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- This topic has 89 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 9 months ago by mazal77.
November 7, 2008 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #588558
Did anyone ask their LOR about R’ Elyashiv’s psak? Did this apply only in EY?
I’m just curious why if its really ervah, it took R’ Elyashiv so long to give this psak? Sheitels have looked so real for a long time.
[This is not to start a bash R’ Elyashiv post, just to get some information]November 7, 2008 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #692063
I think (and correct me if I am mistaken) that the phenomenon of real looking wigs (that are indistinguishable from real hair) has become popularized only relatively recently (roughly the last 10 years, give or take.)November 7, 2008 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #692064GILAMember
if someone cant tell your wearing a sheitel it looks exactly like your hair its wrongNovember 7, 2008 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #692065BYgirlMember
I would also like to know more details like what exactly R’Elyashiv meant. I feel like it was just put out there with little or no explanation, why now? What exactly is the alternative???November 7, 2008 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #692066Mayan_DvashParticipant
…nuances get lost in translation.November 7, 2008 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #692067
Gila, I dont know if you ever learnt the source of hair coverings, but the way you state it is not so simple. A woman’s own hair is ervah – that doesnt neccesarily mean that a sheitel of hair (no matter how real looking ) is ervah. I remember learning that some people even say its ok to cut your own hair off to make a sheitel, because its only when its attached to you that its ervah.
Joseph, even if its only the last ten years or so, ten years is a long time to wait to make a psak on something this big!!! If the community started eating some sort of treif, would he wait ten years??November 7, 2008 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #692068
SJS, It may well be less than 10 years. Nevertheless, whenever this unfortunate activity debuted, it began in small numbers – mainly amongst those who follow every fad and trend – and from there unfortunately spread to others. So its being used in large numbers, may be of more recent vintage.November 7, 2008 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #692069TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
Gila … I am not sure if you are correct or not on your statement.
As far as I know, and if I can recall, HaRav Herchel Shachter wrote a lengthy article on this subject in one of Yeshiva Universities publications’s, the sexual attraction of a woman’s hair is in the hair itstelf, and not necessarily in a real looking wig (no matter how good)
In addition, forgive my cynicism, but I really do not place stock in these Psakim that are coming out for two seperate reasons.
1) I do not trust the people informing R’ Elyashiv (they have proven themselves to be so)
2) I think that his psakim are taken out of context and what we here is not what we said
In addition, since when is Rav Elyashiv appointed the Rav of the entire world. I have very simple solution … Go ask your local Orthodox Rabbi. It is ridiculous that we must constantly be running to E”Y for every questionNovember 7, 2008 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #692070
For all those who comment on the wrongness of wearing real-looking sheitels- PLEASE, PLEASE tell me exactly where in the Gemarah it states that a head coverong has to look phony or ugly? If you believe this to be so and there is no halachic source that states the fact, then you are assuming that the reason for covering the hair is in order to make a woman look unattractive (which would make her look unattractive to her husband too, no doubt). Ha-Shem did not even state in the Torah shebichsav that a married woman must cover her hair. It was inferred from the Isha Sotah. I personally cover my hair, but I have a problem with the inference issue, because if a married woman’s hair is erva, then why is it not untzniusdig for the Kohein to unwrap it? Is he likewise allowed to unwrap the rest of clothing (erva is erva)? Is the justification for this because she committed adultery? What if she was totally INNOCENT – then he has seen her (hair) erva and she didn’t even deserve that embarrassment.
The whole covering the hair inyan has always bothered me because I believe too many people make assumptions about the halacha. Perhaps a woman should never wear anything but rags, lest she appear attractive to others. That also covers her erva. Somehow, I do not accept that women wore ugly wigs in ancient times, if in fact they wore wigs at all. Maybe it is assur to wear a pretty hat, scarf, or other attractive headcovering.
