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Some people blame the Freezer for the Shidduch Crisis. Yes its true, that it delays the boys for four months.
But why did they wait to come to Lakewood only at age 22.5 or at age 23?
Why do Bachurim in EY & Europe start Shidduchim at age 20, 21, and do not have a crisis, while the American boys go to EY only at age 21, Shteig around until 22.5 and do cause a crisis?
The blame should be put on the boys, and their parents. No one forced them to wait until they are 23!
Put the blame on them, and not on the straw that breaks the camels back!
Lman Bnos Yisroel (Libbi)Libbi: After nearly a hundred threads on the so-called “shidduch crisis” which have probably generated several thousand postings about the point you are trying to make regarding when/how/who bochurim start dating perhaps clarify “whats NEW”?? The frum tzibur is growing at its fastest rate in recent history, we seem to hear about new Simcha halls opening in Brooklyn and Lakewood several times a year and B’H more young men and women are meeting directly without the pressure of arranged shidduchim. There is no “crisis” driven by the questionable “facts” you post. . FAKE NEWs!! Those who stoke the flames of these fires which sadly impose even more stress on those seeking their beschert are likely to get burned themselves.
one of the most misunderstood rules is that of the “freezer”. First it is not every yeshiva in Lakewood only BMG. Many bochrim return from 1 -3 years in EY and yes are forced into the freezer for 4 months but that does not cause the crisis. If your “‘yankel” is 22 or 23 he does not have to wait to be accepted into BMG before starting to date. If already in middle of a shidduch when the zman starts he can avoid the freezer to see if that shidduch comes to fruition.Are you also going to sound off about Chafetz Chayim in Queens where most boys dont start until they are 25..
You have it wrong the shidduch crisis is mainly women!
Get over it.
The real crisis today is getting engaged and staying engaged. Getting married and staying married. The age-gap hoax where you were able to shake down a few gullible gevirim, has run its course. Time to move on to a new made-up crisis.There’s a lot of blame on the men! Y? Y can’t the girls form together and say we are not dating guys unless we are the same age. As much as you say that’s not practical so too is making guys date earlier. Do they think we’re bored and don’t wasn’t to settle down? Hashem created us in a way that we want to get married not continuing to delay marriage unless it’s necessary. So if they have a problem I understand that all of klal Yisrael should be working on fixing it but don’t point the blame game on us. It’s rude and not the proper way of asking us men to help you ladies.
age gap as the primary issue is provable. those who doubt it are innumerate and should get a refund on their elementary education if they had one.
Hi,
Hate to say this but your rambles are completely nonsensical. TThe fact that many people are getting married has absolutely nothing to do with the FACT that the age gap causes an unevenness with many more girls than boys being unable to get married.I am not a gevir though I truly believe in the age gap. It is far from a hoax and clearly you are not one of the thousands of women in this position. Staying married has no bearing on this serious issue of uneven numbers in the dating process.
Hi,
Hate to say this but your rambles are completely nonsensical. The fact that many people are getting married has absolutely nothing to do with the FACT that the age gap causes an unevenness with many more girls than boys being unable to get married.The problem is that there are too FEW posts regarding the shidduch crisis. We have set up a system where a terrifying number of Bnos Yisrael are nearing 40 v’ein potzeh peh umitzaftzeif, except a few yechidim, such as Libbi.
What percentage of Neilah Drashos in our shuls and yeshivos addressed this crisis? I’d say it’s close to zero. Why is that?
Why are people setting up tehillim groups to help their daughters get married but at the same time they are delaying their own sons (or sending their sons to yeshivos that encourage or force delay) from getting married?
How can you daven to Hashem, “Please Hashem help my daughter get married,” while preventing other girls from getting married?
Are- B”H our community has the girls on the front burner so I don’t see it being hushed.
In response to your second comment, I wouldn’t want a 21 year old boy for my daughter any more than I would want a 15 year old girl for my sons.Are roster: You asked
“What percentage of Neilah Drashos in our shuls and yeshivos addressed this crisis? I’d say it’s close to zero. Why is that? Because IMHO most rabbanim concentrate on the issue of teshuva, not crisis in klal yisroel.
