Shidduch Crisis, Daas Torah and Hishtadlos

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  • #589166

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    Here is an essay I found online:

    #634638

    Curious
    Member

    Most of us have parents, B”H.

    Many of us have relatives who have experience/insight in this parsha.

    how could you expect a woman in her late teens to be able to know the first thing about dating?

    It’s actually this group of women in their “late teens” that do have access to their HS or sem teachers. It’s more of an issue for those who are several years out and do not keep up with their teachers.

    #634639

    yros
    Member

    a girl shouldn’t start dating until 21

    #634640

    yros
    Member

    I would like to add in to what I said 17 minutes ago. boys should also start at 21. this is all according to the nasi program which is fantastic.

    #634642

    Joseph
    Participant

    Shemonah Esre L’Chupa

    Pirkei Avos

    #634643

    yossiea
    Member

    We don’t pasken from the Pirkei Avos.(At least that is what I’ve been told every time I start quoting a mishnah from there.)

    Besides, it also says 15 for Talmud (which I might agree with, 5th grade is way too early for gemerah).

    #634644

    azi
    Participant

    I have a feeling that Joseph’s modus operandi is to be an agitator.

    #634645

    Joseph
    Participant

    I needn’t apologize to those offended by the Mishna.

    All I did was quote it.

    #634646

    Curious
    Member

    yros – why didn’t you tell me that when I was 19? Would’ve saved me lots of time…

    Then again, I don’t for a second regret any of my dating experiences thus far. The One Above made me meet the guys I did for a specific reason… There’s something to learn from each and every one.

    #634647

    beacon
    Participant

    Each person you meet brings you one step closer to your bashert.. think of it that way.

    #634648

    oomis
    Participant

    ChofetzChaim, maybe it is because girls have binah yesaira, we do not require the same input from Daas Torah, as you seem to feel is so necessary for a dating bochur. Since time began girls have gotten their dating advice from mother to daughter, from a close female teacher, from close friends who are already dating or married, and from their own instincts. They are taught Hilchos Taharas Hamishpacha in high school, and I guarantee you that more than one General Schmooze (that pesky guy, again) is devoted to the subject of dating for tachlis. I further doubt that most girls would feel very comfortable discussing this with a rabbi, and I cannot imagine a rov who would want to tackle this subject with a classroom full of girls. But I could be wrong…

    #634649

    Joseph
    Participant

    But I could be wrong…

    That’s right!

    #634651

    Beseeching Daas Torah is an essential tool in navigating through shidduchim. How often to people call up their rav with questions about kashrus, chumros etc. Is Shidduchim not at the very least equally important?

    Besides the fact that someone who has substantial daas torah is generally able to see the any situation in an objective light, and therefor, evaluate the situation appropriatly, there is also a tremendous sense of Menuchas Hanafesh one feels knowing that the decision they made, was made with the advice of daas torah. As hard as it may be, you can go to sleep at night, knowing you did the right thing.

    if for no other reason than this alone, I think it is important to consult with daas torah.

    #634652

    onlyemes
    Member

    I request a rabbinical source predating the modern era (before 1800) that defines or describes this vague concept called “hishtadlus”.

    Thank you

    #634653

    notpashut
    Member

    Last time I checked every Bais Yakov High School & Seminary had plenty of Rabbonim & Rebbitzens teaching there.

    #634654

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    chofetzchaim:

    100%! Every boy should have a Rav with whom to speak out dating issues.

    As far as girls are concerned, girls either way should not go out until they are at least 21, to have some better idea of what they really want. In addition, girls could use hadracha, either the method of our bubbies (speaking to siblings, parents and grandparents, B’H) or the “modern method” of asking your sem teacher if option 1 is not available.

    The pitfall of asking a Sem teacher is that she may give you a valid reason that applies in EY, but may be completely off for an American dating system. As long as your “guide” can adjust, you shold be OK.

    #634655

    tzippi
    Member

    Yros, find me 21 year old boys who are serious about learning, have a strong relationship with HKB”H and a rebbe, who are prepared to take on ALL the responsibilities of marriage.