If the specific halacha is to cover the hair because the woman’s own hair growing from her head is erva, then that has nothing to do with the TYPE of covering. If however the halacha is to cover the hair because Ha-Shem wants her to look less attractive, then the point made about the wigs would hold validity. I would sincerely love to know how Rav Elyashiv was able to see what type wigs Jewish women wore in ancient time, as he seems so certain of the styles.November 7, 2008 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #692071
oomis, see this post for source references regarding the Biblical requirement for a married woman to cover hair:
“According to Torah law, married women must cover their hair whenever they are outside their home. A woman who fails to do so forfeits her kesubah and should technically be divorced by her husband (Kesuvos 72a; E.H. 115:1-4). Mishnah Berurah 75:14 and Beiur Halachah say it must even be covered inside the home.”November 9, 2008 3:21 am at 3:21 am #692072
Joseph no offence but you drive me and I would assume many other people very crazy. It is very intresting how you spend your WHOLE day bashing women and what they are doing wrong. you seem to always be commenting. Your job is to learn and you dont seem to be doing much of that. So why dont you leave our issues to us and work on your own issues. Thank you.November 9, 2008 3:46 am at 3:46 am #692073
coolest, I’m sorry if the Torah offends you, and quotes directly from the Torah drives you crazy. P.S. The Torah quotes do not bash women.November 9, 2008 3:55 am at 3:55 am #692074
Thank you. I didnt say Torah bashes women I said that you do.November 9, 2008 4:03 am at 4:03 am #692075anon for thisParticipant
Joseph, I don’t think the Torah bashes women. But some people who criticize women use the Torah to justify it.November 9, 2008 4:52 am at 4:52 am #692076
anon, criticize what? And which part of the Torah?November 9, 2008 5:12 am at 5:12 am #692077
coolest, all I did was quote from the Torah. Which part specificly didn’t you like?November 9, 2008 5:19 am at 5:19 am #692078
Joseph, thank you for the source, but that was not my question. I did not so much question whether or not married women should cover their hair according to the TORAH, but rather where there is any source in the TORAH that the hair must be covered in an unattractive way i.e., with an ugly wig. I question what the intent of the halacha might possibly be. Did Ha-Shem want women to make themselves unattractive by covering themselves in unflattering hair coverings (and then why not ugly clothing, too?), or is it simply that the natural growing hair of the married woman takes on a halachic status that it must be kept private for her husband’s eyes alone? In that case, one cannot ipso facto infer from that statement that the intent is to make her ugly to other men, but simply rather that she is to keep her natural erva only for her husband. There is a huge difference between saying she must look unattractive to others, or saying that her natural hair must be for her husband alone to see, but she can still cover that natural hair with other (nice) hair, because it is NOT her own hair.November 9, 2008 6:03 am at 6:03 am #692079
oomis, no, certainly not. There is no requirement that a woman wear an ugly wig or an otherwise distasteful covering.November 9, 2008 7:01 am at 7:01 am #692080eyesopenMember
The true issue here is tznius. Halachically a woman can wear a garbage bag and be covered perfectly-but does anyone do that? The hallmark of a Jewish woman is her tznius-her modestly in speech, action and way of dress. When a woman is wearing a long flowing natural looking sheitel, a tight t shirt and a pencil skirt with six inch heels she is technically covered by halacha-but is she observing the spirit of the law? The same goes for the men who imitate the fashion trends that are so obviously pritzus. I think that the entire issue is that some Jewish women (and men) have become enslaved to whatever trend happens to be current-and that is what is being protested by the gedolim. If a Jew is following whatever goyishe trend is in place then it is an indication of where the focus is-and it is the rabbonim’s job to focus the nation on its spiritual priorities. One reason we were taken out of galus mitzrayim was because we did not change our way of dress, we looked distinctly different from the Egyptians. With geula so imminent, it is right for the gedolim to wake us up!November 9, 2008 8:48 am at 8:48 am #692081anon for thisParticipant
