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1. If you end up not starting Shemoneh Esrei with the minyan, is it as if you davened b’yichidus?
2. To be considered starting Shemoneh Esrei the same time as the minyan, must it be the exact second the minyan starts it, or is there a “grace period” (i.e. a couple seconds)? If you are still ending kriyas shma, what remedy is there?
3. What should you skip if you see you are falling behind, so you start Shemoneh Esrei the same time as the minyan?
4. Is starting Shemoneh Esrei together with the Shatz (shaliach tzibur), just as good as starting with the minyan?
5. If kedusha is said while you are in middle of the Shemoneh Esrei, can you recite kedusha? Only if you started Shemoneh Esrei with the Shatz?
Large Machlokseim, ask your LOR (or learn up the sugyos).
Most of this is in MB, look it up.
To be considered starting Shemoneh Esrei the same time as the minyan, must it be the exact second the minyan starts
I highly doubt every person in the minyan starts it at the same exact second anyway.
In any event, there must be a “grace period.” After all, even if they start the same second, it’s probably not at the same nano-second.
The Wolf
look in Halichos Shlomo of R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZTL who writes about these type of Questions. From memory it is still Tefillah BTzibbur (although on a slightly lower madreigah)even if you don’t start bang on time with everyone else. Same is brought in name of Chazon Ish in one of the seforim about his hanhogos (forgot the name). Re davening with the shatz – again it is a form of tefillah btzibbur but not as mehudar – that’s the commom consensus but I’ve heard bshem Chasam Sofer that he held actually it is a mehudar Tefillah. If you’re in middle of Shmoneh Esrei when kedusah starts it is forbidden to say it with the tzibbur – you need to be mechaven the words and you are yotze bedieved als Shomeia K’oneh.
I was told as follows: (answers are in your question sequence)
1 – Optimal is starting with everyone else, but as long as there are still people standing, you’re in the clear.
2 – See above, but from Yishtabach till Shemonah Estrei, you can’t skip anything.
3 – everything except Baruch Sheamar, Ashrei, the last Hallelukah, and then its on to Yishtabach (from then on, its no skipping)
4 – Sort of. You can keep pace, and then say kedusha with the shatz, but then you miss all the omains. Best would be to start as soon as you can and catch as many omains as possible.
5 – If you’re smack in middle, you can’t say any part of kedusha. If you start and keep pace, see above.
As you can tell, I’m a pro at falling behind / starting late. Most mornings, I start at one minyan, fall behind and then pick up a later starting minyan (one of the benefits to davening at a minyan factory).
Not the ideal perhaps, but surely better than putting on talis / tefillin, davening from brachos trhu SA in 9 minutes (which I have seen, but cannot understand how the people do it)
“Re davening with the shatz – again it is a form of tefillah btzibbur but not as mehudar – that’s the commom consensus but I’ve heard bshem Chasam Sofer that he held actually it is a mehudar Tefillah.” When davening in a factory you can hav a whole minyan tagging along with the Shatz.
“but from Yishtabach till Shemonah Estrei, you can’t skip anything.” There may be some wiggle room (needs Rabbiinic advice) if you already said Shema before see Mechaber Siman 60 seif 2
??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???, ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ??????
here is something to ask your posek.
The Chayeh Adom in Klal 24 seif 31 brings an abridged emergency Amida. Is this universally accepted normative halacha? So far I havent any one else suggest it except for Sekana Shulcha Aruch 104 1 ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????
In modern prayerbooks the Shmona Esrai is called the Amidah? Does anyone know the reason for the change of name?
If I remember correctly it is not so modern. It is Sephardi usage.
As for the change simple count the letters in each
The change in name from Shemone Esrei to Amidah is because this tefila is the Amidah tefila, the one tefila that mandates standing. The name shemone esrei, although used even for the shabbos and yom tov amidah tefila, is obviously only for the weekdays. So to make the name consistent always, the newer siddurim put in amidah
Halacha – Abriged Amidah
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Answer: The source of the Chaye Adam is the gemara Berachos 28 and it is brought in Shulchan Aruch OC 110:1 and commonly referred to as “Tefilas Havineinu”. However the Mishna Berura there in Biur Halacha and the Aruch HaShulcha write that it is not done just because one cannot concentrate on a full Shmona Esrei, because today people have difficulty concentrating even for an abridged version. Additionally, the Shulchan haTahor writes that it should not be said because Abaye in the Gemera there curses anyone who says an abridged tefilla. Furthermore, the Kaf HaChaim writes that since there are various nusachaos mentioned in the Poskim and we are uncertain which is correct, the minhag is to always only say the full version.
NOTE: One must ALWAYS ask a Rov a Shaila, and NEVER Pasken from the forum! Start S”A with the minyan and daven “almost” everything else afterwards
Shachris once tou say SA you can no longer say ???’ ???? ,???? ????, ?????
Mincha There is a Kabala related problem with Ashrei, just say it as a regular perek rehilim not as makeup
Maariv you can not say the final ???? OF ???? ?’ ????? (if you normally say it)
NOTE: One must ALWAYS ask a Rov a Shaila, and NEVER Pasken from the forum!
IF YOU CANNOT SAY FROM ???? ??? BEFORE AMIDA FORGET ????? ??????
I know this isnt the place for it but I dont know where to put it,
MODS, how does one write in Bold, italics or slanted, larger fonts,
Thanks
See the halachos in back of the Artscroll siddur for guidline on what to skip.
????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?’ ??????:
? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????. ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?’ ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?’ ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?’ ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ????. ???”? ?? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????. ???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???’ ?”? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????
? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?”? ?? ?????. ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?”? ?? ????
The only halachic guidelines when the “short Shemoneh Esrei” or ?????? ????? ,(i.e. the Shatz says it before the tzibbur through kedusha) is permitted as practiced today I can find in the classic Poskim is from ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????, ?????? ?”???? ???” ?? ???? ???? ???? ?”????”, ???? ????? “????…” ??? ????. ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??, ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? “????” ?”????” ?”?????”. ???? ?? ???? “??? ????” ???? ????? “???”, ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? and is in reference to someone who missed minyan and says the beginning of his own ??”? out loud. What is common in workplaces, simchas, and some yeshivas where the shatz says the first 3 bearchas out loud and then everyone starts the ??”? seems to be a fairly recent innovation and is most probably discussed by contemporary poskim which I do not have at home.
Ben Torah, Are you?”? on a desert island, in a hospital,incarcerated ? How did you earn that title if you cannot look up an Halacho that you should have learned. Here is an address MB 52:7. Sorry I dont have a click & paste MB. But here is the ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?
Ben Torah !! Maybe if you were not so busy with trivia (Hunagrian words) you would have time to look up an Halocha in the original or ask a competent Rav.
A bit off the topic but it is definitely pertinent especially for people like BP Totty who are pros at falling behind / starting late.
?”? ??? ?? ????? ???? …. ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?”? ?”? ?..
???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ? …….??????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? (? ? ?????? ?????? “??????”) ??????? ??? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? “????? ?????” ?? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????. ???? ??
Shloimies Shver wrote IF YOU CANNOT SAY FROM ???? ??? BEFORE AMIDA FORGET ????? ?????? … this applies only to Shachris ????? ????? ?????? at Maariv is not critical
see SA 236:2 “??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? – ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???????”
?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? (??”? ??”?). ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ‘???? ?’ ????? ??? ????’ ?’???? ??????’ – ???? ??, ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? (??). ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??, ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ‘????’ ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? – ????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???????. ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ??????, ????? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??”? ???? ????
Trying….. For more references on Beginning before the Zman Tefillah finishing after see ???? ?????? ???? ???”? … ????
???? ?”? ??? ? NOTES 125-127
Shloimies Shver wrote re halachic guidelines when the “short Shemoneh Esrei” (i.e. the Shatz says it before the tzibbur through kedusha) is permitted? What is common in workplaces, simchas, and some yeshivas where the shatz says the first 3 bearchas out loud and then everyone starts the ??”? seems to be a fairly recent innovation and is most probably discussed by contemporary poskim which I do not have at home.
Shver Leben you goofed big time!! You missed a Seif in Shulchan Aruch. You were refering to ????? ??? at Shachris. The abridged amida in Chayeh Adam is a ??? ???? no other Poskim mention it.
Ben Torah I assume is able to read the Mechaber in its original,
BTW I will let you in on a secret the Shulchan is very easily available.
???? ???? ????? ???? ???.?. ?? ???? ????? – ??????
????. ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????:’???’ ?-‘????’ ????? ????? ?????? “??? ?????”, ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????.???: ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??. ??? ??????. ????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ?.
???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ? ??? ??????? ????? ???, ???? ???? ??????, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ‘????’, ????? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ‘??? ?????’ ?????? ?????? ???????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ‘??? ????’, ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ‘???’ ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ????? ??”? (??? ??? ?????”?). ???? ?????”? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ????, ??? ??? ?????? ????.
???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ‘???’, ??? ????????? ???? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ‘???’, ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??”?, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ‘???’, ??????? ?? ?????? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ??????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ??”?, ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ‘???’, ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????
The consensus of poskim is That is to be done only in time of great need. Piskei Teshuvos brings from ???”? ?’ ?????? ????? ??”? that the practice in some Yeshivos to do a Short Mincha should be discouraged.
Others say since people do not daven at the same speed, one may start even later than the shatz.[Igros Moshe O.C. 3:4. See Halichos Shlomo Tefilla 8:footnote 8.] Some say one may even start davening if the tzibur is up to magen avraham and others say most of the shemonei esrei should be undavened by the tzibur before starting shemonei esrei.[Horav Yisroel Belsky zt”l, see Oz Nedberu 8:41:4, Yugel Yaakov page 246.] One who did not start shemonei esrei together with the tzibur but finished with the tzibur is considered to have davened that tefilla with a minyan.[Pri Megadim Eishel Avraham 109:2, Mishnah Berurah 66:35, Vayivorech Dovid 1:22:4.] [Eishel Avraham Butchatch ibid. Oz Nedberu 4:16, Yalkut Yosef 1:page 145:9.] [Elya Rabbah 66:13, Eretz Tzvi 2:6, Mishnah Berurah 66:35, Orchos Rabbeinu 1:159:page 51.]
Under no circumstances may one interrupt his S”E to say Kedusha, UNLESS he is holding in the place where Kedusha should actually be said [i.e., he just finished the second bracha of the Amidah], or he is holding in Elokai Netzor (in the latter case, he should interrupt to answer “Kadosh” and “Baruch” and, according to SOME opinions, also “Yimloch”).
See here regarding skipping: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/257544/halachically-speaking-tefilla-btzibur.html
NOTE: One who came late may NOT start S”E unless he knows that he will be able to reach Elokai Netzor by the time that the chazzan reaches Kedusha. The only exception to this is where he will miss zman tefilla.
See Mishnah Berurah 109:2 and Beiur Halachah, s.v. ha-nichnas.
Mishnah Berurah 109:14; Aruch ha-Shulchan 109:11-12.
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