marry someone with no age gap.
2. Pay the shadchan for every date + generously upon completion.
Bodek: that’s NOT what I was referring to. I know the girls have done that and it doesn’t help (certainly not on a collective level).
Volvie: wrong and wrong
Let me know when you want the answer
My sincere apologies. I misread that line about the girls at fault, and would appreciate if the moderators delete my most recent post.
AZ, thank you for stressing that the girls are not at fault. I really mean it. I’m not the only one here who feels you are sincerely motivated and caring, even if we disagree on a lot and are pursuing other approaches also.
Tzippi:
That’s step one:
The girls need to realize they are NOT at fault. STOP blaming yourself/themselves
d
Rochelle:
I think you are wrong to limit it to just a boy a year or two younger.
Just like it is no big deal to marry a girl 4 or 5 years younger, we need to get to the point where it is no big deal (and it isn’t!) to marry a boy 4 or 5 years younger than the girl.
EDIT: Rochelle, why did you delete the text of your post above??
Thanks for the additional pointers… and lets say i’m doing those as well…
what shall i do?
When my brother got engaged one of my great aunts said “Emuna hub ich, uber patience?!?”
sorry volvie; I wanted to edit it but deleted it by mistake. I dont think its a big deal to marry someone 4-5 years younger.
I think it was rabbi shamshon raphael Hirsch that said in order for him to do his lifes work he needed to marry a girl that was older than him.
I don’t think it helps to say that the girls aren’t doing anything wrong, some of them certainly are and need help correcting those things. I’m not saying to be mean and look at older girls as if they’re all doing something wrong. I’m sure there are a lot of girls who do everything right and are still single, but there are lots who dump guys for stupid reasons, play with their cell phones on dates and are still holding on to ridiculous demands (e.g. the guy has to be over 5′ 10″, have a good job, and be willing to move to Brooklyn). I think too much is blamed on the guys and the age-gap.
Boredjewishguy do you think saying no to a date that talks on the cellphone all the time is wrong? I dont think so…
And I dont think girls say no to the height of the boy.
Just wondering which circle of the netherworld I’m going to for marrying a younger girl.
The Wolf
mmmm… maybe someone could help us here. I know of a 25 yr old Chassidish BOY that needs a shidduch.. Good boy. Anyone?
What ACTION can be taken.
Girls being open to date boys who are their age or younger is not the answer as that isn’t the source of the problem.
Bodek: How badly to you want the answer?
It starts with the girls realizing that they are NOT at fault. STOP blaming yourself/themselves.
This is a critical step one.
It has to be understood enmasse AD HASOIF
and YOU can help teach them
“I know of a 25 yr old Chassidish BOY that needs a shidduch.. Good boy. Anyone?”
AZ? Can you help Rochelle? Being deeply involved in the age gap issue, you surely know many agunahs for Rochelle’s boy.
“Girls being open to date boys who are their age or younger is not the answer as that isn’t the source of the problem.”
AZ: Why isn’t girls marrying boys younger than them an answer to the age gap issue?? THAT would certainly alleviate it!
Rochelle: Maybe I wasn’t clear, I meant that the girls are on their cell phones during the dates and therefore they get dumped. Also I was given a “shidduch resume” for a girl who was 5’6″ and it said in bold “No Guys Under 5’9″!” I think I’m a drop taller than that but it’s possible that my measurements are off by a half inch, who knows? Either way I was not interested in going out with her.
volvie: Girls Don’t control who they are redd to
Bodek and Volvie let me know when you want to know what is the ONE thing (ACTION) girls can do to alleviate the COMMUNAL situation
boredjewish: How many resumes did you get like that ? Some girls are just a little…and so are some boys…
My mil had a mother that drove her nuts to get her son engaged. She arranged a date for him, he did not stop chattering on his cell the entire time, and the parents wonder why he is still not engaged. My mil told this mother when your son will have a little more interest in the girls he is dating she will red him more shidduchim. This boy is 26 years old and has been dating for 4 yrs . Such a waste
“Girls Don’t control who they are redd to”
Why not? I know of girls who have asked to be redd to a particular guy.
Rochelle:
People focus on this boys did this/this girl did that and lose sight of the big picture that you see so CLEARLY
hundreds and hundreds of AGUNOS AND AKAROS
due to NO fault of their own
Rochelle, There were a few that had height requirements, a lot have had other less crazy requirements like must be willing to learn for three years or must have a college degree. My point is that there are plenty of people (boys and girls) who are not married b/c they are doing things wrong (not to mention the ridiculous things their parents do). There may be a significant problem with the age-gap, but it shouldn’t be used as an excuse for every girl that’s not married.
Az: personal question, why are you taking this subject soo much to heart?
boredjewishguy: Dont shoot me for this, but I think people should try to adapt more of a chassidish style to shidduchim, they dont have such a thing as a shidduch crisis..
I am not talking excuses I am talking reality. This girl that girl of course one can nit pick.
ON the communal there is NOTHING they can do to directly alleviate their situation as tehy are already doing EVERYTHING right and still have no HOPE
but they do have a secret power.
BUT it starts with them realizing that it is NOT their fault and they need to stop blaming themselves and stop listening to the FALSE HOPE being put out there.
Rochelle: I’m not in favor of the chassidish style, it’s great for them, not for me though.
Come on AZ, say what you really mean. Why bandy about with mild terms like AGUNOS and AKAROS? Just get it over with and call them MEISIM. After all, isn’t an akara comparable to a meis? You are doing them no service by understating their predicament.
Who wants to help the HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of MEISIM? End the shidduch crisis – marry a meis!
Squeak: your sense of humor is just what we need and especially Az needs here. You’re good!
