- This topic has 107 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 12 months ago by SJSinNYC.
May 20, 2009 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #647320moish01Member
jewishfeminist, at a certain point you need to stop arguing and just do whatever you want. you’re not gonna win around here anyway, so why sweat?May 20, 2009 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #647321Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Go open a bais medrash packed with girls.
It will be a huge hit.
A female magid shiur, rosh yeshiva, mashgiach, tamlidos, cooks, machers, hockers, beeper people and everything else.
Let us know when your in business.
Since you are so into this, everyone here is soooo interested in hearing which sugya did you lig in today? The olam here is very interested in hearing all about it. You definitely shteig away all day and must be 1/2 way trough shas & poskim already.
Looking forward to hearing about today’s sugya. Don’t leave out any shver Reb Chaims, Birchas Shmuels, Ketzos’, Kovez Shiurims, Steiplers, Reb Reuveins and the rest of the yesodos nogea to farshteing a teifer sugya.
Waiting anxiously…..May 20, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #647322anonymisssParticipant
count me out!
~a~May 20, 2009 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #647324
niiiiiiiice! Key Master way to go!!!!
(is there such a thing as the Editor getting ousted?)
You can. Go to Avi Weiss & Co.
who dat? I sense there’s something really good to be had out of that comment- if only I knew who this Avi Weiss & Co. wasMay 20, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #647325
this is what happens when we live among the goyim, racchmana ltzon
we are swept away by their values and mix them in with Hashem’s values, without even realizing it
then we rationalize it with sources, like the missionaries do.
this is one of the prime reasons, according to Rabbi Miller, tzl, for the chok of Shaatnez.(as stated in Medresh Tanchuma, as i recall). Kayin brought linen, Hevel brought wool. a reminder that we should not mix the pure (intentions in this case) with the impure
one day our hearts will be purified from this filthMay 20, 2009 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #647326
nice and opinion-free feivel 😉
but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out who’s side you’re onMay 21, 2009 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #647329
With all due respect, R’ Shach, if this story is actually true, should have taken a leaf from Hillel hazakein, who when asked a deliberately STUPID question (as opposed to the legitimate one the girls were asking)by someone trying to make him angry, responded with the actual proper answer to the question, and did not diminish the person asking it.
Joseph, you have some pretty old-fashioned views about limud Torah, in the sense that you feel there is no long-term benefit to women knowing these things. Considering that from what I have inferred from previous posts of yours, you also feel that men should sit and learn all day and all night, it would seem prudent to have at least ONE parent at home who knows how to help her children with their limudei kodesh homework, would you not agree?
If Nechama Leibowitz, Z”L had only learned to bake cookies, I would never have developed the love of learning Chumash that I have today. Anyone who thinks that all women are capable or worthy of doing is baking cookies and darning sox, is hopelessly mired in the 18th century.May 21, 2009 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #647330AnonymousInactive
oomis, Rav Shach is buried in Bnei Brak. Feel free to head over there and give him some of your daas torah.May 21, 2009 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #647332
“With all due respect, R’ Shach”
you exhibited a great lack of respect to R’ ShachMay 21, 2009 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #647333
I see an eerie parallel between the answer of R’ Shach & R’ Elazar Ben Azariah in the Halacha and Mishna and Gemara Questions thread. Both are saying (somewhat) Bderech Tz’chok the same answer.
What it seems (L’aniyas Da’ati) what R’ Shach means by his answer:
Did these girls learn the PRACTICAL halachos? How about learning Basar V’chalav & Ta’aruvos, and how to use a single oven “Kosherly” and leaving the Pilpul!
That is a Gadol. Put on the spot by some “punk” (for lack of a better term) girls, he knows the Yerushalmi & gives a similar answer on the spot!May 21, 2009 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #647334GoldieLoxxMember
the feminist goes to the beis medrash “because it increases their yiras shamayim”
please dont give the other cr girls a bad name. cmon. one, going to a funeral or the cemetery can also increase your yiras shamayim. how often do you go there to increase your yiras shamayim???? two, i hear from a teacher of mine the following story. a lady went to a rabbi, she wanted to start wearing a tallis. the rabbi told her that this was a major leap and one cannot take such a big jump. he told her to wear a tallis privately for 2 weeks, and the tallis she puts on cannot have tzitzis. after the 2 weeks the lady tells the rabbi that this has been the best 2 weeks of prayers she has ever!! had. she feels so close to hashem!! the rabbo then told her that it was all in her head since the tallis didnt have tzitzis she was not doing any real mitzva.