I didn’t mean to use the word “bash”; it’s too strong and not accurate. But it does make me feel uncomfortable that you post so often on issues that pertain to women’s dress & behavior, and nearly always in a critical way. Please forgive me for projecting, but if my husband or son posted these types of posts as frequently as you do I’d be concerned about him. I understand that you feel this is an appropriate way to modify behavior that you feel is wrong. However, I think the discomfort I feel, which may be shared by other posters to this board, is affecting your ability to communicate the message you’d like to share.November 9, 2008 10:41 am at 10:41 am #692082
No one says you have to wear a rag on your head. There are some very nice scarves and head coverings out there. And as far as eye catching scarves, I remember my husband commenting on a the color of head scarf, (a bright orange color seen from all the way down the block.) that it was too bright and noticeable. A woman can look attractive, not attracting. Some of these long sheitels are just not not right and they are very attracting. If they(the wig) make another man look at her and think in imodest thought, then she is at fault. Also, the wigs from 50% ago looked like straw. You could tell they were wigs. You know where a woman is suppose to look attractive?? in her home for her husband only!!! Our wonderful mothers ,before we were redeemed from Mitzrayim, that used their coopper mirrors to beautify themselves for their husbands only, not the Egyptian man walking down the street. Do you think they wore wigs?? Do you think that their husbands thought they were less beautiful because they wore a head covering. Because of those same women, we were redeemed from Mitzrayim and Hashem accepted their gift to the Mishkan, because it was used for a holy deed.
One thing about the moslem women on how they cover themselves L’havdil no matter what, their sin, this is surely is a zechus for Yismahael. I think we really need to be even more vigilant in our standard of Tzinyus. I am sure the Rav knows alot more as needs to be done to bring our own geula quickly. My dear sisters it is time once again to rise against the Yetzer Hara and not give in. He is a very cunning being. Surely, our return to even higher standard of Tzinyus will be a zechus for Klal Yisrael. We had the back power than and we have to power to do it again!!November 9, 2008 11:09 am at 11:09 am #692083
I found a website that has it. It is called “dreaming of moshiach”. It was posted on Tuesday, Nov 4, how scary, Election day. A definte signifigance. When Obama slogan of “Change”, Hashem was sending a direct message to all yidden to change. When we do, we won’t have to worry about Obama,or Iran, or anybody. Who are we in this world to appease. Do you actually, think Hashem thinks that a gorgeous wig is the proper thing to do. The Yetzer Haroh has found a way to make it seem “kosher” for beautiful undetacable wigs. He really has brainwashed us hasn’t he?? Just like a pig has one kosher sign of split hooves, he rolls in the mud with his feet sticking out for all to see “but look I’am kosher” “I have split hooves”” “but look at me, I am kosher my hair is covered with a stunning wig, that a goyish man can’t even tell it is a wig.. but my hair is covered”
The Rav says that these women look like paris fashion models. Really, I have seen some names of these wigs, named after “famous hairstyles” Do you really want to emulate these beings?? Does Hollywood have to dictate the styles on even wigs. I think something is very wrong if we are. Part of being modest is not to be noticed.November 9, 2008 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #692084
Oomis, I agree with you. All the sources I have ever learned about covering hair did not say “You cant wear a real looking sheitel.” I remember learning in high school that there is a debate on whether you can use your own hair (cut off) as a sheitel or not. If I remember correctly, the conclusion was that most people said no, but some said yes. Kal vechomer…
I wonder if there is more going on behind this. I wonder if Rabbis are tired of not knowing who is married and who is not (its usually pretty obvious to me with even the best sheitels but who knows). I wonder if its the rabbis trying to prevent men from having impure thoughts about married women (which is a big problem) because they cant tell a woman is married vs having them about single women which isnt as problematic.
