March 2, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #680952
Bodek: Hello! they are not upset that it didn’t work out. That’s the process and they keep on trying. The Shadchanim would like the families to appreciate the hours they spent trying their darndest to help YOU (your child) get married. Quality dates take a LOT of time/energy/investment on the shadchans part.
(Rochelle can give us some specifics)March 2, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #680953RochelleMember
Bodek; Sorry you misunderstood, but the fact is that if a shidduch doesn’t go through the parties are very rude to the shadchanim. As if its their fault. Not even a thank you, usually.March 2, 2010 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #680954
Bodek: “i am very greatful for your involvement in the “closetheagegap” issue – these days many shidduchim are being redd for me of boys my age.
five years ago this would have been unheard of…
MUCH MUCH APPRECIATED
but there is a still a very very LONG way to go to help/prevent from continuting ALL the Agunos and Akaros (yes older single girls are aguons and akaros-sorry for being so blunt)March 2, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #680955RochelleMember
My mil does shidduchim for Litvish, chassidish, heimish, sefardish Etc. She sayd chassidish shidduchim are by far the easiest. she never has to mediate between the two sides. shidduchim flow very smoothly, usually its either a yes or a no.March 2, 2010 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #680956
“but there is a still a very very LONG way to go to”
Yes, AZ – you didn’t pick an ez job! But who says working for the Klal is ever easy? I would imagine, that it is usually thankless… the real reward -Keren Kayemes is in Olam Habah… we can all be jealous of what your place in olam habah will look like!March 2, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #680957shev143Member
Do you think a family friend expects less than a professional shadchan?
By the way when I was dating I always made sure to say a thank you to the shadchan for thinking of me and trying to set me up. Whether it went to a 2nd date or a 6th date. I think most people do say a thank you, you only hear of the horror stories.March 2, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #680958
“If the shaddchan is helpful and spends a lot of time working for me, I would feel obligated to pay something even if the shidduch didn’t go through.”
Correct!! and yet less than 1% of our community practices that. This is what is so hurtful to shadchanim.
(if it was a easy cinch of a shidduch the shadchanim are generally more than happy with the numbers you mentioned above- of course)March 2, 2010 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #680960
In my honest opinion if you got to a 6th date I think the shadchan deserves more than a thank you.
And most barely even say thank you. They call the next day and say. So who do you have for me/my child now…March 2, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #680962
“but there is a still a very very LONG way to go to help/prevent from continuting ALL the Agunos and Akaros (yes older single girls are aguons and akaros-sorry for being so blunt) “
The terms agunos has very specific implications, and I think that in spite of someone using that term in relation to single women, it is inappropriate on this particular site to compare a girl or woman who is not yet married to one who wants more than anything in the world to be UNMARRIED. It is not equivalent terminology, not hlachically and not in reality. A single girl still has the potential to meet and then marry her zivug, but as long as a woman is an agunah she cannot even DATE, because she is an eishes ish. I question the viability of referring to both types of women by the same term.
As to akaros, that is a special gehenim in itself for the woman who prays with all her heart every day to become pregnant and ends up going to the mikvah month after month, with no pregnancy occurring. That, too, should not be compared to either being single or being an agunah. Each situation has its own set of tzaar attached and should be judged as such.March 2, 2010 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #680963boredjewishguyParticipant
AZ: From my experience, when you break up after a 6th date, especially if it wasn’t your choice, you’re not likely to be thinking clearly enough to properly thank a shaddchan. Also, it’s possible they blame the shaddchan for things not working out (sometimes it is their fault).March 2, 2010 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #680964
“these days many shidduchim are being redd for me of boys my age.”
Bodek – How does that fact impact you personally — as opposed to if you were redt more boys who were, lets say, 3 years older than you?March 2, 2010 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #680965
shev143: pls see rochelle comment “the fact is that if a shidduch doesn’t go through the parties are very rude to the shadchanim. As if its their fault. Not even a thank you, usually. “
you don’t know who I am so I’m not sure what you meant by “my place in olam habah”. I’m just a YWCR blogger on behalf of age gap…
When I say there is a long way to go. I don’t mean I have to work hard.