i also want to say how wrong it is that they teach us so much about chessed in school and how important a mitzva it is for girls yet when someone does not do homework because they were busy doing shessed at home they are moked by the teacher and there grade goes down.May 21, 2009 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #647335jewishfeminist02Member
GoldieLoxx, learn to write and maybe I’ll take your points seriously (maybe I’ll even understand what you’re saying, too. Half of that was totally lost on me.)May 22, 2009 12:59 am at 12:59 am #647336anonowriterParticipant
Ok, arguing this out is not going to get anyone anyplace.
I think we can all agree that it IS ok for a women to study Torah, as long as it doesn’t detract from her other responsibilities. How much Torah one studies, and when and where is subject to community norms.
In my community, there are shiurim for women shavuos night as well as many other nights throughout the year. Some women choose to go, and some choose to stay home. It’s their prerogative.
And for those claiming that women should learn halacha first… well, most of them do!
Ask just about any kollel guy in Lakewood and he’ll tell you that his wife knows hilchos basar vichalav and hilchos shabbos much better than he does.May 22, 2009 1:57 am at 1:57 am #647337
I do not agree with some of the responses to my opinion, but I respect your right to express them. Just because I respect a Rov, does not mean I have to agree with something condescending that he says in response to a legitimate shailah, especially if I did not ask him a shailah. If every Rov asked a shailah by a girl were to answer as blatatly flippantly as did R’ Shach ZT”L, they would be far less likily to EVER ask that rov any shailahs in the future. If you do not “get” that, then let me assure you that you are remiss in your own thinking. I see women on a regular basis who are going to the mikvah well after the proper time that they may go, because they are intimidated from asking a shailah, because their rov gave them a flippant or annoyed response in the past. Telling a Yeshivah girl that she should be learning how to bake cookies, when in fact she wants to know the answer to a question that was SO clever that her seminary teacher could not answer it, is not the way to handle such a situation. I merely commented that Hillel who was asked truly irritating and stupid questions by a leitz, had the seichel, the sensitivity, and the menschlechkeit to actually answer the questions that were posed, without making the leitz feel stupid. I am sure that leitz had greater respect fro Hille after that encounter, whreas these seminary girls were made to feel really inconsequential. Even a Gadol Hador can make a judgment call that upon greater reflection and with the understanding of how his response might be negatively perceived, might think twice before issuing such a cavalier remark to ANYONE.
We all have bad days, we all make offhand remarks, sometimes (we think) in jest, but SOMEONE takes that remark to heart. Have you any idea how many frum kids are turned off by teachers who speak to them the same way as did R’ Shach? If you were a Yeshivah boy and asked what you thought was a good shailah, would you want to be shot down by your rov? And apparently the shailah was a good one, not a stupid question. And btw, maybe those girls were ALL good bakers. They just wanted a better understanding of a TANACH problem. “That is a Gadol. Put on the spot by some “punk” (for lack of a better term) girls, he knows the Yerushalmi & gives a similar answer on the spot! ” Gavra, without knowing exactly what transpired, neither you nor I can assume the Gadol was “put on the spot” by a punk or anyone else, and it hotzaas shem ra for you to refer to a seminary girl in that way. Their won teacher admitted not knowing the anser, and they had a right to expec that the rov whose aitzah they sought would treat their question with seriousness, and not as something irrelevant because they were GIRLS. What if boys would have asked him that same question?May 22, 2009 3:45 am at 3:45 am #647338chaverimMember
oomis: You are digging yourself a deeper grave with each new comment. Please go or have someone go on your behalf to Rav Shach kever to ask mechila on your behalf.May 22, 2009 4:07 am at 4:07 am #647339
i assure you Rav Schach was never “flippant” or “condescending”.
you who are less than an ant before such greatness smugly judge him.
the epitome of arrogance , and worse, totally blind foolishness.