Anyone speak to their LOR yet? Or going to? I didnt have time to this shabbos.November 9, 2008 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #692085
mazal77: Beautiful words.November 9, 2008 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #692086noitallmrParticipant
Basically the point is that one should focus more on making a Sheitel into a covering of the hair as apposed to a nice piece of clothing. This does not and i repeat not mean that one has to walk around with a horrible Sheitel just as one doesn’t have to walk around with horrible clothes…November 9, 2008 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #692087BogenParticipant
mazal77: Whats the address for that site? I’d love to see it!November 9, 2008 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #692088
Intresting that you think that all you do is quote from the Torah. Where is your source for the comment that you dont want ladies in high government positions? And how are you so aware of everything that women are doing wrong in their dress. Again, no offence.November 10, 2008 12:39 am at 12:39 am #692089Yanky55Participant
Why do you people think the Chassam Sofer was opposed to sheitels altogether?November 10, 2008 3:21 am at 3:21 am #692090
Precisely. The reason many poskim do not allow ANY sheitels is precisely because it can be mistaken for the wearers regular hair.
And that also answers the question of what is the problem with genuine-looking sheitels, even according to the poskim whp DO allow sheitels.November 10, 2008 3:29 am at 3:29 am #692091
Thank you Joseph for your compliment, when I saw this thread, I had to to comment. And the Bogen, just google “dreaming of moshiach” and you will see this Blogsite. I just happen to stumble upon it last night. There are many intresting things to read here.November 10, 2008 4:13 am at 4:13 am #692092
“Precisely. The reason many poskim do not allow ANY sheitels is precisely because it can be mistaken for the wearers regular hair.”
So what???? What if the wearer’s REAL hair is really ugly? Does it make that hair any less assur to be viewed by a man other than her husband? No. It has nothing to do with the beauty or lack thereof, it would seem to me, but rather the fact that the hair acquires a new status of kedusha upon marriage. To explain my point in a more readily understandable venue, when askewd why we don’t eat bacon, we cannot say it is because bacon is horrible, tastes bad, is unhealthy, etc. Nope – it is delicious (so tells me my baal teshuva husband), but it not mutar for a Jew to eat – period! So we don’t eat it. A woman’s natural hair does not have to be ugly in order for us to have a chiyuv to cover it. Nor do we have to look ugly in the covering of it. It is just not mutar to show it to any man but the person for whose eyes it is intended.November 10, 2008 4:28 am at 4:28 am #692093sammyjoeMember
Joseph:(who is one of the poskim here on yeshiva world) what about the “palin sheytil” is that muttar aor ussser? or maybe its mehudar b/c its a conservative family values hockey mom sheytil? or its a goyishe pit bull with lipstick?November 10, 2008 7:20 am at 7:20 am #692095
I have a feeling this topic is going to be a really long thread because it is such a sensitive issue among jewish women. It is really a hard thing for women to give up, but if is going to bring Moshiach easier, then why not do it. I think some women do wear a sheitel because they want to blend in a little more and not be seen as so obviously jewish. Really, be honest with yourselves about this. If your Rav issued a takanah tomorrow, that wigs are not really tzinus and are therefore no longer acceptable, would you be willing to go along with it?? Let’s say there was a working woman with a major meeting that day?? What would you do?? Who are we covering our hair for??? Hashem of course!! You see that is the problem with people. We fear others more, we fear what other people may think of us, we fear the economy collapsing, we fear illnesses, but we don’t have a fear of Hashem, or His messenger, the Rabbonim. Hashem purposely, took away that fear of Him, so we would be able to have bechirah, free will. The goal in life is to try to regain it and put our bitachon in Hashem.November 10, 2008 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #692096
Mazal, there is something that you are missing. Where does halacha state that your head covering has to look like one? There must be a halachic source that says that in order to enforce this. I have really gross hair – even straw looking sheitels are nicer than my hair. Does that mean I cannot wear a sheitel at all because its an improvement?
I think we need to define what “Seiar beisha ervah” actually means. Because to my understanding, its the hair on a woman’s head that is ervah and it needs a head covering. Why should someone else’s hair be ervah on MY head?? Torah is usually logical about this, so if Torah is not being logical, I would need to see a source (Joseph, can you provide a source? You are usually good at that).