Why are people setting up tehillim groups to help their daughters get married but at the same time they are delaying their own sons (or sending their sons to yeshivos that encourage or force delay) from getting married? I have children of marriageable age of both genders. I am not delaying my sons; I did not believe that my sons were emotionally or financially ready before the age of 23 to start shidduchim. IMHO one of the biggest issues we have is this horrible mindset that if a girl is not married by 22 she is an “old maid”. Are boys 23 or 24 turning down shidduchim with girls 22 and 23 or is it their parents who are rejecting them?
“The problem is that there are too FEW posts regarding the shidduch crisis”
Yup….and the more you traumatize those bnos yisroel who may not yet have found their beschert by this seemingly nonstop hysteria, the more likely you will have only worsened their situation. Pushing more bochurim to marry at a younger age will certainly do wonders for the stability and longevity of marriages.Boys are mature enough at 21. Really 21 is the oldest age, the proper age is 18-21 for shidduchim.
What magically makes them so much more mature at 23? Is there something magical happening in those 2 years? I think parents are holding back their sons from marriage which is not a good thing.wow couldnt have said it better. So right.
bsharg2… We have debated this issue ad nauseum here in the CR. Obviously, it depends on the individuals. In MOST cases, a young man is more mature and better equipped to take on the responsibilities of marriage and family with a few more years of life experience. Obviously, some are ready at 18-19 and others not until their later 20s. Having a year or two of work experience or grad school also better equips them to support a family (unless they have affluent parents). Finally, maybe its not the parents but the bochurim themselves who may not feel they are ready.
bsharg2: who knows my children better ME or YOU??????? You think 21 is the oldest age? I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that my sons were not ready for marriage at 21. Not only that but neither was I. and yes I did gain some maturity between 21 and 23 when I started my shidduch odyssey. Part of that maturity came as my friends started to get married at that time so i dont agree that 21 is the the time they are mature or should be the oldest age.
Fine, you guys disagree with Chazal. You think that they when they said that you are chiyuv misa if you delay past 19 they were being old-fashioned. You also believe immaturity is hetter to delay (unlike the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Leib Steinman and the Chida [the Chida adds “don’t say such kulos regarding something that your Olam Haba depends on).
You also believe that you are allowed to delay past 19 for financial reasons (unlike the Chofetz Chaim [Sefer Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25], Rabbi Chaim Berlin [Even Haezer, siman 3], Rav Chaim Palachi [Tochachas Chaim], Rav Hillel Kalimaeir [Sefer Eis Laasos]). You also believe that your son learning in Yeshiva somehow makes him more financially secure. I still must ask you: If you would know that the old way for YOUR OWN DAUGHTER TO EVER GET MARRIED would be for your son to start young, would you still delay your son. Or would you realize that your initial assumption — that your son isn’t “ready” — is based on no evidence and isn’t worth your daughter remaining an Aguna.
Yet, when it comes to someone else’s daughter you are quite eager to posit any possible boich sevara to jeopardize her chances from ever getting married.
Now, regarding the claim that we are scaring bnos yisrael, that is incorrect for two reasons. First, that is akin to claiming that we shouldn’t advertise against smoking or obesity because we are scaring people. Second – and this is the essential point – girls aren’t scared by the numbers. They are scared by the fact that their phones are silent. WE ARE MERELY PROVIDING AN EXPLANATION FOR WHY THAT’S THE CASE! True, there are some girls – i.e., daughters of Roshei Yeshiva – whose have plenty of names. This information obviously doesn’t scare them, because the fact is that they are getting plenty of names, so they realize that they are the exception to the rule.
Listen, we all know many single women in their forties. We all know many of them. We knew this for a very long time, way before Libbi. This info is was always very frightening to all. Thanks to Libbi, we at least know why that happened. AND WE KNOW HOW WE CAN AND MUST RESOLVE IT.
Are Roster:
Thanks for telling all the young men and women (and their parents) here that they should ignore what they know about themselves and their children and just get married. I’m sure they appreciate some comic relief and will immediately run out and agree to the first shidduch that comes along. Or perhaps (to quote a revered former First Lady) just say NO to the fearmongers of the shidduch crisis.are roster: since i dont know you so i dont ask you my shailos. I have a rov who i consult regularly to help me navigate through these murky waters.(and none of his sons got married before the age of 23).
stop calling single girls agunas! Like they need your curses!?