shameful, and worse
a true Chillul HashemMay 22, 2009 4:31 am at 4:31 am #647340
I agree with Chaverim. I am astounded that such comments are allowed on YWN.May 22, 2009 7:38 am at 7:38 am #647341GoldieLoxxMember
oomis why do you think it was condisending??? you were not there!! why are u dan lkaf zcus to everyone other than to rav shach??May 22, 2009 9:33 am at 9:33 am #647342jewishfeminist02Member
Oomis brings up a rational point, written respectfully, and suddenly everyone is attacking her…yup, this reminds me of why I left the CR six months ago. I guess some things don’t change.May 22, 2009 10:40 am at 10:40 am #647343proud tattyMember
1-not surprisingly you miss the point. and as a result of your missed point you are going after R’ Shach. R’ Shach was telling the girls that this question should not be of importance to you. He was giving them hadracha, hashkafa and mussar. Your association of this question to HIllel is comical.
2-Then you take it to the next level saying women are going to be scared asking question (which their husbands should be the one asking) leading them to go to the mikva later (should I even attempt to ask how you know they are going well after their permitted time?).
3-Sad to hear that you feel that doing something for your husband is being made to feel inconsequential the way you say these seminary girls were made to feel.
4- If you know ANYTHING about R’ Shach you’d know that boys would get like responses to questions. If a bochur came asking about a question on the Taz he’d immediately get asked what he was doing learning Taz and he’d be told what he should be doing with his time.
5- nice of you to play the Off the Derech card onto Rav Shach. Real High Class Stuff
the point (oomis) is not written respectfully to Rav Shach and the point had nothing to do with the story, so yes, we are objecting.May 22, 2009 11:52 am at 11:52 am #647344aaaaParticipant
Feivel, you hit the nail on the head!May 22, 2009 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #647345
I believe a boy would have been treated in the same way i.e. something to the point of “go ask your rebbe” or “have your rebbe ask his rebbe”. If the boy (or girl:) had been asked to “talk in learning” then he may have the right to say something. P’shat in Ramban (or anything else) is not an eitzah, and you are wasting the Gadol’s time by asking him without permission.
Either way, your question is not only on R’ Shach, but also R’ Elazer Ben Azariyah from the Yerushalmi in Sotah.
A woman should have a “local” Rav to whom they are comfortable asking Shailos. That Rav may ask another Rav if he is unsure. If she is, in general, not comfortable asking a shaila, her husband should do it for her. Under no circumstances would anyone ask for an audience with a Gadol & then pull out a Kesem.
As such, I don’t see the comparison.
As far as the “Punk” comment, I would call a boy in Brisk the same thing if he dared ask R’ Shach a question in learning without the Rav initiating. This has nothing to do with the boy vs. girl issue, the method of response does.
jewishfeminist02: C”V I am attacking Oomis, I actually agree with her (as I posted above) regarding women learning Shavuos night. However, as with everything else, it must be the appropriate thing for the right reasons, not to be (C”V not you, just as an example) the next Gloria Steinem.May 22, 2009 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #647346
“Oomis brings up a rational point, written respectfully”
Dear “Jewish” feminist(a purely goyish word, and a goyish concept if ever there was one)
oomis was rebuked for her great disrespect to the beloved leader of Klal Yisroel, The Moshe Rabbainu of his time, not for her “point”. and “respectfully? in no way.
so you say things havent changed here, and you left because things were this way. i need say no more.May 22, 2009 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #647347squeakParticipant
feivel, thank you for your comment. It helped to pull me back down to the ground while I was thinking the other comments through.May 22, 2009 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #647348
“so you say things haven’t changed here, and you left because things were this way”
Baruch Hashem these specific things haven’t changed!
I apologize for the attack- but I’m not sorry for being uncivil in this postMay 22, 2009 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #647349
I am sorry you feel that way. Even gedolim make mistakes. That does not take away from their being gedolim. To think that they are incapable of making a bad choice in their reaction to a shailah, is elevating them to a level that only Hashem deserves. My opinion stands that IN THIS ONE SPECIFIC INSTANCE, I believe R’ Shach Z”TL answered a legitimate question with a singularly offhanded response, and the girls deserved better treatment than that, if only by virtue of the fact that the shailah was asked with the desire to know the emes. What he did, unfortunately diminished the chashivus in their own eyes, both of the shailah that they asked, and of asking shailahs of any rov, who might similarly make them feel stupid someday. If you truly do NOT understand that very serious point, then unfortunately I cannot make it any clearer. I am sorry that you seem to feel I have little respect for Gedolim. That is simply not true. I have little respect for ANYONE, Gadol, tzaddik, poshut person, am haaretz, Gaon, rasha, ANYONE AT ALL, who treats someone else’s sincere desire to know the answer to something, as a joke, and be patronizing and condescending to them. It does not befit a Gadol whom we regard as the arbiter and role model of menschlechkeit, to even HINT at acting in a way that can be interpreted as hurtful to someone, especially to impressionable young women. If your own daughter would be treated that way, I would hope you would be more compassionate for her sake.