As to fashion – halacha does not dictate that you should be dressed in bad fashion. Just because it was in style 20 years ago and not now makes it ok? EVERYTHING we wear nowadays is based on the fashion of the goyim – otherwise we would be back to wearing long robes and sandals like in the desert.
German Jews used to be made fun of for wearing short jackets like the rest of the Germans – nowadays EVERYONE wears them. Go to BMG in Lakewood – all the men are wearing suits, the same kinds that German Jews were ridiculed previously for.November 10, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #692097smalltowngirlMember
oomis, you are very wise and I feel a strong connection to you through your posts.
mazal77, I do not cover my hair for HaShem nor to bring Moshiach – I cover my hair for ME, it is a mitzva that HaShem gave to ME as interpreted by our sages. But I stress that I do it for ME not HaShem as with all of the mitzvos. I keep Shabbos and taharas hamishpacha and kashrus for ME because Ha Kodosh Baruch Hu gave ME the opportunity to do these mitzvos to improve ME.
I love my yiddishkeit – its really all about ME!
Yes, it is all about ME – so that I can be a better ME to serve HaShem.November 10, 2008 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #692098yoshiMember
Whether one covers their hair or not, I personally would never wear a wig. It makes me think of cancer. For anyone who has witnessed someone lose their hair due to chemo, makes it forever impossible to ever think of wearing a wig. This may sound extreme, but some are more sensitive than others, and you can’t fault them for that.November 10, 2008 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #692099
Mazal: You speak true words of wisdom.
Yoshi: You would feel at home in many communities that do not allow wigs (e.g. Satmar), and the women wear snoods.November 10, 2008 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #692100
SJSinNY has really given voice to my own feelings in this matter. If a Rav who was my poseik issued a takana such as that, and we were required to wear ugly head coverings, I would be concerned that THIS would prove to be untzniusdig, because it would call SO much more attention to the women thusly attired, probably cause a tremendous chilul Ha-Shem as the non-religious Jews around us, not to mention non-Jews talked about how Judaism is a religion that uglifies its women. There is a difference between being modest in dress and demeanor, and being frumpy and dowdy. Ha-Shem created a world of beauty to be appreciated. If someone chooses to deify that beauty and worship trees, do we cover up the trees?
As to the fashion issue – I would point out that the chassidic garb of today that we hold to be so proper, is very much the clothing of the non-Jews of Europe in years past. If it was proper to copy their clothing and adopt it then, as long as a particular fashion statement is not revealing of erva (such as a woman’s bosom) or TOO tight, then it behooves people to stop being so judgmental of women who want to look stylish. Should girls go out on dates looking dowdy also? No, we WANT them to be attractive, and we want them to ATTRACT their husbands, because otherwise there will be no continuity of the Jewish nation. when a woman is continuously told she should not look attractive in public, what makes you think she has any experience in making herself look attractive in private, either? And furthermore, considering the HUGE numbers of women who are in the workforce SUPPORTING THEIR HUSBANDS, how successful do you think they would be if they dressed in a non-professional and unpresentable manner? For that matter, how successful are MEN who dress in an unpresentable manner?November 10, 2008 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #692101halavaiMember
While it is hard to see how a real-looking sheitel could possibly be erva l’maiseh (it DOES cover the hair after all), I don’t see why it is so hard to accept that these types of sheitels lacking in tznius. Yes, tznius allows for, and encourages being attractive, but when you are so attractive that you begin attracting improper attentions, that is not ok. There is a line (and we can open a new forum to debate what that line is…)
As someone said before, the yetzer hara really has brainwashed us with regard to sheitel, r”l. While the ideas behind head-covering after marriage are complex and kabbalistically rooted, there is still an over-riding aspect of tznius- a married woman has to be even more careful about tznius than a single woman!
Also, why does everyone think tichels and snoods equal ugliness? I have a great collection of tichels and snoods, and my friends always compliment me on them, and I feel good about how I dress. Anyway, sheitels are horribly uncomfortable.
