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Hi,
I am a baal teshuva, who is very split in terms of chumras that I take on and do not take on between Modern Orthodox, and Bais Yaakov. I started keeping shabbos through ncsy, then after two years of being in ncsy, I went on an all girls summer program in E”Y for six weeks, I really liked it because the program had a centrist hashkafa, and there was a great mix of Bais Yaakov girls and Public School girls and a bunch of girls in between, and I really enjoyed it.
The day after I got home from the program, I decided that for 12th grade that I would attend one of the local bais yaakov schools in my community for that year. Baruch Hashem, I got accepted there because it was certainly better than being in public school, but that is where I started having issues with adjusting to the idea of feeling like a hashkafa was being pushed on me (even though I had special permission to do ncsy, but I felt weird doing ncsy when none of my classmates were allowed to, so I only went to a few events last year), which is probably one of the biggest problems people seem to talk about in chinuch, not that I really know anything about that.
Someone offered to find a way to switch to the modern orthodox high school, but at that point, I already made a bunch of amazing friends and I didn’t want to just leave a school and start in the middle of the year in another school when my only problems were the fact that I wasn’t hashkafically ready to go to that school, yet would have been the frummie in the modern orthodox school. I then ended up graduating that school.
And this year, I started off in a more bais yaakov type seminary, but I wasn’t prepared for the hashkafic culture shock that I experienced at the previous school again, so I ended up leaving after two months for a bunch of reasons, however I think the root cause of most of the reasons had to do with the hashkafic culture shock.
I am currently in a modern orthodox seminary (it was the last school on my list before packing my bags to go back home), and I am also experiencing a ton of culture shock, because on one hand, I think the internet can be used for good reasons, but on the other hand, I am the only girl here who covers her legs, and I feel like the only reason I wear the same skirt 3-4 times a week is because it is religious denim and therefore allows me to blend in more, which is somewhat important when one’s hashkafa is significantly beyond the seminary she is in, and I also wear gym shoes, and not as much black as I did before so that people don’t associate me with the more chareidi community (I am having shock about certain hashkafic values within the classroom setting).
Overall, its an amazing school, and I am becoming an expert at dealing with culture shock… Baruch Hashem I have had many opportunities to do such amazing and different experiences!
But the thing is that I have decided to make aliyah and I want to do sherut leumi next year, but I don’t know whether to go through Bat Ami, or Agudah. Nobody really knows how to advise me because I tend to experience culture shock whenever I am doing something that involves me leaving my mothers house from a Jewish perspective.
Bat Ami is the modern orthodox sherut leumi organization, and Agudah is Chareidi. I know that bat ami has a website, but does anyone have any information on how to contact Agudah? Also, do you think I should go through Bat Ami or Agudah? I am at a loss as to what to do and I have been trying to answer that question for myself for the past month.
Thanks!
Snowbunny3318
paragraphed, by 95
What community do you wish to be part of? When it comes to which seminary you attend, that seems to matter more than what yeshiva guys attend, as far as shidduchim are concerned.
I encourage the Dati Leumi/Modern Orthodox approach, but I am nogea b’davar obviously. if you’re familiar with my postings.
You have to ask yourself which community you want to become part of.
I don’t have any advice regarding your question, but I wanted to share something I’ve learned: people are very resistant to reading long paragraphs (and sentences for that matter). Splitting your post into multiple paragraphs would probably inspire more people to read you post, resulting in more or better feedback.
One thing to keep in mind regarding the charedi/dati leumi decision is that the dati leumi community is very diverse, including very nationalistic people and very moderate people, very MO people and pretty charedi people (chardalim), with everything in between.
Regardless, hatzlachah with your decision! 🙂
From the way you describe yourself there are many seminaries that seem like they could have been right for you. In even the most left of the MO seminaries there are still mixes where you will find every kind of girl. Even if not, around winter vacation the girls begin changing and you’ll see some girls becoming more lax with the rules and you’ll see others who start to wear the four inches below the knee skirts.
I went to a very MO seminary and I remember whenever the girls would play non jewish music they would always ask everyone in the room if they were okay listening to non jewish music.