I am moichel you for the attack, because I believe you are sincerely defending the honor of the Gadol. I knew a woman who had a shailah and the rov gave her a quick and short p’sak (assur) because he was annoyed with her. The next day he realized he had done a terrible thing and called the woman to apologize for being short-tempered with her and changed his p’sak (to the correct one). Now THAT is a sign of Gadlus. Agree or disagree, a rov has a greater achrayus than the rest of us to choose his words carefully when someone wants to learn. To tell a Seminary girl she basically only needs to learn how be a good cook, and her inquisitive mind doesn’t need to be nurtured, is wrong, no matter who implies it. How much more so when the person doing the insulting is a rov of such stature. I will not further engage in this particular line of discussion, as it is truly not productive to do so. I stated my feelings, you stated yours – neither of us will change our opinions. Infallibility of one’s religious leaders is a Christian, not Jewish concept.May 22, 2009 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #647350
GAW, I understand your point, but that is not how this issue was originally portrayed. The girls were learning Nach in Seminary, asked their teacher a question that he or she could not answer, so the qestion was posed to R’ Shach. His casual non-responsive response is already known. If a bochur asking a legitimate (not chutzpahdik) shailah that his own Rebbie could not answer, were to be answered in a way to make him feel atupid and insignificant, I would consider that to be as bad. If this is a common practice among rabbonim in general, then it is no wonder we have a crisis of kids going OTD. If they cannot rely on their rov,and especially a Gadol Hador, and person to whom they look up, to treat them as human beings with kovod habrios, then why on earth would they want to bother asking questions at all? And then how are they supposed to learn. Girls are only good for more than just baking cookies. And this comes from the lady who loves to cook and bake.May 22, 2009 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #647352
“Infallibility of one’s religious leaders is a Christian, not Jewish concept.”
NO ONE CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY.
we claimed that it is completely inappropriate for someone whos DasTorah is a speck on the wall in comparison, to sit in judgment and condemn the words of the leader of Klal Yirroel, YOUR leader, appointed by Hashem.
you, who are completely unable to even have a glimmer of what motivates his words; to condemn them, well i have already said what that denotes of your behavior, i do not wish to use such strong words again
i am done, you dont wish to see what you have done, you continue to rationalize your behavior. there will be no end here for you.May 23, 2009 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #647353JayMatt19Participant
Nicely said feivel.
A few bullet points for oomis:
You think this was hard for the girls to hear, Rav Shach knew who he was talking to, these were Israeli girls, they were not American
>>I believe R’ Shach Z”TL answered a legitimate question with a singularly offhanded response<<
You have no clue how the question was presented. R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky refused to answer questions when asked in a way that showed the asked just wanted to show how great a question they came up with. Maybe that is what the girls did here. You do not know. Maybe show some benefit of the doubt to Rav Shach?
>>Agree or disagree, a rov has a greater achrayus than the rest of us to choose his words carefully when someone wants to learn. To tell a Seminary girl she basically only needs to learn how be a good cook, and her inquisitive mind doesn’t need to be nurtured, is wrong, no matter who implies it.<<
Just because what he said does not fit into your type of Yiddishkeit does not mean he was wrong. He was nurturing young minds by giving them Hadracha and mussar.
>>Infallibility of one’s religious leaders is a Christian, not Jewish concept. <<
To call this a slippery slope would be an insult to the word slippery. Why is it that this card only gets played when someone has been seemingly beaten in an argument?
Personally, however, I am usually skeptical when I hear of a story. Especially for the reasons listed above (not knowing all details, personal projections, we become judgmental etc.) I did, however, open up my Mictavei U’Ma’amarei R’ Shach. In cheleck 1 & 2, page 134, he has an interesting piece which I thought would be fitting to add to this discussion.