We take too many shortcuts in tznius- shortcuts that we wouldn’t dare to take in any other area of our observance. Tznius is not specifically written out in the Torah, because the Torah lives and breathes tznius in every word, and because it is a spirit more than a cut-and-dried set of rules. We should live our lives that way too, and dress in the spirit even when we can find the loopholes. We should be zocheh to bring about the geula through careful observance of tznius.November 10, 2008 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #692102rabbiofberlinParticipant
i have come late (very late) to this post and I am only responding to some of the questions posed on why is hair ‘ervah’,(see SJSin NYC)etc..
Actually, the word ‘ervah’ is used for other parts of the body (“shoik”, thigh) and also to the voice of a woman. there are some kabbalsitic aspects to the hair of the head being the soruce of the ‘soton’ but I’ll refrain from quoting these mystic opinions.
Basically, hair is considered ‘ervah” because it was and is a source of beauty for women and hence, a source of possible seduction from a forbidden woman.This is clearly the reason as it is equated to the reason for “shoik” (thigh) and singing being an ‘ervah”. There is no intrinsic issur on hair. This is clear as girls who are unmarried are not subject to this rule. Additionally, the Aruch Hashulchan allows to say “divrei kedusha” in front of a woman with uncovered hair. He decries this custom but BECAUSE of this fact ,he says that uncovered is not an ‘ervah’ as far as kriat sheman is concerned. Rav Moshe Feinstein zzl’ also allows a “tefach” of hair to be uncovered as the gemoro says ” tefach be’isho ervah”. Clearly, hair is not intrinsically ossur but it is the allure of the hair that is the problem here.
What has happened is that woman’s hair has been imbued with some supernatural issur,based on kabbalistical sources and therefore, sheitels became OK because they were not the real hair,
In truth, all the beautiful sheitels are an end=run over the fact of uncovered hair. It would be a lot better to have a hat or a snood or a scarf. However, because women have adopted sheitels enthusiastically and the rabbonim will not issue a gezeira that will not be heeded,they have refrained from doing that. Hence, sheitels are here to stay!November 10, 2008 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #692103charliehallParticipant
Headcoverings for women are a machloket poskim; with some saying from the Torah, others from the rabbis, and a daat yachid here and there saying it is a pious minhag. OTOH, Rav Elyashiv and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef forbid wigs, but OTOH Rav Hirsch said that a woman can fulfill the headcovering requirement by fashioning a wig from her own hair! Every Jewish woman should follow her own rabbi on this one — and we Jewish men should honor them when they do that, however they do that.November 10, 2008 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #692104
halavai & mazal,
Thank You both for YOUR stirring and uplifting message.November 11, 2008 2:04 am at 2:04 am #692105
Halavai your words were written so nicely put and so beautifully.
small town girl, you are contradicting yourself when you say you don’t wear a wig for Hashem or to bring Moshiach, but for yourself because it is a mitzvah. That means you are doing it for Hashem, because He is the the one who gave you that mitzvah in the first place. If He didn’t command it, you wouldn’t do it. I read somewhere of a dream a woman had and they told her in her dream that Moshiach was being held back because women wear wigs and even though some Rabonimm gave the okay, a woman will still be responible, even though she davened and was a perfect tzadakess. I have given that website in a previous post. I had written another post with then name of that story, but it was edited by YWN. Also, you say you are doing it because of the mitzvah, the whole point of the Torah is to come to the realization of Moshiach and that Hashem is the true creator of the world. To fear Hashem is the ultimate thing. It seems you care more about what others think of you in how you dress, then what Hashem really wants from us. If something like this is holding back the Moshiach, then I say Rabonnim, bring on that takanah!! Don’t you want Moshiach? All the problems the whole world is going through, we have a chance to resolve it peacefully and do teshuvah. That window to do teshuva before Moshaiach comes will be very small. The economy has not even hit rockbottom yet. Hashem is showing us that nothing in this world is stable except for the belief in Hashem. I guess I am very worried about the world situation and I DO want to help bring Moshaich easily. I am praying that Hashem should not harm not even one Jew, religous or not. And that we all unite and come to do teshuva together while it is still peacefull and not while we are forced to do teshuva
Also, I read somewhere, that women started wearing wigs 60 years ago, because they were prohibted from wearing hats. Those wigs did not look anything we have nowadays. I don’t think that if those Rabonnim that gave permission back then on wigs, if they saw the wigs some Jewish women wear today, for sure they would forbid it. Like a said the Yetzer Hara came in and messed us up. And the fact that some women are saying that there own hair is ugly and of course would want to cover it up with an attractive wig.