I mean YOU and EVERY single person in the community better get cracking if we want to save these Agunos and Akaros…. There is NO time to waste. It is URGENT and Desperate!March 2, 2010 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #680966
Do you not see a possibility by pushing the “age gap” issue so strongly, many girls will become desperate from hearing all about the age gap and start worrying that they personally will become a victim and a statistic – that they will c”v never get married because the’re aren’t enough boys – and as a result the girls will actually date and get married much younger than otherwise.
In effect, as a result of all the talk about the age gap it could have the opposite effect than you intend.March 2, 2010 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #680967
The R”Y advising NASI are well aware of what you mentioned and frankly there is no choice. The world is still sleeping. when the desperation of these girls and their families is focused outward instead of inward the necessary changes will happen.
Additionally the girls were trying to get married asap before NASI came around. They aren’t dumb they know how many of their relatives and friends are older and single with little hope. The awareness has broken the stigma and created new opportunities for the slightly older girls. See Bodek’s comment. What she meant was is that she is getting yesses she never would have gotten 5 years ago. Get with the program there aren’t to many 27 year old boys around (in yeshiva circles for sure.) In addition the awareness has started the ball rolling towards structural change that will solve the problem long term and short term.
Sad that these changes are looooong in coming and many girls will be lost because the changes that WILL happen will happen to late for them…March 2, 2010 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #680968
1. The term Agunos was the term Rav Ahraon Leib Shteinman used to describe their plight.
2. Aklaros is a accurate description of all the girls who will never get married and thus never get married.
When the community starts seeing the tragedy for what it is AGUNOS and AKAROS and not girls who are waiting a bit to get married.
THEN and ONLY then WIll we save these girls…March 2, 2010 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #680970
boredjewishguy: Bad excuse for not properly thanking the shadchan. thank them next week or the week after but don’t treat them like a rag to be used and discarded.March 2, 2010 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #680971WolfishMusingsParticipant
To bring this thread back to its original topic:
I only set up a single couple in my life. In short, a good friend of mine married a good friend of Eeees’s. We didn’t want to accept anything for shadchanus (as their happiness was reward in and of itself). Nonetheless, they insisted and gave me a gift certificate to a seforim shop (neither of them were particularly well off). Eeees also got something from her friend, but I don’t remember what.
Consider the fact that they got divorced a number of years later, I suppose I’m lucky that they haven’t come back and asked for a refund. 🙂
The WolfMarch 2, 2010 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #680972
Volvie: AZ answered your question for me-
“See Bodek’s comment. What she meant was is that she is getting yesses she never would have gotten 5 years ago. Get with the program there aren’t to many 27 year old boys around (in yeshiva circles for sure.) “March 2, 2010 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #680974
This thread was referring to people who are somewhat more active in shidducim and what is standard compensation. for them. see post from azoi.is from a few days ago..March 2, 2010 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #680975
“Sad that these changes are looooong in coming and many girls will be lost because the changes that WILL happen will happen to late for them…”
So you’ve already written off a certain number of Bas Yisroel as having no potential to ever get married – even with the age gap being addressed!?March 2, 2010 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #680976
Bodek – My question to you was how it benefits you on a personal level (as opposed to the klal) by dating boys your age versus boys 3 years older than you.March 2, 2010 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #680977WolfishMusingsParticipant
So you’ve already written off a certain number of Bas Yisroel as having no potential to ever get married – even with the age gap being addressed!?
Realistically speaking, there will *always* be a certain percentage of the population that does not marry.
The WolfMarch 2, 2010 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #680978
Volvie: In all likelihood-Correct.
It doesn’t seem like Hashem is going to create hundreds of 28-35 year old boys overnight. Best we can hope for is to eliminate the problem going forward and help some of the older girls (i’m not giving a specific age) via a trickle up effect).
I apologize if this truth is to hard to bear. but it IS the TRUTH
No wonder so many of these girls become disenchanted with frumkeit etc. Can anyone blame them?March 2, 2010 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #680979
wolf: correct and that number should be relatively equal for boys and girls. BUt it is NOT even close!March 3, 2010 12:52 am at 12:52 am #680980boredjewishguyParticipant
AZ: I wasn’t saying that they shouldn’t thank the shaddchan, just that you should understand it may take some time before they’re able to.March 3, 2010 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #680981
And I was just pointing out that those thank don’t come. Not soon not later, not EVER.March 3, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #680982
“Bodek – My question to you was how it benefits you on a personal level (as opposed to the klal) by dating boys your age versus boys 3 years older than you.”