He says that nowadays, it is an obligation to “educate girls in the spirit (ruach) of the Torah” just like it is a mitzva to educate the boys. For without this there is no way to protect them from the outside world.
R’ Shach adds that he believe that the money for sending daughters to Yeshiva is just like the money used for sons to Yeshiva (i.e. not included in the set amount determined on Rosh HaShana. He also adds the words ??? ?????? ?????? ????.May 24, 2009 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #647355torah_jew_613Member
Isn’t Rav Shach zt”l quoted as having said that women can learn torah; the issur is a man teaching them torah–meaning forcing them to learn in a school setting. I don’t believe the story with the seminary girls. It does not seem to fit with Rav Shach at all.May 24, 2009 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #647356chaverimMember
tj613: They can only learn certain parts of the Torah. I think bcsav but not baal peh. The story is well known.May 25, 2009 1:46 am at 1:46 am #647357goody613Member
there r plenty of stories of people coming to rabonim with shaylos and they wouldn’t answer them even though they knew the answer because all the people were trying to do was stump the rav not actually caring about the answerJune 2, 2009 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #647359cherrybimParticipantJune 2, 2009 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #647360
I’m leary of the story of Rav Shach. I don’t believe that he would be so flippant – a good wife doesnt need to know how to bake cookies. She needs to know how to run a proper Jewish home (which incidentally, a man really does too). She needs to understand halacha. I personally am not mekabel the story of Rav Shach because I don’t think he would do that to girls who (at least portrayed in the story) just asked a good question in NACH (its not like they were getting into more controversial areas like gemara – a different point to debate). There is much conjecture on both sides and I understand Oomis’ point.
Oomis, I am sorry you were attacked by everyone. It seems like people here cannot accept any criticism on their rabbonim, but feel free to dish it out if its a “more modern” Rabbi.
Ames, to the Beis Medrash point – a Beis Medrash is just really a designated place of learning. At Stern College, they have a room called the Beis Medrash. Its a nice place where the seforim are stored and is condusive to learning (the tables/chairs are appropriate, the seforim are there, the only conversation going on is the learning etc). So, it helps women learn. I am not sure why you take offense to that.
For those of you who cry “feminist!” to Jfem because learning increases her yirei shamayim – that is ludicrous. We all relate to Hashem in different ways and some women are enticed towards learning. You may not feel that way, but she does and its important that she (and other women who apperciate the learning) continue. I am not a hard-core learner by any stretch of the imagination, but I understand that some women are.June 2, 2009 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #647361
“Beis Medrash is just really a designated place of learning”
in truth a Beis Medresh is likened in the Gemorah to the Beis HaMikdosh, it has GREAT Kedushah, though it is not treated as such in general by most people (unfortunately, and against Halachah).
the MEN who learn there are likened to the MALE Kohanim who do the Avodah in the Bais HaMikdosh.
men and women are not equivalent, they do not have the same responsibilities, they do not have the same privileges, they do not have the same functions in this world, each must carry out his own purpose for which he was created and which HaKodeshBorchu desires. even if doing the work of men causes satisfaction and even chizuk and spiritual improvement to some women.
in truth, you can rationalize any way you want, but in truth, when a woman wants to do what men, in Klal Yisroel, have done since the beginning of our nation, these women actually feel inferior to men. they simply do not know the greatness of a woman.
the darkness of these days has strengthened their ignorance and given birth to a new desire, to be like the Nations, to imitate their ways, to seek the grail of gender equivalence. they look to obtain self satisfaction by desiring what was not meant for them, instead of seeking to bring out the greatness they have within.
soon Moshiach will come, IYH, and cast a great illumination upon the world and all of our crooked thoughts will be straightened. until then, im afraid there will be no answer.June 2, 2009 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #647362
Ames, I’m just pointing out that its the same thing. While a real Beis Medrash (like the one Feivel is talking about above) may be different, I don’t think we really have those today. But you want to call it a library? That is fine – except that libraries are usually quiet.
Feivel, most women I know who are very into their learning (and I said most – I do know some women who just want to be exactly like men, but they have other issues as well) do it purely for the pursuit of Torah knowledge. It is how THEY relate best to Hashem and its important for THEIR spiritual growth to keep learning. It has nothing to do with wanting to do what a man does – I personally think thats typical male arrogance of not understanding the quest for knowledge.
