Sheva Brochos

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  • #1414915

    yid18
    Participant

    Would you rather go to dairy or fleishig sheva brochos?

    #1414965

    Joseph
    Participant

    A seudas mitzvah should be fleishigs.

    #1414996

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “A seudas mitzvah should be fleishigs.”

    I was not aware a sheva berachos was a seudas mitzvah. Is it?

    #1415150

    M
    Participant

    I think Joseph’s post here (sorry Joseph!) highlights one of weaknesses of the CF and similar discussions elsewhere. In particular, people tend to post essentially made-up things.

    Perhaps Joseph could have written something more thoughtful along the following lines. Although a braisa in arvei pesachim states that אין שמחה אלא בבשר ויין, that is already qualified as being only בזמן בית המקדש (ועכשיו שאין בית המקדש קיים, אין שמחה אלא ביין are the words in the continuation). Even on shabbos, which you probably would also call a seudas mitzvah the Shulchan Aruch HaRav (242,2) wrote that there’s no chiyuv to have meat if one does not like meet.

    The Maharam Shik (AH 89:2) actually writes that one is actually chayav in basar at a seudas mitzvah, but it’s not clear that this is universally accepted. In fact by a bris milah, which most probably believe constitutes a seudas mitzvah, it seems that many kehilose had takanose that they davka not be fleishig, and only include fish, because of the high costs. Of course if there was a real chiyuv to have meat such takanose would have been meaningless.

    Of course Joseph can offer other perspectives, but blankly stating “A seudas mitzvah should be fleishigs.” doesn’t really contribute anything to the discussion. Indeed yid18 was just asking what people would prefer. For the record, if it’s at dinner time I’d probably prefer fleishig, unless I had had many fleishig meals that week in which case I might prefer milchigs.

    #1415160

    Joseph
    Participant

    M, if not for my comment, we wouldn’t be having this informative discussion — including your informative post! Instead we’d have been having a mostly vain discussion whether you and others personally prefer, as a matter of taste, milichigs or fleishigs.

    #1415162

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    yid18: It depends on a few factors. Is it a Sheva Brochos Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner? One of my children specifically asked for a milchigs sheva brochos dinner as he already had fleishigs for 4 days in a row.

    Joepsh: While I understand the concept of ein simcha elah b’basar u’vayayin, I have have seen milchigs at a seudas bris, bar mitzvah, sheva brochos and heard about a chasuna where the chosson and kallah preferred milchigs.

    #1415161

    M
    Participant

    And here’s a really solid discussion of the sugya: sorry link removed

    Agav, there are several interesting points about this discussion: (1) In his opinion, a ideally a bris milah should davka real meat, and not just chicken. (2) He concludes that lma’aseh it’s fine to have a milchig bris. (3) He quotes the tshuvose chasam sofer (OC 69) who states kdavar pashut that one can make a milchig bris, and even on shabbos.

    #1415177

    funnybone
    Participant

    I prefer fleishigs.

    #1416044

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I suspect that whenever the minhag of serving meat evolved, the state of knowledge regarding nutrition and the adverse health effects of most meat were unknown. If the underlying notion is hudur mitzvah and serving meat at one time was considered a sign of respect, etc. the times have changed. The cost/lb of fresh fish (not the bottom feeders served in various forms as “gefilte” fish and larded with lots of sugar) is considerably higher than most meats and nutritionally an order of magnitude better. The majority of yidden today (especially the younger generation) would much prefer a sincha with lots of fresh fish and salads (and perhaps chicken) rather than the traditional red meats, salty and fatty fish, starchy kugels etc.

    #1416153

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Maybe women would prefer fish; men would prefer meat (ok they would like sushi). The OP though was talking about dairy which I (and my family) take to mean baked ziti, eggplant parmesan, penne ala vodka.

    We also tend to forget that during the week of “sheva brochos”, anytime the chosson and kallah eat a meal with 10 men (and a panim chadoshos) they can recite sheva brochos. So if I invite 10 neighbors for a pancake/waffle/french toast breakfast we can recite sheva brochos.

    #1416333

    streekgeek
    Participant

    1 vote for fleishigs especially if its in the evening.
    Maybe serve salads and other parve options for those that are fleishig-phobic.

    #1416512

    M
    Participant

    I know this is an aside, but I think what GH meant was that younger people today, perhaps moreso the educated crowd, are more conscious of food choices.