Are Roster,
As was pointed out to you in the last shidduch crisis thread, the American Gedolim do not agree with you. Yes, we know you think they are idiots and you know better but you are going to have to come up with something better if you want to persuade people.No American Gadol is on the level of Rav Elyashiv, Rav CChaim Kanievsky, Rav Shmuel Aurbach or Rav Aharon Leib, so it’s irrelevant what Americans hold. The Novominsker Rebbe publicly said that we should shudder at arguing with Rav Chaim. I challenge you to please find me one Rav who paskins issue vheter who wrote that a boy who is yitzro misgaber alav or has no fear of insufficient food is allowed to delay, who says that Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch were mistaken when they held that once it’s yitzro misgaber alav you may not delay.
The word Aguna for a girl who is having trouble finding a shidduch is found in Kidushin Daf 41 in Tosafos and Midrash Rabbah Achrei Mos. Agav, the Midrash says that Nadav and Avihu died for making Agunos.
Are Roster Thank you for quoting the chazon ish (reply 0830627) who was 27 when he married as was Reb Moshe Feinstein. Also we dont play the my gadol is not on the same level as yours.
I want to thank everyone for telling me I’m a terrible person who’s chayiv misa. (I’m 23 and started shidduchim a month ago)
Now lets move on in life.
But I do have a couple of solutions 🙂
father’s should be mekadesh their daughters as ketanos,
edited
Mattier pelegesh,
Shut down Mir EY, Brisk, Yagdil, Rav Tzvi Kaplan,
Allow multiple wives,
Have coed schools,
Start shidduch yomi, after you do the daf you go on a date, than we can have 1 big chasuna in each country in the world.Or…
Have emunah in hashem, and believe that the rabonim that created the ways of America weren’t idiots and apikorsim, they knew every chazal and posek that you can think of (plus more) and yet they did it this way.Here is something more intelligent in case anyone is interested.
Rabbi Shaya Ostrov says,
“I know boys who are languishing…
who don’t know how to develop a relationship.
Guys develop the ability to create a relationship during marriage.
>>>>>>>> It’s not a statistical issue. <<<<<<<<<<
Both in Lakewood and the Upper West Side, there are people who have been dating for 20 years. They have not developed the skills to be married. With every passing date, their ability to get married decreases. Couples while they’re dating need an enormous amount of guidance. We need to teach young men how to develop emotionally in early years of schooling … how to understand relationships, how to understand drives. … Kalla and Chosson teachers should be teaching how to create relationships that endure for a lifetime – solid programs that have proven themselves to be helpful. We need to teach people about anxiety and panic which have a very serious effect on relationship”That quote is from an hour long video on the Shidduch crisis that used to be on YWN around 1.5 or 2 years ago. link removed
Unfortunately, YWN put Rabbi Ostrov at around an hour into the video, so I would guess that very few people heard what he had to say.As far as the original poster goes, instead of posting on YWN, please go spend some money on an appointment with Rabbi Ostrov, so he can explain it to you. And may you be zoche to build a bayis ne’man B’yisroel B’karov.
” it’s irrelevant what American [gadolim] hold [regarding the appropriate age for shiduchim.
Hey AR: And for most CR readers, its even more irrelevant what some poster has to say about what rabbonim in EY may think or say about when young men and women here in the states or UK should begin dating and possible marriage. We will make our OWN decisions, in our own time after consulting with our own LRPs and others whose judgement we value.
It is irelevant when a particular Gadol got married. The Shulchan Aruch itself allows one to delay: assuming one doesn’t have money for food and is not yitzro misgaber alav. So I’m not sure what your point is.
I spoke to Ostrov and asked him to explain his position to me and he was apparently unaware that age-gap + population-growth= Agunos exists throughout the world and is mentioned by academics (E.g., Prof. Sautmann of Brown University). He admitted to me that he’s not a math person, by which he meant that he really is in no position to understand or render and opinion on the crisis.
Yes, anyone who delays past nineteen unless he can fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter is chayiv misa. He also won’t have techias hameisim.