Oomiss, why do you think dressing completely be’tzinus = being dowdy. Who has told you, that you have to look ugly out in public?? Who said single girls have to look dowdy, unless you think a skirt below the knees and a covering neckline and sleeves to the wrists is dowdy. Do you wear straight skirts that barely cover the knees that when you sit the skirt rides up?? When I go shopping for skirts, I take the sitting challange. If they show my knees, they go back to the rack. If I have to keep pulling the skirt down because it rides up, it goes back on the rack. Or do you check that your elbow sleeves doesn’t reveal the above the elbows as you reach for something. I have very stylish friends who only wear scarves, They wears Coach scarves,Channel & Gucci. I have seen many other women dress completely b’tzinus and look fine. They wear their beautiful scarves so tastefully, it looks like a crown on their heads. About the work force, I am not critizing them, They work very hard. I gave an example. But they and you have to realize who we are dressing for. Hashem, the King of all Kings!!! Not our bosses, not for a wedding or party. We are Daughters of the King. We are responible to dress modestly AND look nice, as long as it is the guidelines of tzinus. When someone dresses nicely AND b’tzinus, it is a Kiddush Hashem. When someone dresses like a shlump,it is not a kiddush Hashem. It IS possible to dress sharp and do it modestly.
I learned in a class that a man has his torah learning to earn Olam Habah, but then what of a woman who is not obligated to learn torah, how does she earn Olam Habah, what is her equlivant to torah learning?? It is to dress modestly. (also encouraging her husband and sons to go learn)
All I am saying is I think that because we were redeemed from Miztrayim because of the Tzyinus of women, and we’re still waiting for him.November 11, 2008 2:50 am at 2:50 am #692106
“Also, why does everyone think tichels and snoods equal ugliness? I have a great collection of tichels and snoods, and my friends always compliment me on them, and I feel good about how I dress”
And that is a very compelling reason for you NOT to wear them, according to the opinion of some of the poskim (not my own feeling, however) – as apparently they are attractive headgear. See, that’s the inyan – it really is not the good looks or lack thereof, I think. In my opinion, it’s how a woman acts when thus attired. A woman who is tzniusdig in her personal actions, will give off that vibe. A woman who is inappropriately flirtatious could be wearing a shmatta on her head, and she will likewise give off a specific vibe. The type of man who reacts inappropriately, will do so because HE has the problem. If he behaves or speaks in an unbecoming way around a married woman, then HE, not she, is at fault, unless she is likewise acting in such a manner. Blaming frum women for looking attractive in a pretty sheitel (when there are so many other ways that she could look equally pretty), is like l’havdil blaming a rape victim who must have been “asking for it,” when clearly it is the violence of the perpetrator and not the looks of the woman, that drives him to commit this aveira. Let the Rabbonim instruct men on their own behavioral shortcomings, instead of unfairly always placing the burden on frum sheitel-wearing women, most of whom ARE tzniusdig, from what I have observed in my own non-Lakewood, non-Monsey and non-Brooklyn community.November 11, 2008 3:02 am at 3:02 am #692107
To answer you Mazel77, I wear long, comfortable (not tight) skirts the almost come to my ankles and sleeves that are no shorter than 3/4 length. If you saw me, you would describe me as Tzniusdig in my manner of dress. To be honest, many single Yeshivish girls whom I have observed in certain neighborhoods, DO look frumpy. They are not well-groomed in many respects, and that is very sad, if they are of a shidduch parsha age, because they are not presenting themselves in a particularly attractive way. If I were a Yeshivah bochur being set up with that girl, I would find it hard to be interested in getting to knwo her better. Girls do not all have to be beautiful, thin, and blonde in order to have a good boy want to marry them. But they do have to have a modicum of style and good taste, wear clothing that fits and flatters as well as being tzniusdig. There is no either or here.November 11, 2008 3:24 am at 3:24 am #692108