Boredjewishguy: The results are good…
Squeak thanx for your sense of humor!
I need a better vocabulary. I don’t have the words to describe how unbelievably offended I am by the use of “aguna” to describe me. I know agunos. I would NEVER presume to include myself in their category. The gehinnom they are in is something I would never choose for myself. And to have AZ assign me to that gehinnom is beyond my capabilities to describe.
haifagirl: Dont be soo offended AZ is just saying the same things over and over again without pinpointing to anything, And besides, S/he is talking about the 100 year olds… EDITED
The fundamental difference between an older single and an agunah is that an older single could, if she were so inclined, marry the first halachically eligible man she comes across. An agunah, OTOH, cannot marry anyone (except, possibly to return to her “husband”). Equating the two is clearly wrong.
The Wolf
Squeak is right, haifagirl is right, and I am right. AZ, we have asked repeatedly for you to please stop using offensive terminology to describe unmarried people (offensive to them, as outlined by haifagirl, and offensive to the true agunos and akaros who don’t even have the potential to get married or have children, unlike free, single, unmarried men and women). The fact that you continue to call them by those terms, after specifically being told by haifagirl that it offends her, shows an incredible lack of sensitivity on your part, especially as you claim to be so concerned for their plight. You made your point, however inappropriately, that the unmarried go through a terrible nisayon. Please leave it at that and move on already.
“Just like it is no big deal to marry a girl 4 or 5 years younger, we need to get to the point where it is no big deal (and it isn’t!) to marry a boy 4 or 5 years younger than the girl.”
Since most boys do not mature emotionally at the same rate as girls do, if you are talking about a 22 year old boy and a 26-27 year old girl, I would not recommend that. It probably only works when both parties are already in the late twenties and early thirties or in their thirties and upward. A woman of 28 has little in common with a boy of 22, especially if he will want to learn for any amount of time after marriage. By the age of almost thirty, most women are looking for someone who already knows where he is, not someone who is first starting out. People change a great from early to late 20s. A boy who actually wants to marry a woman that much older, when he is very young, is often regarded as looking for a mommy, not an equal partner in life.
“Bodek and Volvie let me know when you want to know what is the ONE thing (ACTION) girls can do to alleviate the COMMUNAL situation “
“ON the communal there is NOTHING they can do to directly alleviate their situation as tehy are already doing EVERYTHING right and still have no HOPE
but they do have a secret power.”
REALLY? what secret powers do we posses?
Rochelle: The results are good for Chasidish people, I don’t think it would translate to good results for litvish people.
“REALLY? what secret powers do we posses? “
It’s a secret! You don’t want everyone to know you have x-ray vision, do you?
“Rochelle: The results are good for Chasidish people, I don’t think it would translate to good results for litvish people.”
Why? Are Litvish people made from a different kind of blood than Chasidish people?
Why? Are Litvish people made from a different kind of blood than Chasidish people?
No, but they might have a different cultural background, upbringing and expectations.
The Wolf
volvie: chassidish pple “date” when they are 17-18 and trust their parents fully to make the decisions for them. By the time the girl and boy meet, a wedding hall is practically booked, it is usually just a formality to see if the chemistry is right…
Litvish pple date at an older age when they can think and make decissions for themself…thus to make a litvish person do things the chaddish way would be a bit rediculous.
Perhaps AZ can better direct his energies towards adapting the Chasidish model? It works for them, and people are saying they don’t have the Litvish “shidduch crisis”.
Perhaps such an adaptation is less radical than changing the age gap, and more likely to actually get people to change. Or perhaps both approaches (age gap and Chasidish model) can be adapted simultaneously.
AZ?
I suggest that Volvie, AZ and Rachelle team up to start implementing the chassidishe model in more litvish circle.
I wish you all lots of luck 😉
“Why? Are Litvish people made from a different kind of blood than Chasidish people?”
Ditto to the wolf’s answer
Chassidish pple definitly have less expectations… ask rochelle about it – she seems to know alot about how they work.
For one, the girls do not expect their husbands to learn forever – 2-3 years is considered beautiful by many.
support is also not such an issue – since the husband goes to work sooner and can support the family.
degree’s are not in the picture (could be its more accepted now – i’m not sure)
looks are not a factor- since the chassidish boys haven’t been looking at girls since they are 13 (or earlier) so as long as a girl is not ugly – she has a big chance since she is not being compared to a rock star…
anyone have anything else to add?
feel free to add to my list 🙂
Bodek – Most of the differences you mentioned between the Chasidish and Litvish models demonstrate advantages of the Chasidish model. i.e. Them not looking at girls all their life; not comparing to rock stars; etc.
More reason for the Litvish oilem to consider many aspects of the Chasidish shidduch model.
Bodek: Sorry to disappoint you but chassidish people just have more normal expectations.
Regarding the support; 2-3 years is considered wonderful because it is NOT the womens job to support the family.
Bodek – does your father learn full time? And if he does, how are your sisters being supported? We cant live on ten generations of being supported coz that great-great-great-great granfather is buried already.
Does Having a degree guarantee you a job forever?
ooks are not a factor- since the chassidish boys haven’t been looking at girls since they are 13 (or earlier) so as long as a girl is not ugly – she has a big chance since she is not being compared to a rock star…
Color me skeptical… but I somehow doubt the biological urge that plagues males the world over is somehow magically missing in chassidic teens.
They may not admit it, but if you really believe that Chassidic boys don’t think (and at least sneak peeks at) girls, then I might have a bridge to sell you.
The Wolf
Volvie: I don’t think anyone’s saying that the Chasidish lifestyle isn’t better in some ways. If you want to change our entire society, good luck.
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