Regarding having emunah, that’s fine. But this problem was caused by our bechira and by greedy people who have lucrative family businesses which make them reluctant to stop it.
Are Roster: When Gedolim got married is not relevant to this discussion? according to you they were mechuyav Misa? eb Moshe was the Rav of a town from the time he was 20. I dont think he was worried about not having food.
“Yes, anyone who delays past nineteen unless he can fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter is chayiv misa. He also won’t have techias hameisim.”
Does this also apply to the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who don’t encourage getting married at 21? I just want to know what to say when I get up and yell at my Rav in middle of his drasha on shabbos.You apparently don’t know about poverty in Russia to claim that sufficient food wasn’t a real concern. We can’t uproot what Chazal and the Shulchan Aruch tell us based on speculation regarding when Gedolim ultimately found their shidduch. This is especially true in a situation where there were hardly any from girls to marry. Are you saying Chazal were wrong.
No. Your Rav is not chayiv misa because he’s a shogeg. You, at this point, are no longer a shogeg so if you delay or allow your children to delay, you would be chayiv misa, unlike your Rav and your friends who are, as I said shogegim.
“Anyone who delays past nineteen unless he can fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter is chayiv misa”
So all the unmarried bochurim who don’t qualify for one of the SA waiver who show up for chulent on Thursday night have a target on their backs/??At some point, one has to step back and laugh at some of the nareshkeit that passes for “daas torah” here. And if my disagreement with your mindless comment is apikorsus, so be it.
Say Tehilim 121
No. Your Rav is not chayiv misa because he’s a shogeg. You, at this point, are no longer a shogeg so if you delay or allow your children to delay, you would be chayiv misa, unlike your Rav and your friends who are, as I said shogegim.
How are Rabbonim shogegim? Unless they’ve been living completely secluded from society for the past 5 years they have heard of this. Yet not a single one advocates for it.Do you and Libbi sit on a tribunal and pasken which 21 year old boys meet the requirements of the SA? How am I supposed to know which 22 year old boys to kill? You should start publishing a list of names. Thank you in advance.
Libbi, are you going to come out and disavow this lunatic? Until then, shtika Khodah.
Are Roster: Wrong again, I know about how yidden lived in poverty in Russia. However Rav Moshe was the rav of the town. You claim we cant uproot chazal but puk chazi how hamon ahm firs zich. Bochurim waiting for 23 or 24 is not a 21st century phenomenon.
Girsl should wake up and get real and so should boys.
If there are only 20% of a certain boy but 80% of girls want such boys = SHIDDUCH CRISIS.
As an american godol said years ago, THIS IS A CHINUCH CRISIS!!
It is a boys market so boys need pushing to make decisions and not hold girls waiting etc…. but at the end of the day everyone needs to get real…I am amused by someone out there proclaiming that most of us are or were mechuyavei misah.
But on a serious note, it is very important for this proclaimer to seek professional help. Mental illness is not something to be taken lightly. Megalomania, narcissism and delusions of grandeur can be difficult to treat.@are roster:
Those same Rabbanim from Eretz Yisroel who you claim are much better and smarter than Rabbanim here, also have banned shaving. Why aren’t you shouting about those wicked Americans who shave? Those Rabbanim also said the Boro Park Eruv is invalid. Why aren’t you shouting about the blatant Chillul Shabbos taking place every week? I can go on and on.
As far as the shake down of gevirim in order to fund the age-gap apikurses, here is a quote from a coffee room 2011:
“It doesn’t take much detective work to discover that the founder and director of NASI is a 36 year old Queens resident named Rabbi Moshe P. whose home address is identical to the mailing address for the checks.”
This guy got Rechnitz to get all excited about the hoax and shell out a few dollars to some shady shadchanim. It didn’t last long. The funding ended and so did these fake organizations.poshiteryid:
I laughed when I read your comment, not because it was humorous, but because you stated a truth that does not appear anywhere in this thread. In reality, there are way too many factors in this subject that make vibrant discussions about whether there even is a shidduch crisis, and if yes, what are the causes. You called attention to something that you avoided labeling, but I will.