I personally wouldn’t mind dating boys a year or so older than me -because of the maturity issue- if they were 3-5 years older i think they’d be jaded with dating and learning already.
But there are not that many boys 1-3 years older than me, left in my circles.
So dating boys in my age group is definitely the solution.
I am very greatful that this new trend of “closingtheagegap” is causing many boys to rethink their priorities and be willing to consider someone that is not 19 anymore…March 3, 2010 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #680983shev143Member
I actually never got set up through professional shadchanim. So, I am just wondering if I was supposed to give a good family friend $ for trying to set me up. When I did get married it was through someone I worked with who knew my husband’s dad. We got them silver and crystal and spent nicely on it. Although it was definitely not 3,000 worth.March 3, 2010 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #680984
From Bodek: “But there are not that many boys 1-3 years older than me, left in my circles.”
I just wish the world would wake up and smell the coffe.
Bodek, If you are game please contact the NASI project they are always looking for more people to help out.
shev143: I’m sure your father in laws friend was more than happy. As for your good family friend it probably depends how often and much time she spent. If it was like one time here’s a name – that’s one thing. If she really looked out for you and put in time and effort I would think everyone likes to be shown appreciation. She may be a saint but we have no permission to expect someone else to be a saint. HUMANS appreciate being appreciated.
Wouldn’t you??March 3, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #680985
Oomis, re agunos: I’ve said before that as Rav Shteinman shlita uses this term in the kol koreis I have no quarrel with anyone else using it (though I do think it’s a reshus, not chov, and I am not comfortable with it myself). Akaros is over the top.
Back to the original question, folks, get a clue. When we B”H had a successful shidduch in the family we asked around to find out what the going rate is (a layperson was the shadchan, who had no shingle and preassigned rates), and guess what, we found out pretty easily. I can’t believe that people don’t do the same. Why is the answer to this so elusive for so many?March 3, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #680986tomim tihyeMember
Tzippi, my parents and many others did the same and found out the going rate pretty easily too; therefore, I suspect the question was asked theoretically and not l’maiseh.
I’ve set up approx. 500 shidduchim, 3 of them successful, and this was by far my NICEST experience:
The couple went out 5 times, boy was ready to propose, girl wasn’t sure. She had to call her sem teacher in E”Y, couldn’t reach her for a week, then stalled for time getting back to me, and finally came back with a NO.
The BOY’S parents bought me a gorgeous crystal gift and wrote a beautiful poem about it being “crystal clear that there’s a Master Plan up there” to thank me for all the time and effort I expended on behalf of their son.
You bet I’d set him up again…in a jiffy. What middos tovos! (Ok, ok, for the crystal)March 3, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #680987haifagirlParticipant
I’m with oomis. I know, and have known, agunos. Those of us who are not yet married are not nearly in the same predicament. Calling us agunos is not fair to those who really are.March 3, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #680988
Rav Shteinman clearly had a reason for his choice to use the terms he has, perhaps in order to really drive home his feelings about the seriousness of the pain of the unmarried person. But IMO for us to repeat it, diminishes the chashivus of the pain experienced by TRUE agunos and akaros (and what about the men who are not married, should they likewise be referred to as agunim and akarim??? Of course not!). So whatever the rov said as his own personal hashkafa, I think AZ, that it makes more sense for you to not use that expression here. An halachic aguna is a woman who cannot re-marry (RE-marry, not marry to begin with), because she is either married to a man who has abandoned her, disappeared for other reasons (as in war casualties), or refuses to follow the halacha and give her a GET. An Akara is a woman who R”L is barren. Both situations are tragic in and of themselves, and deserve to be respected as such without mixing in another tragedy besides, that HAS the potential to be rectified much more quickly.March 3, 2010 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #680989
tomim tihye: It must have felt felt really really nice to be appreciated. isn’t it sad that 496 others didn’t do something similar.
EDITEDMarch 3, 2010 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #680990
I’ll feel better with the use of the word akara once Rav Shteinman or someome of his caliber does publicly.
“Stop with all the false hope.” I don’t get that. By avoiding using terms that could be hurtful, and that I don’t feel I have the shoulders for, I’m promoting false hope?