You never have to be like everyone else. Work on making the experience positive for yourself and you’ll see that there is so much to gain. Whether the other girls are too modern or too chumradik for your taste, you’ll see that when you start respecting them for who they are as people, instead of judging them, you will gain respect and friendship. My closest friends range from the most frum chassidish, to almost ‘greasy’ yeshivish, to not observant, and if you’re able to see the character inside, you can relate to everyone. I also knew barely anything about the pop culture (I lacked the interest) yet my friends were of the most secular ones in the seminary. You don’t have to know the background behind every conversation to be able to relate to the other girls.
You sound like you’ve been working hard to find a hashkafa and community where Judaism can work for you. But you also sound a little closeminded. Try to gain the good parts the seminary and the girls have to offer you instead of focusing on the bad. Also, I bet if you ask, the teachers will give you a halachik source for why they cover their hair as much (as little?) as they do.
Why do you want to do sherut leumi? Because you love the land and want to give everything to your people or because you want to move to israel and if you do you have to do sherut leumi?
Unless it’s because you love the land and want to do as much as you can for am yisrael, if you wait until you’re 19 to make aliya, you don’t have to serve. Regarding the question between bat ami and agudah I would think the only difference is the community where they set you up.
I’m afraid I don’t really have any useful advice. However, let me assure you you’re not the only one stuck in this difficult position of not being quite chareidi and not quite MO.
As for me, my wife is strictly chareidi and I myself am more MOish. When we got married I was more of the chassidishe BT type – but it’s just not my thing. I’m more comfortable/stable like this. But it does put me also in this impossible situation, which is very difficult in Gateshead in particular.
What is the point with wasting your life on sherut leumi and putting yourself into many undesireable situations? Learn in a sem until you get married. Leave the “burden” to the Israelis. That’s what they live for and it just wouldn’t be right to take that away from them.
Sherut leumi is too complicated. Just join the army.
I also have very close friends in both camps, but when all is said, join the Modern Orthodox, because they are open and won’t attack the right wing, whereas the right wing are claustrophobic will openly attack the Modern Orthodox.
These attacks are Sinas Chinom & are simply unacceptable.
The Modern Orthodox will respect you, whereas the Right Wing will blow up any issue where you have the slightest divergence from them.
I don’t know much about the Agudah program, but my sister is now in her second year of the Bat Ami program and different schools I have taught in have had Bnot Sheirut from Bat Ami as well. From what I’ve gathered there are a wide range of girls in the program and you should be able to find a group that you’ll be comfortable with.
As far as your concern about rooming, my sister wasn’t happy with the first apartment she was assigned to last year and her advisor was very accommodating in finding her a situation she was more comfortable with. This year she met a family with whom she preferred to board and Bat Ami was fine with her doing that. So you don’t have to worry that apartment assignments are set in stone (as they may have been in your seminaries; I know mine was pretty rigid in that regard).
On a more personal note–Yasher koach! From firsthand experience, the decisions you’ve been making these past few years were not easy ones, and I’m impressed by your self-awareness, self-assurance, and maturity. You seem to be handling the culture shocks on both ends with a good deal more aplomb than I did when in high school and sem. Hatzlacha raba on whichever paths you choose, both next year and in the future.
I think that the poster who asked what the goal is behind Sherut Leumi was asking a good question. Is there a reason you would rather do that then continue your education?
I am asking because from what I hear, unless I am reading you wrong (if I am, I apologize), Peninim has a seminary that sounds as though it might be right up your alley. I have a niece who also does not fit a real mold, she is now at this sem and she is thrilled. She is not typical Beis Yaakov, yet MO is not for her, either. They are very accepting, very open-minded, very encouraging of questions.
If you think this might interest you, post me back and I will ask my SIL for info.
Whatever your decision, may you have much hatzlachah!!
To 147:
I am sorry, but your post makes you sound just like those whom you are slamming – claustrophobic, sinas chinam, etc.