Many people thought I was crazy for going into Engineering. There were so many people who told me I was crazy and “math is for men.” But it was what interested ME and what was good for ME. So I proceeded with the educational path that was right for ME. Should I have become a teacher just to fit in with what other people were doing? Not if I wasn’t violating halacha.
There are many true paths to Hashem, and if a woman finds her yirei shamayim increasing because of her learning, why shouldn’t she be learning? Is it better to lose her because you cut off the Torah from her?
Besides, isn’t it a man’s responsibility to provide for his wife? If so, he should be out working, not sitting in Kollel. So there is definitely room for differences in the general gender roles and how everything plays out. Kollel is really a feminist society in disguise.June 2, 2009 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #647363
“I don’t think we really have those today”
we most certainly do.
“It has nothing to do with wanting to do what a man does – I personally think thats typical male arrogance of not understanding the quest for knowledge.”
think what you willJune 2, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #647364
Feivel, if thats the case, why don’t we demand the proper respect for a Beis Medrash? I’ve heard MANY stories about them that don’t show that we are treating them properly. In fact, from what I’ve heard about the Stern Beis Medrash shows a lot more respect than most men seem to. If you find the term Beis Medrash offensive, feel free to insert word of your choice (Ames chose library – thats fairly appropriate). The term doesnt matter so much – its about creating a proper learning environment.
You obviously have no adequate response for understanding why a woman would want to learn…June 2, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #647365
“…proper respect for a Beis Medrash? I’ve heard MANY stories about them that don’t show that we are treating them properly.”
this is very true
it is a very sad situation
“In fact, from what I’ve heard about the Stern Beis Medrash shows a lot more respect than most men seem to.”
im not surprised. Jewish women today are generally quite a bit more mature than men, and generally have a deeper spiritual connection to the Torah, more natural fear and respect.June 2, 2009 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #647366
“Oomis, I am sorry you were attacked by everyone. It seems like people here cannot accept any criticism on their rabbonim, but feel free to dish it out if its a “more modern” Rabbi.”
Thanks, SJS, but I was only “attacked” by people who feel very strongly about their point of view, which I can understand, though I still disagree with them. I will not respond in kind, because their insulting remarks in a very public forum, says more about them than it does about me. When I disagree with someone, I try to express my opinion without personally attacking the other party. That’s what I was taught by my parents and in Yeshivah. I guess the boys’ Yeshivahs do not consider that to be a vital part of their chinuch. I have already been moichel them for their insulting remarks. Thank you for your concern, though. It is appreciated very much.June 2, 2009 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #647367
Oomis, turning this issue into “I am mochel them” does not exonerate you from the Lashon Hara (L”H because it was false characterization, and not MSR) you gave so freely about Rav Shach.
I find it very distasteful that you would turn this into a self-righteous “I forgive them, they don’t know better” issue. This does NOT make you sound special and holy, it is simply more snideness.
You did the attacking to a Godol, and the Mechila needs to be asked by you (not to us, of course), not granted by you.June 3, 2009 2:47 am at 2:47 am #647368
Oomis, turning this issue into “I am mochel them” does not exonerate you from the Lashon Hara (L”H because it was false characterization, and not MSR) you gave so freely about Rav Shach.
Oh please! I attacked no Godol, I said I found it hard to believe the story as it was told, and gave the reasons why it would disturb me were this total truth. Give this a rest, please. I was moichel a few boors who without even knowing me, and clearly unable to read what was written,or comprehend that which they did read, ascribed to me the quality of saying L”H, as did you, btw. They proceeded to castigate me publicly, and accuse me of things that I did not mean or even say. They inferred incorrectly that I was derisive of R’ Shach ZT”L. I still hold by my opinion that any rav, much less one to whom an entire generation looks up for guidance as to how to conduct their lives, has an achrayus to be above making petty remarks that make fun of people who turn to him for clarification, and I found it hard to believe that this story took place exactly as described, specifically because R” Shach was such a great Gadol.
