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Almost every time someone discusses the issue of whether Charedim should join in the physical defense of Klal Yisroel, someone always responds by deflecting the argument to those who aren’t learning sufficiently. “Why haven’t you yet written a similar diatribe against the non-Chareidim who do not share the burden of supporting Klal Yisroel by being in Yeshiva learning Torah, thus providing us out greatest protection? There are so many more Israeli non-Chareidim who fail to share the burden of Limud Torah than there are Chareidim in Israel who are exempt from the army.” I’ve always had a problem with that line of thinking for the following reasons:
1. The primary reason this bothers me is that one has nothing to do with the other. Should people be learning more Torah? Of course! But that doesn’t address the issue of whether Charedim should be sharing the physical defense burden. It’s like if someone gives musar to you that you aren’t davening, and you retort that they aren’t giving tzedakah. Maybe that’s also a problem that needs to be addressed but they have nothing to do with each other. They are separate issues and should not be conflated and confused with each other.
That being said, there are also fundamental differences between the sharing of the defense burden and sharing of the Torah burden.
1. Soldiers do not want to be on the front lines risking their lives, health, family and parnassha. The fewer soldiers that exist, the more the existing soldiers have to sacrifice. Sharing the burden means that by spreading out the burden among more soldiers, each soldier needs to sacrifice less. There is less of a defense burden on each individual soldier. The same cannot be said of Torah… if there were more people learning, would the existing kollel yungerleit and yeshiva bochurim learn less? No! There would be just be more Torah! Which is a beautiful thing, but there’s no sharing the burden. No one’s “burden” of Talmud Torah would decrease just because there are more people doing it.
2. I am not referring to the Dati LeUmi soldiers here because many of them are doing both… learning for many years in hesder yeshivos and serving at our defense. But yes, the Chiloni soldiers aren’t sharing in the “burden” of Talmud Torah. The problem is, they don’t see a need for it. Because of their upbringing and background, they don’t appreciate and value Talmud Torah as much as a Dati or a Charedi. That’s indeed a problem, but telling them to learn when they don’t even have square one appreciation is a lost cause. In their opinion (which is obviously mistaken), if the Lomdei Torah disappeared, the security situation would remain exactly the same. But it is my understanding, the Charedim do appreciate the value of the army. If the army would disappear, there may be a minority of Charedim who think that we would miraculously be protected by the Clouds of Glory or that the Arab anti-semitism would just disppear and there would be no danger… but I would think many know that we would be in big trouble if that happened! The army is essential in the hishtadlus of the defense of our people. It is to those people that a plea to join the army, serve in the defense, and share in the burden has more of a likelihood of resonating… then a call for our Chiloni brothers to go to a yeshiva when they aren’t even at the basics of kiruv.
So please, whether you’re pro or anti Charedim joining the army, let’s deal with that issue as an individual issue. Don’t obfuscate the problem by bringing in unrelated problems. If you want our Chiloni soldiers to learn more Torah, then the Charedim in Kollel aren’t helping that either… maybe they should join the IDF as clergy to have a positive impact on those soldiers whose learning we crave so badly.
Simcha: This is clearly the point and argument that resonates with you, that you chose to respond to it in its own thread. The reason this is the one you respond to particularly, as such, is because of how strong this point is.
1. The primary reason this bothers me is
Because how overwhelmingly strong this point is (if we’re going to be honest.)
that one has nothing to do with the other.
It has everything to do with each other, insofar as this nonsensical argument goes that Yeshivaleit need to “share the burden” of joining the zionist army is concerned.
Should people be learning more Torah? Of course!
So, then, why are trying to pull people away from learning Torah, thereby causing less Torah to be learnt?!
But that doesn’t address the issue of whether Charedim should be sharing the physical defense burden.
Sure it does. As pointed out in my (non-attributed) quoted comments in your above OP, in in order for Bnei Yeshiva to so-called “share the burden” by becoming professional soldiers, by defition, they’ll need to leave the Yeshiva and learn much less Torah.
Limud Torah is, by far, the greatest protection that anyone can provide to Klal Yisroel. Reducing Limud Torah, reduces the protection of Klal Yisroel. Telling Bnei Torah to leave the Yeshiva and learn less so they can enlist in the army, means less Torah and less protection for Klal Yisroel.
Following the very simple logic?