Are there people like that in the “right wing” (btw, how are you defining that?)? I’m sure that, however defined, there are. There are also people like that who are Modern Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Mizrachi, Chardal, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, Litvish, Chassidish, Yeshivish, and any other label you can come up with.
Snowbunny, I am wondering if you ever thought of a seminary for BTs, which may be out of the box you’ve been thinking of, but I know that Aish HaTorah has a very good seminary for women. Most of the girls are newish BTs but they have a high commitment and the learning is awesome and I’m sure the tuition is much lower than what you’ve mentioned here. Your background sounds similar to some of the girls who have gone there, but you’re obviously more advanced. You could contact Aish HaTorah or the women’s branch itself – known as Eyaht. Amazing place!!!
P.S. Maybe even a place like Neve has classes for people advanced in their yiddishkeit but looking for more learning. I’m not sure of their policies on tuition and such, but it might be worth thinking about a place like one of these to continue your education rather than a straight-out BY seminary.
Dear SB3318,
From one BT to another. When I was your age I was attached to the idea of a schedule. Presumably you’re prepared to go off schedule and travel to Israel to do basically “Army Service”. Whether it’s SL or bonafide “Army Service”, according to some really great personalities it’s not the right thing for a girl. It doesn’t have to do with whom you’re going to marry. Girls have their thing to do in Yiddishkeit and boys have their thing. This is what I’ve learned after so many years of learning about Judaism. This is not an obvious thing.
In terms of being supported by parents I had to take out student loans. There’s nothing wrong with that. Whatever option you take should be a safe one. I would say that because you don’t know what kind of life you’re opting for – supporting your future family either partially or entirely – you should figure this into your plans as well.
When I was your age I took this into account. Maybe you can take student loans and attend Touro in Israel if Israel is the goal. I know if you make Aliyah now you’ll get various kinds of support from the Govt. – they’ll provide free college level language -tutoring at Israeli colleges – you have to have graduated highschool. You might end up hanging out with less observant people but if you keep your mind on the goal then you can end up with a degree where you can work in Israel. By making Aliyah now you’ll be able to work which means being able to support yourself somewhat. A friend of mine found work at the restaurants.
If you’re not interested in working at all then you could try the Chabad School in Tsfat – Machon Alta.
Again, I would encourage your making Aliya now in order to force yourself to integrate into Israeli society and then you’ll truly see if it’s what you need. You can come back to America anytime. They won’t stop you…
Good Luck.
–>Forgot the most important thing –>Make sure you have a Rabbi or Rebbitzen guiding you – this way you’ll have a blessing in whatever you decide. I would recommend Rabbi Wallerstein because he has a school in Brooklyn and he’s also pro-Israel – he’ll know how to guide you. You will probably meet the most amazing people at his school – Ateret Naava. Please check into it.
Prithee get thee a Rabbi.
Snowbunny, you sound like such a special person! I wish I could get to know you – really! It is unclear from your post (or at least I didn’t “chap” it) – are you currently in EY or in the US?
Please forgive me if giving outright advice seems forward of me, I am only doing it because I care: If you are here in EY now, and you can find a Rav here who can guide you, I think it might make your life and your decision-making much easier. There are Rabbonim like R’ Zecharya Greenwald and R’ Meisels who are very caring people and who have experience with a very broad spectrum of girls (so you won’t have to feel that they might box you in). Their numbers can be found in any Yerushalayim phone book and probably in the Newcomers Guide, as well.
If helping and giving are what you are looking for in Sherut Leumi, there are plenty of places like Ezer MiZion, Yad Sarah and Zichron Menachem who are happy to get volunteers. As far as room and board, there are also families who have girls board with them in exchange for help with the kids, something that might also have the added advantage of getting an “inside look.”
Again, you sound like a very special person who has a tremendous amount of potential. May Hashem bless you with hatzlachah in all you do!!
SB – I’ll be honest, while it is very admirable to want to do chesed, your first priority should be to learn as much as possible now before you begin to look into getting married. This is the time to focus as much as possible on growing and deciding what your derech in life is going to be – MO or Chareidi or somewhere in between. You will not have the opportunity to engage in full-time learning after that. I see the difference between myself and my siblings, who are also BT – I came back before I got married and came to EY and learned for 2 years before I looked into shidduchim. They were fortunate in that their husbands and children also came back together, but they never had more time than the shiurim given in their neighborhoods, which is great but all of their growth had to be basically self-impelled.