Modesty INCLUDES speech as well. I know that and I am glad that you are discussing modesty of speech.. Stop bashing Men. Hashem placed a that feeling so that children will be born, because it is needed in the world. Being that is the case a if a woman is not careful and another man thinks about her, she will be responbile. Please don’t even compare the horrible crime of rape. Surely, little children whom this crime has happened to did not ask or do anything to deserve such a thing. The man has to try himself, not to look. YOU are not a man, you have no idea at all how a man thinks. You don’t know how hard it is for them not to look. YOU, as a MARRIED frum woman, must do all possible not to give another man any reason to even look at you. I am not saying wear a bag over you head. You know very well as an married adult woman, what a man is attracted to. Don’t accenuate your attractions out in public. I am not a man either. I heard a story of a Rebettizin, she asked her friend if she was available to get a ride with her to a wedding. The rebetzin was not sure if she was going, but she just wanted to make sure, she had a way to get there. The Rebetzin called her friend to say she could not make it. Her friend decided to ask the Rebetzin before she left if she changed her mind. When the Rebitzin, answered the door, she was dressed nicely and her face made up. The friend thought she had changed her mind and said, “oh so you are coming”? But the Rebitizin said, no, she was staying home, because her husband was home. Ladies, Hashem gave us mirrors, makeup, perfume, and attractive clothing for only one reason and one reason only. For your Husbands.
So, since you don’t live in Monsey, Brooklyn, or Lakewood, do you live in Passaic??November 11, 2008 3:27 am at 3:27 am #692109
If you mean frumpy by those “down to the floor skirts”, some consider those immodest because they attract attention being that they are so long.November 11, 2008 3:36 am at 3:36 am #692110
Kol HaKavod to you!! I agree some girls and woman dress shlumpy. I think some just don’t have that gift to be able to put things together or just don’t even realize it(how they are dressed). Maybe, they are quite comfortable and could care less what you and I think how they look. I also think some don’t have enough finances.November 11, 2008 5:28 am at 5:28 am #692112
do you live in Passaic??
Nope – – what’s the deal with Passaic? I have Mishpacha near Lakewood, though.November 11, 2008 5:29 am at 5:29 am #692113shkoyachMember
I wasn’t going to post but I am being tempted…
Sheitels have definitely becom an issue these days. unfortunately there are many women out there that would NOT be covering their hair if not for nice shaitelach (I have a feeling our readership includes a number of those). I was speaking to one person that seriously had issues with covering hair (that was not her only issue but for now…) and she Baruch Hashem has chosen though to cover her hair (although not perfectly) with a very beautiful shaitel (her hair too was very nice.) Sometimes when I see her it makes me cringe that she wears the shaitel as she does but then I remind myself that she is covering her hair… a mitzvah she is not so excited about.
And taking a look at one aspect of the covering hair inyan, one of the reasons is for the Isha herself to have her hair tied back to be a constant reminder that she is not free for other men. Thus, whatever the covering it takes care of that aspect. I have to remind myself to be dan lkaf zchus when I see these shaitels that they are at least covering that area of the Mitzvah.
Many things that in past generations would not have been accepted as tznius have today in many circle been totally accepted and tznius. for men and for women. I think that each person needs to follow a Rav as to what is permitted or not for that individual.
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