    Eating at a massive wedding shmorg an hour before eating a full-size wedding dinner? Serving massive plates of oil-flowing potato kugel and cholent at your shul kiddush, and then going home to eat a massive shabbos lunch whose only vegetables are the the potatoes and onions in yet another cholent? Want to give your kids candy for answering a dozen parsha questions, then potato chips at pirchei and pizza and soda at avos ubanim? All while implicitly discouraging exercise? These are fine choices (it’s a free country!), but don’t be surprised if you find high rates of diabetes, heart problems, and teeth decay that are typically associated with the poorest populations.

    #1416526

    Joseph
    Participant

    M, yet the frum community, despite all the eating you fault it for, does not suffer the same rate of negative health issues as the poorest populations for the conditions you mentioned.

    #1416711

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, the source for your health claim for frum people? And, you were trolling , not facilitating a discussion.

    #1416718

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, why haven’t you questioned M’s negative health insinuation, made first, regarding the state of frum health?

    #1416734

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “rates of diabetes, heart problems, and teeth decay ”

    Health professionals who service the frum population can answer this. All else, is speculation.

    #1416738

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, you didn’t answer my question
    All you did was whine

    #1416768

    TheMir
    Participant

    Wine & dine is fine.

    #1416782

    funnybone
    Participant

    I find it shocking that the CR has been hijacked by peoole who just want to speak. Someone wants to know our orederence for a sheva brachos and you are on your condescending high horse giving medical/diet advice??!!

    #1416819

    M
    Participant

    At first I had the same reaction to Joseph, hey, did you just make that up?, but realized that I also did the exact same thing! About the tooth decay, a good friend works as a dentist in Lakewood and told me how much tooth decay he sees, and how much worse his patients’ teeth are than kids he sees in goyish communities. About the diabetes etc, I guess I don’t actually know that, but I do see relatively high numbers of grossly obese people when I visit Passaic, Lakewood, Brooklyn, Monsey than I do in other communities. But I guess we should ask someone that works as a health professional in that population who can tell us more. Anyone here?

    #1416841

    Joseph
    Participant

    M, your unsupported assertion is why I challenged it. 🙂 If you’d have sourced it reliably I’d have looked into the claim.

    #1416854

    M
    Participant

    I hear that. Of course I trust my good friend but I guess there’s no reason you should since you’d don’t even know me, let alone this friend.

    And my anecdotal observations are just that – anecdotal. I guess you don’t see higher rates of obesity among chareidi communities than among other ones, so obviously I can’t disagree with that if that’s what you see.

    #1416890

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, I find it laughable when you get upset about unsupported challenes as you do it routinely. You still haven’t sourced your frum health claim. Either source it or admit that you mare it up

    #1416898

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’m glad to have helped get you laughing, LC.

    #1417098

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The U.S. Public Health Service does not compille data by religious affiliation or by zip codes that can be correlated with heimeshe communities Howeve, the The Israel Health Ministry has done exactlly those types of studies and reported in 2015 that Chareidim in general, and men in particular, are seven times more likely to be obese than the rest of Israelis. The Ministry noted, “The chareidi lifestyle focuses on the dinner table… At the same time, they don’t engage in any physical exercise.” Other factors cited inluded inter alia, “the absence of nutritional and practical health education in chareidi schools and the much higher rates of poverty of many within this community, which leads to consumption of cheaper, simple carbohydrate-based foods (such as potatoes, pasta, rice, and sugar) combined with high sodium foods and high-fat meat, rather than more expensive complex carbohydrates and protein-rich foods….”
    Obviously, Joe knows better than the health experts in the frumcommuniy, along with many promient rabbunim, who have recognized that poor nutrition is among the most critical problems facing the frum tzibur (and one of the mot easily solved).

    #1417106

    Joseph
    Participant

    Zionist ministries are not, by any means, frum health experts. Their anti-frum bias is represented in anything they produce. Even if you accurately quote them, their opinions must be taken with, pardon the pun, a mouthful of salt.

    #1417759

    M
    Participant

    Joseph, there is a general principal of חזקה אומן לא מרע אומנותיה. Do you think that the health ministries would completely make up false (and easily falsifiable) data? What would they gain by saying that the chareidi population has significant obesity issues compared with that of the general population? You might now know that until last week the health ministry was run by Ya’acov Litzman, an exceptionally competent minister who happens to also be chareidi. Since taking office, Litzman worked very hard to raise awareness of food health, including cutting junk food in schools.

    #1417787

    M
    Participant

    And here’s a quote from Litzman in an article in Hamodia (MSM?) less than a year ago: “In the past, Rabbi Litzman said that among the biggest “victims” of junk food was the chareidi public. Children are often “treated” to snacks at Talmud Torahs or shuls after they participate in learning sessions, and that practice needed to stop, or at least to be adjusted in order to prompt children to eat more healthily.”

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