If a friend’s child gets engaged and there is an age gap of more than 24 months (in the wrong direction) is my rejoicing in this shidduch perpetuating false hope?March 3, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #680991
No Az, you’re wrong there. Things can stand on their own merits and do not need to be called by misnomers that obfuscate the issue. I don’t have to call an unmarried girl BARREN. Someone who is barren cannot have children. Someone who is an agunah can never get married.Period. Poor analogy, IMO. The unmarried girl (or boy, for that matter) may not YET be married, but nothing is biologically or halachically impeding them from doing so, unlike the aforementioned people.March 3, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #680992haifagirlParticipant
Okay, AZ, let’s try an experiment. I’ll give you the name and number of an agunah I know. You contact all the shadchanim you know, and see how many are willing to redt her to someone.
That should show you the difference between a true agunah and a not-yet-married.March 3, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #680993
Good point, haifagirl.March 3, 2010 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #680996
False hope is hurting these girls not helping them.
when we face up to the reality of the situation
That very very large numbers are not getting married (AGUNOS) and thus not having children (Akaros)
Then change will happen swiftly
FYI: see tosafos beginging second perek of kiddushin who uses Aguna to refer to girls not getting married due to societal issues.March 4, 2010 12:56 am at 12:56 am #680997
“FYI: see tosafos beginging second perek of kiddushin who uses Aguna to refer to girls not getting married due to societal issues.’
And exactly what ARE those societal issues? Please clarify.March 4, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #680999
Before I answer can I ask does it really matter??
It wasn’t halachic and it wasn’t biological and yet tosafos refers to them as agunos.March 4, 2010 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #681000
Even if it is halachically correct to refer to older single girls as Akaros and Agunos, doesn’t mean you must refer to them by that name. I wonder if it would go under the category of onaas devorim.
AZ: i have a question for you, when you see a single girl, is your first reaction – oh what a pity and sorry sight this agunah and akarah is? if it is, you can be sure that single girl will get your vibes of pity, and i’m not so sure she’ll appriciate it…
As an aside thing, It’s funny because i sometimes wonder, what’s worse? To be married without children, or not to be married at all?
Any opinion of this CR members?
I’m curious if this thought crossed the mind of any other single girls out there.March 4, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #681001
AZ, I don’t spend time in the beis medrash (thought I facillitate things so the men in my family can). How widespread was the use of the word aguna in this context before the kol koreih? Does Rav Shteinman shlit”a want that word to now become widespread in this context so as to highlight the plight of single girls? If yes, even if many people will find it onaas devarim?
Oh, and I don’t think I ever answered the original question: $750 from each side.March 4, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #681002feivelParticipant
Those words perhaps may be technically used as the way AZ does. However it is very confusing to us who are not so well versed in these intricacies of word usage, and think the words mean what they generally mean to the velt.
In addition, personally it makes me wonder if a person deliberately uses such important words and concepts in a way that is confusing and provocative, is there something else in his agenda which could possibly be somewhat misleading as well.
Those questions do not occur to me if an occasional Gadol occasionally uses such a word in an unusual way.March 4, 2010 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #681003
The LAST thing I want is to cause these girls
The second to last thing I want I want is to pity these girls.
What i WANT is to help these girls get MARRIED
These girls need to realize it is NOT their fault that they are single. They have done EVERYTHING they need to do.
They have davened
They have done chesed
They have gone to the proper schools
They have done segulos (whatever)
ENOUGH – they have done Enough,
and yet it doesn’t help
STOP with the FALSE hope.
They need to stop beating themselves up. Stop focusing inward, instead band together focus outward and DEMAND the necessary changes be made – then they will ALL get married.
These girls are the ONLY ones NOT at fault for causing the tragic problemMarch 4, 2010 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #681004
“These girls are the ONLY ones NOT at fault for causing the tragic problem”
Who is at fault? Why are they more at fault then them?March 4, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #681005
volvie: How badly do you want to know the answer?March 4, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #681006
AZ, could you clarify? Are they or are they not at fault?March 4, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #681007
Lets head back to the thread “blame the boys”March 4, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #681008
The girls are absolutely NOT NOT NOT I think I made that clear in the earlier post.
The communal tragedy we are facing was created despite the girls doing EVERTHING right!
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