June 21, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #597532shlishiMember
Where in halacha is it written that it is assur to lie?
When making shalom (peace) is it permissible to lie for that purpose? In what way? Where in halacha is it written that it is permissible to lie for that purpose? What are other examples where lying is permissible?June 21, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1081568
Midvar sheker tirchak.June 21, 2011 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1081570
From the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch…..
??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????
This is the relevant portion of sif kattan Aleph.
.?????? ???????????? ????? ??? ????? ?????,
????? ????? ???? ???,June 21, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1081571MichaelCMember
In Bava Metzia it states 3 circumstances in which you are allowed to lie.
It states in Mishnah Kilayim you can lie to avoid taxation that is over the limit.June 21, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1081572YW Moderator-80Member
in Bava Metzia it states 3 reasons that a TALMID CHOCHOM is allowed to lie.June 21, 2011 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1081573aimhabonimParticipant
“Chosmo shel Hakodesh Boruch Hu emes”. We are supposed to emulate Hashem’s ways.June 21, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1081574on the ballParticipant
You are simply allowed to lie ‘mipnei hashalom’ – if a more peaceful outcome will result.
There are many examples in the Torah and Shas. One is when Hashem said to Soroh that Avraham had exclaimed that HE was too old to have children when in fact he had said that Soroh was too old.June 21, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1081575tobgMember
does the gemorah say “sholom” or “sholom bais”? I really dont remember but i think it would make a big difference.June 21, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1081576on the ballParticipant
not shalom bayis davka – just shalom.
Another example is in the gemara betzah daf 20 – Hillel Hazaken lied about the korban he was bringing to avoid a confrontation with Shamai’s students.June 21, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1081577tobgMember
then maybe Rashi there mentions shalom bayis and i dont think halacha allows it for any type of peace (e.g. peace in yeretz yisroel?)June 22, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1081578shlishiMember
What are the 3 circumstances stated in Bava Metzia that a talmid chochom is permitted to lie?
And under what circumstances does Mishnah Kilayim state you can lie to avoid taxation that is over the limit? What does “over the limit” entail?June 22, 2011 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1081579popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If you are allowed to lie because of shalom, does that mean you can lie to prevent someone from being mad at you?
Wife- Why were you home late?
Truth- At casino, gambling drinking and smoking.
Me- My chavrusa’s car broke down and I was helping him.
Why not? You would be able to if you were the chavrusa and the wife asked you where her husband was, right?June 22, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1081580sheinMember
So lying to your wife to keep shalom falls under the general heter to lie for shalom? Or specifically why not?June 22, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1081581
I always thought that when chazal tell us that one need not be 100% truthful to maintain shalom, it was to maintain shalom between others. For example, in order to maintain shalom between avram and sara, the ribbono shel olam changed saras statement when speaking to avram. Or, as chazal tell us, Aaron Hakohen would go to each party and tell them the other party is sorry and wants to make up, again, for the sake of shalom between people. Simply lying to my wife where I’ve been so that I can weasel out of some housework and maintain shalom with my wife, is lying, not maintaining shalom. Then again, thats what I thought, but I really have no firm basis or proof for it.June 22, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1081582☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Simply lying to my wife where I’ve been so that I can weasel out of some housework and maintain shalom with my wife, is lying, not maintaining shalom.
Since you had the option to do the housework, you didn’t lie for shalom, you lied to get out of housework.
The fallacy with lying to your wife to maintain shalom, such as in pba’s case, is that sheker ein lo raglayim, and ultimately, when she finds out, not only will she be upset at what you did, she’ll be even more upset that you lied to her. The best way to maintain shalom (besides not getting involved in these bad activities to begin with) would be to own up, and ask her to help you get the help you need.June 22, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1081583
DY. I’m not sure if you are agreeing, disagreeing or strengthening what I wrote.May 4, 2015 12:25 am at 12:25 am #1081584
bumpMay 4, 2015 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1081585☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Apushatayid, probably agreeing, but ?? ?????.May 4, 2015 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1081586
apy: Having thoroughly considered it for over three years and having finally responded, DY would appreciate the courtesy of a reply.May 4, 2015 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1081587👑RebYidd23Participant
In another three years.May 4, 2015 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1081588chush biroishoyMember
Midvar sheker tirchuk is only a lav in a beis din setting. Its not so Pashut just stam lyingMay 4, 2015 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1081589WolfishMusingsParticipant
Midvar sheker tirchuk is only a lav in a beis din setting. Its not so Pashut just stam lying
I’d love to hear your source for that. I would have assumed that “Lo Sa’aneh” would cover a judicial setting.
And even if you’re correct, what about “Lo S’shakaru?”
The WolfMay 5, 2015 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1081590
anyone hear of r dessler that says lying for shalom which is muttar is saying the truth?May 6, 2015 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1081591
It’s in the first volume of Michtav Me’Eliyahu. The concept is
that “emes” is not “truth,” but whatever furthers the Will of Hashem.
Thus, in a situation where it is proper to say an untruth, one is
still saying the “emes” (but not, of course, the “truth”).May 6, 2015 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1081592
Anyone hear of Yaakov Avinu having the power that whatever he said would be true? (This does not seem logically possible,
but someone once said something along those lines to me…)May 6, 2015 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1081593
than-xMay 6, 2015 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1081594interjectionParticipant
anyone hear of r dessler that says lying for shalom which is muttar is saying the truth?
These are probably the lies he was referring to. If your wife makes a supper that you think is disgusting, you can tell her it tasted good. If your husband buys you a present that you hate, and returning it will hurt his feelings, tell him you liked it. If your wife looks ugly, tell her she looks gorgeous. If your husband folded the laundry wrong, tell him he did a great job.May 12, 2015 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1081595
“It’s in the first volume of Michtav Me’Eliyahu.”
More precisely, it’s near the end of the first of the
three sections, in the piece titled “Emes v’Sheker.”May 13, 2015 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1081596
“Lying” for shalom isn’t just “muttar”; it should be done as it is the appropriate thing to do, and telling the “truth” if it would cause the opposite of shalom is inappropriate.May 15, 2015 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1081597Rebbe YidParticipant
Like Aharon Hakohein, telling the one guy that the other guy wants to make up with him, and telling the other guy that the first guy wants to make up with him, and letting shalom flow from there.May 15, 2015 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1081598
I can’t believe I didn’t get “than-x” until now. [facepalm]May 15, 2015 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1081599
ya, lots of my jokes have a time release. ive been busy il try to check it out when i can. thanks again.September 10, 2017 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1359906
RY23, it’s almost three years since DY answered APY’s comment from three years before that. Do you think it’s high time for APY to have the courtesy of now responding to DY?September 10, 2017 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1359926Shopping613 🌠Participant
Lying reffers to deceit. You can lie, but not decieve. Ex. “There were a billion people at the wedding” – not a sheker. Your message needs to be true, the words can be shifted.
There’s many halachot on the topic. You don’t have to say personal info, and can lie if someone asks you about it.September 12, 2017 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1362120motchah11Participant
What about telling “fish stories?” You know, men vying for the biggest lie.September 13, 2017 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1363245gavriel613Participant
See Chofetz Chaim in hakdomo where he counts the Lo Saaseis which can be involved in Loshon Hora, and counts sheker
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