1+1=2
The fact of the matter is that Klal Yisroel already has too little Torah being learnt. Such a tiny tiny percentage of Jews engage in Limud Torah. Of that tiny percentage, an even tinier percentage engage in Limud Torah full time. And they are the ones you want to drag away from the Gemora to shmad, er enlist, in your army? They are the ones MOST protecting Klal Yisroel. Take that away and *your* protection disappears.
And on top of all of the above, your army isn’t short soldiers. Your army isn’t losing battles and wars due to a shortage of enlisted servicement. Hamas and Hezbollah aren’t scoring successes due to Chareidim not being enlisted. What you are demanding with “sharing the burden” is that Charieidm enlist so that your daughter (who shouldn’t be in any army in the first place) and her male friend soldiers can take more furlough and breaks and go back to their jobs and employment, with the Charieidm who were dragged out of the Yeshivos and forcibly enlisted taking over so that the others can go home.
Are you so blind to understand the above logic results in losing protection, losing battles and wars (the shooting and bombing kind) because less Yidden are learning Torah, and those that are learning are learning less Torah?
And, absolutely yes, if more non-Charieidi Jews, including Chilonim and including others who don’t learn Torah at all or don’t learn full time or don’t learn enough, started learning more Torah, Klal Yisroel would be more protected than we are with, as it is, only those few fill time learners doing the burden if Limud Torah.
And then there would be *more* protection of Klal Yisroel by Hashem, less wars, less deaths and less injuries.
A win-win, if there ever was one.
Regarding “too little learned”, maybe let’s take a wider view:
there are ways more people sitting with seforim in this generation than in earlier ones – so many people are able not to work; books and tapes and teachers available; …
Are we better off than previous generation in middos and limud? I am not sure about middos, but one observant (in multiple ways) ger tzedek remarked – proportionally to number of learners, we should have 100 Rambams every 20 years, and if we do not see them, there is a problem somewhere.The author of the posting forgets that the whole idea of Zionism was to free Jews from the yoke of Torah and to wipe out learning Torah. To them, closing down the yeshivos and drafting the students is a “two fer” (they get more canon fodder and sharply undermine Torah scholarship and they hope to strike a fatal blow against Yiddishkeit). If all the Zionists wanted was to Jews being able to live in peace and devote themselves to Torah and Mitsvos, they had that option a century ago, and turned it down. Frumkeit is not really compatible with conquering the neighboring goyim and bending them to our will, which is the concept of “sovereignty” that it the core of the zionist dream. The Zionists have painted themselves into a corner through their own bigotry and pig-headedness (choice of animal is not a slip of speech).
akuperma > whole idea of Zionism was to free Jews from the yoke of Torah
Like all generals, this is fighting the last war … The militarily anti-religious generations (that included Zionists, but also Communists, Bundists, cultural Jews) etc are already gone. Issues of today are different. Same thing happens with opposition to secular studies – when R Kotler’s sister tried to lure the young Rav to study math in a university was a way to assimilate, but it does not mean that calculus is treif.
“the whole idea of Zionism was to free Jews from the yoke of Torah and to wipe out learning Torah.”
That is a lie. The earliest modern Zionists were religious and were motivated by the desire to fulfill the Commandment to resettle Eretz Yisrsel. Indeed Zionism has been central to Judaism for three thousand years. Unfortunately the secular leftists and a segment of the Charedi world have misled us.
I can’t parse vague articles about the asifa in Lakewood – they seems to say that it was dedicated to situation in Israel (aka EY) and hostages and also to opposing the draft. Articles sound a little vague. If you were there – what was the ikar and what was tofel – war in Israel or opposing the draft?
Or was it take the combined message – daven for the chayalim and do not join the tzahal?Your reply to me failed to address any of my substantive points.
But you did throw in the angle of non-learning Chareidim, which your OP didn’t inquire about and therefore wasn’t previously addressed.
There are many reasons even non-working Chareidim cannot and should not join the Zionist Army. Some of those reasons include such soldiers, when discharged, are no longer the same Ehrlich Yid he was when he went in. Another is the rampant pritzus in that army.
> Telling Bnei Torah to leave the Yeshiva and learn less so they can enlist in the army, means less Torah and less protection for Klal Yisroel.
This is mentioned in Maseches Megila. Malach threatens Yehoshua for neglecting karbonos during the day and learning Torah during the night (due to army service) – and then clarifies that a death might come for neglecting learning. Note that there is no suggestion to abandon the military campaign and not even learning during the day. So, as we have no karbonos right now, serving during the day and learning at night would be acceptable by Yehoshua’s standards.
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