If you cannot understand that, there is nothing further that I can really do to help you to understand what I was saying. If you feel compelled to believe that I would chalilah make fun of a Gadol Hador, then I would suggest that whoever it is who was circulating this story is the real bearer of L”H. And by accusing me of snideness when I was simply stating that I am not angry with those who wrote nasty remarks to me, yourself included, you err. I was not being snide. I am not a grudge holder. I went to a shiur tonight that discussed how important mechilah is, even to be given to people who don’t realize they need to ask it. I give it freely. And I am neither more special nor any holier than the rest of you. Perhaps that is something you ought to realize about yourselves, vis a vis other Jews who share opinions differing from your own.
Mods, I wish you would close this thread. It is getting us all nowhere, and generating a lot of negativity.June 3, 2009 2:57 am at 2:57 am #647369JaxMember
i second this thread to be closed!June 3, 2009 3:50 am at 3:50 am #647370
I agree this thread should be closed, and it perhaps would have been better to close it a while ago, immediately following the negative aspersions cast upon Rav Shach. This is “Yeshiva Word”, and yes, some things are simply inappropriate.
This is not a matter of different Jews’ opinions; this is about how we speak about a Gadol. If you had said this in private to me, I may not have felt the need to reply; posting on a public forum carries a responsibility, and it is vital to mitigate brazenness against our Gedolim in such a forum. You might be well meaning, but a line has been crossed.
Mods, I do think it would be the honorable thing to close this thread. Thank you.June 3, 2009 4:53 am at 4:53 am #647371ambushParticipant
(me included… i unfortunately read part of this thread…)
i guess are human beings and forget that we just received the Torah only a few days ago…
Is it possible to close this thread?June 3, 2009 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #647372
You know, if Jewishfeminist would have called it library, it would not have bothered me at all. I have no issues with women learning. It’s the term Beis Medrash that doesn’t sit well with me. It sounds like the women are trying to be like the men, and that’s not what Hashem wants. Do you think girls who read from the Torah on their Bat Mitzvah are doing something good? I bet their “yiras shamayim” is being strengthened. (that’s sarcasm for those who missed it)
Ames, I think she just called is a Beis Medrash because thats what they are generally called. I don’t think it was a “feminist” line. As for reading the Torah at a Bat Mitzvah – its not something I did (nor want to), but as long as your Rav says its allowed (I think women use a different bracha?) and its something you feel will help your yiras shamayim, then yes, I do think its a good thing.
Feivel, another reason I think a womens Beis Medrash (or library if you prefer) is more likely to get respect is that the people in there are only really serious learners. With men, lots of men go because they feel compelled to or forced or whatever and its not JUST the serious learners.
Interstingly (and somewhat similiar), my rav told me that today there is no real thing as a real shul anymore – he said if they were to classify themselves that way, no one would be able to utter a word (including the Rabbi himself to give a shiur). I don’t know all the details (if anyone else does feel free to fill it in), but thats one reason I was leaning towards a real Beis Medrash doesnt exist anymore.June 3, 2009 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #647373
SJSinNYC: Shuls today are made on a Tnayi (condition) that they do not have the Kedushas Bais HaKnesses.
I think the thread is “somewhat” off topic? Perhaps “How can people gain additional Yiras Shomayim” should be started, & this be closed? I have an interesting Rabbanu Yona on the subject.June 3, 2009 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #647375squeakParticipant
SJS, Beis Knesses < > Bais Medrash. As GAW said, all shuls that are built today are made with the stipulation that it should have Kedushas Bais Medrash and not Kedushas Bais Knesses. Most are also built without the distinguishing features of a Bais Knesses as well.June 3, 2009 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #647376tbParticipant
The logic being expressed here seems to be – this is something that I find spiritually fullfilling and therefore it is the right thing for me to do. However, this logic only holds true in a man (or person if you prefer) made “religion”. I’m sure cristians, moslems and even canibbals find alot of spiritual satisfaction in what they do. In a G-d given religion as yiddishkeit is, REAL spiritual fullfillment can only be attained by doing Ratzon Hashem. Therefore if Hashem wants you to be doing something, no matter how “unfullfilling” the whole world may view that action, we can with the correct attitude find spiritual fullfillment in it. And if Hashem does not want us to be doing something, no matter how spiritual it may feel to us, it is not spirituallity but yetzer horahJune 3, 2009 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #647377
squeak and GAW,
Can you tell us what the distinguishing features are for both, and when/why the stipulations began?
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