The good ole myth of the “learning boy”. Every girl who has been so imbued by her respective Bais Yaakov wants one, and believes that this is her own personal key to spirituality and Olam Haboh. Then there is the boys’ counterpart, where staying in yeshiva and “shteiging”, while avoiding even a passing thought of a career and supporting a family is considered one’s mesiras nefesh to Hashem. This is coupled with layers of defensive concoctions, such as distorted views of bitul Torah, the evils of the secular education systems, and the secular workplace. All of this is developed to shelter these thinkers from the direct instructions of Chazal to support a family and do whatever is relevant to be a provider. Yes, some of these boys will emerge as greats in their respective niches of learning, as Roshei Yeshivos, Magidei Shiur, Rabbonim, Poskim, Dayanim, etc. Many will not succeed as Klai Kodesh, and need to have directed their lives toward success. For those who consider attacking me for being modern and secular, I refer to the Chovas Halevavos – Shaar Habitachon – Perek 3.
So our girls and boys each enter the “parsha” with grave distortions. So just how can shidduchim work if there are unrealistic goals, predictable obstacles that will break engagements, and destroy marriages?
Ultimately, those who point to when Gedolim got married are engaging in speculation. These speculators don’t know when the Gedolim started to look, and aren’t willing to consider the fact the Shulchan Aruch’s hetter clearly applies to them . Puk Chazi is fine if you want to be machria in a machlokes, not when you want to uproot a clear, unanimously-accepted chiyuv d’oraissa. Please quote me ONE Teshuva which says that we could ignore the Shulchan Aruch because some Gedolim got married later. I am asking for ONE. Can you provide it, or not? I can provide you multiple MAJOR POSKIM who say that if a business leader tells someone to delay marriage, it is ASSUR to listen to him.
The Poskim are very clear what is happening here. They explain that certain business leaders had a lot to gain from delaying boys. Indeed, the Poksim notify us that these business leaders are committing an “avoin plili” are “asid leetain ess hadin” and they are “reshaim.” The Poskim understand that there is really no justification for this, notwithstanding when particular Gedolim happened to have ultimately gotten married.
It is very easy to claim that someone is suffering from mental illness. It is certainly easier than studying, considering and debating the various chazals which take delaying Pru Urvu extremely seriously. I hope you are right, but I am afraid (and I’m perplexed why you aren’t) you are wrong.
In response to one claiming that there is a chinuch crisis, that may be true, that may be an exacerbating factor – that more girls want learning boys than there are learning boys. But that doesn’t mean that the age-gap imbalance is not ALSO a factor: and so we are required to resolve it.
Now, personally, I don’t think that there is a chinuch crisis. True, it is POSSIBLE that INITIALLY too many girls demand a learning guy. But if that were true, those girls who are willing to date working guys should have a very easy time. And working guys should have hardly any dates. Empirically, that it not true.
Furthermore, even if it was true – even if too many girls are limiting themselves to learning guys – that usually fizzles out after a few years. Almost every yeshivish girl, by the time she is 25, and certainly by the time she is 30, is more than willing to date a non-learning boy. So the chinuch crisis problem which you refer two should, at worst, merely delay girls a could of years. But how does it explain why there are so many single girls in their upper-thirties and forties?
Yes their is a chiyuv to get married and engage in pru urivu. However their is no place in chumash that states the age one should get married. It s quite obvious that hamon ahm does not follow the shemonah esray guideline. Your arguments are not convincing any body. I do not know a psak except for my chaveirim who are advised by our inividual moreh derachim who all seem to have an opinion different than yours. I am also not speculating why our gedolim waited. It is just a simple FACT that many of them were married in their late twenties. In addition, you have the entire seviva of those in Yeshiva Chafetz Chayim who dont even start until they are 25.
I just read the earlier texts. Shaving is a machlokes Haposkim as is whether one could carry in the Borough Park Eruv. You could say that the meikilim are mistaken, that they are being too lienient, but you can’t call them REFORM, because they aren’t IGNORING Shas u’poskim. I don’t see how that’s relevant to whether one could ignore a UNANIMOUSLY-ACCEPTED chiyuv d’oraisa. Based on your logic that we let everything slide, even Reform Jews should be OK in your book, because, heck, we also shave etc.