Chesed is a lifelong obligation and you will be doing tremendous amounts of that after marriage, with husband and future children, iy”H. I don’t think you need focus on that as your growth point right now at your age. Think now about yourself first (chesed starts at home).
Just as a last note, I really suggest looking into something like Eyaht or Neve because it can give you a very strong time of learning and the tuition is definitely not what a typical BY would cost. In some cases it may be optional, but you have to call and find out. Aish HaTorah can give you the phone and location info for Eyaht.
I think it would be sensible to speak to representatives from both parties and see which suits your needs better…
and generally, in life people often don’t “fit” 100%, you need to weigh out which party has more pros than cons – and talk it over with someone you trust to be objective.
I have no ideal who Rabbi Meisels is, but I know that Eyaht is run by Rebbetzin Dena Weinberg, who is the almanah of HaRav Noach Weinberg, zt”l. They are definitely available to discuss tuition, etc. It is not a typical seminary setting, but may give you something you need. When I was there, I found that they had time off and I was able to go to families and to chesed there, especially on Erev Shabbos.
Can you please explain to those of us who are not in the know what is Sherut Leumi?
Snowbunny, please don’t make any decisions yet. Nechoma is right that THIS is the time you have to learn, grow and build yourself.
I just spoke to one of my sisters-in-law who is Rabbi Zev Leff’s daughter. She will be more than happy to put you in contact with her father, who teaches in Pninim and knows Rabbi Meisels very well. She cannot promise to what extent he will be able to help you, but he is a wonderful, warm person and a very good contact who will do what he can. They also have girls for Shabbos almost every week.
Mods, please give snowbunny3318 my personal email so that she can contact me, and I can give her my SIL’s name, phone number and other information.
Sherut Leumi is national service. It is most often performed by young ladies after they graduate high school, in lieu of going into the army. I think the girls can be a “bat sherut” up to three years; my middle daughter is in her second year.
The jobs can be almost anything – working in hospitals or old age homes, in schools, working with special needs kids, working in service organizations, working in museums and historic sites, etc.
While working the girls are given a place to live (usually an apartment with other girls) and a small salary.
Keep in mind that once a girl gets her exemption from the army, she does not have to do sherut leumi. It’s entirely voluntary.
Thank you Takah and Snowbunny for explaining it to me.
Once you obtain a teudat oleh, I believe you are eligible for Kupat Cholim coverage, which covers pre-existing conditions. (The quality of care is another story – choose your kupat cholim carefully.) You probably would also get assistance for shana bet in a place like Michlala, which might suit your needs.
Be VERY careful before committing to citizenship in the state of Israel. Know your rights, and know your responsibilities.
Having never been to Israel i was not aware of what this was.
The reason I mentioned Michlala is that it has some sort of accreditation, so your tuition subsidy might work there. Perhaps there are other schools in the same category.
147- claims of sinas chinam against people fighting for torah is a shtus.
Hi Snowbunny!
I am so sorry, I did not see that the mods can’t give you my information.
Rabbi Leff lives in Moshav Mattityahu. He is the Rav there, my SIL lives there, too.
Mods, can I give you the info and you will pass it on to Snowbunny? Or is there some secure place I can post it? I just do not feel comfortable posting my SIL’s information on the Internet.
I hear, snowbunny. So let’s do this. I’ll give you a clue so you can look up my SIL’s number in either the Newcomer’s Guide or the Madrich HaChareidi. It’s not like she’s not listed or anything, I’m just nervous about info on the Internet. So here goes:
Her last name in gematriya is 2-200-10-10-50-60. They are the only ones with that last name in Moshav Mattityahu. You can tell her that her SIL suggested you call. I already spoke to her about this sweet seminary girl I met online!!
If you do speak to her, please ask her for my phone number; I would love to say hi to you in person!
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