Before calling the age-gap reality a “hoax,” please contact the economists who have written extensively regarding the marriage-squeeze which is caused by an age-gap and population growth, which is common in South Asa. Maybe you can explain to them why their theories are wrong and a hoax. Tell them that their studies are really based on some yungerman living in Queens who is half their age.
The “Show me ONE psak” is a straw man. Many commenters above pointed out that various Yeshivas have guidelines, a.k.a. a psak, regarding a preferable marriage age and none of them are at 18 or 19. The demand for one psak is laughable, does a psak halachah have legitimacy only after it’s published in a book? How absurd.
The Chazon Ish not only married “late”, he also married a woman who could no longer have children. I dare say that in itself is a psak. The requirement to marry at 18 or 19 is simply not halachah, it is a recommendation and is subject to the times. That’s why we still have poskim, whether they live in America or Israel. It is obvious that the modern day poskim have paskened, whether they printed it or not. Boy or girl, get married when you are mature enough for the commitment and find the right one.
When a Posek writes a Teshuva – not a Psak, a Teshuva – he is REQUIRED to provide justification for his Psak. It also allows us to ascertain whether the Posek was aware of the sugya and all the shitos. This is certainly true in a case where we are being told that reform Judaism is right, that the Shulchan Aruch needs to be updated or otherwise ignored. Furthermore, when we have a written Psak we are able to respond to and correct that psak.
Until we have justification to ignore the Shulchan Aruch, we dare not ignore it. This is especially true whenany of these business leaders aren’t aware of the sief in Shulchan Aruch (I can say this based on conversations I’ve had with them) they aren’t aware of the Chida who says that those who claim that immaturity is a hetter to delay are jeopardizing their Olam haba. They are also unaware that many boys are yitzrom misgaber aleihem.
But even if these balleibatim did know all the facts, we can’t rely on them, because the Rema writes that someone with bias is untrustworthy in Psak.
Ratuional: You stated “The Chazon Ish not only married “late”, he also married a woman who could no longer have children.” I have never heard this. In the ArtScroll Biography it only mentions they weren’t blessed with children not that she could no longer have children at the time they married.
Are Roster,
Who are these “business leaders” “who have lucrative family businesses” that telling boys to wait for their own selfish financial goals? Rav Aharon Shechter Shlita? Rav Malkiel Kotler Shlita? Rav Yerucham Olshin Shlita? Rav Yisroel Reisman Shilta? Why are you beating around the bush? Call out these Rabbonim by name! Put your disdain and disrespect for them and their leadership out for Klal Yisroel to see. It’s amazing to see the brazenness that a pseudonym can give a person, you wouldn’t say half these things if you used your real name, here, or in the FJJ.I may be “insane.” I may be “brazen.” But I am not the topic of conversation. Let’s get back to the issues.
The fact is that it is assur to rely on the Psak of anyone who has any personal interest (even indirect) Even an Amora who had a personal interest was ignored. Once there are family businesses, we are dealing with businessmen. That is what halacha tells; there is nothing brazen about this claim. There is no Teshuva defending the practice. To the contrary, the major Poskim have said that it is assur to listen to anyone who advises you to delay. This is all regarding the basic halacha of getting married before 20, which isn’t merely a recommendation: each DAY after 19 is an additional bittul mitzvahs aseh (See the Chofetz Chaim’s Nidchei Yisrael chapter 25), just like not eating matzah on the night of Pesach. The only difference is that chazal tell us that if you don’t try to get married before 20 you are chayuv misa. Many, many sefarim quote this chazal. None of them say that chazal are exaggerating. The first to say a word against this chazal in the past 2000 years are the people who responded on this blog.
Regarding the Aguna-crisis, Rav Gershon Edelstein, Rav Aharon Leib and Rav Chaim wrote a sharply-worded, blistering letter regarding those businessmen. You can find the letter online. If you don’t like the contents of that letter, take it up with this Gedolim who a) were born in Europe, b) have no bias, c) are real Gedolim (not merely occupiers of prestigious positions).
Aer Roster : Once again your disdain for american Gedolim just wants us to change the channel. So I am.
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