    As it is, for some reason over the last generation it has become much more widely accepted to support for x number of years. If boys will start dating earlier, say 2 years earlier, it will become x+2. Not necessarily good for the shalom bayis of the young couple, and may not help the parents much easier.

    #634656

    tzippi
    Member

    Oh, and about boys being more likely to have a mentor: R’ Avraham Birnbaum talked about his in a Yated article a month or so ago. The yeshiva pattern of boys these days – yeshiva x in the US after high school, yeshiva y in E”Y, then Lakewood is NOT so conducive to boys developing an ONGOING relationship with a rebbe or mentor.

    OTOH, I see my daughters (not up to the boys yet) have a very strong kesher to some high school and sem teachers. And they respect my judgment more than I ever thought they would, too 😉

    #634657

    oomis
    Participant

    “But I could be wrong…

    That’s right”

    Joseph, my comment was meant tongue in cheek. I really don’t think a rov really can or SHOULD dispense such advice to young girls. To me that is extremely untniusdig, and in any case, this is a woman’s job to talk to her daughters. Should he also talk to them about the facts of life? Some things are NOT meant to be discussed with a rov, especially when they are not halachic issues. NOT EVERYTHING IS SHAYACH TO A ROV. It’s really about time, some people started to take a little more responsibilty for their lives.

    Daas Torah does not mean that every rov has the intuitive sensitivity to know everything about everything. As a matter of fact, some rabbonim have made some personal matters worse for the individuals they counselled, because their advice was absolutely awful (like the rov I know who insisted to an acuaintance of mine,a woman about to get divorced, that she had to continue to go the Mikvah each month and be with her husband that night. She became pregnant, STILL got divorced a few months later, and gave birth to a child that she now had to support on her own, because her ex-husband was incapable and unwilling to make any money for child support). Knowledge of Torah does not necessarily equal knowledge of human nature, in spite of what you may think. Plenty of Rabbonim have been divorced, had terrible marriages that they remained in, had children go off the derech, committed crimes, were emotionally unstable, and so forth. Being a talmid chochum does not automatically confer wisdom in all areas on anyone.

    I say this, not to denigrate rabbonim, chas v’sholom, but rather to point out that they are human and make mistakes, and certain areas of life should not necessarily be in their sphere of influence, in my opinion. What a mother needs to teach her daughters, is one of those areas. Again, JMO. I am sure you disagree, but that is your right, B”H.

    At least, you get to think for yourself.

    #634658

    tzippi
    Member

    Don’t know if I messed up on my other post, or if I said something really controversial 😉

    About boys going out at 21: fine if he’s ready to accept all his responsibilities. But if it means another 2 years, say, of support, that’s ridiculous.

    And about mentors: R’ Avraham Birnbaum in a Yated article a month or so ago mentioned the problem with boys and mentors. Considering that a good boy will likely be in 3 yeshivos by shidduchim age (US post high school, E”Y, Lakewood) there is less ease in developing an ongoing relationship.

    #634659

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, in response to Oomis’s “But I could be wrong” you said That’s right!

    – are you trying to imply that she is wrong? I would much more likely take a woman’s point of view on what young women are comfortable with over a man’s. And I cannot imagine most women talking to their rabbonim about what to do about the lack of attractiveness of their prospective husband. There are some things that are women only conversation.

    As for consulting daas torah – that term is thrown around way too much sometimes. Its one thing to ask a Rav his opinion on the prospective mates haskafa or halacha or rabbonim – or even ask his opinion. But to assume that because he is a rabbi he knows whether or not you will have a happy marriage? Just because someone is perfect on paper, doesnt mean the person is right in real life. The Rabbi cannot answer that question for you – only YOU can say yes or no. And then YOU have to live with that decision (good or bad). Consulting people you trust for opinions is a great idea but

    advice is only that – no Rabbi (or parent or friend or teacher) should tell you who or who not to marry (unless their reasons are halacha/hashkafa based). No Rabbi/Parent/Friend/Teacher will be living in your marriage for you – thats YOU.

    As for the age – there is no magic age where everyone is ready to get married. I know some girls who are ready at 18 – I know some guys who are really never ready. I know girls who get married just to leave their parents house – one girl like that just got divorced and has 4 kids under 6.

    I think its a shame that most Jewish kids never really get a chance to live on thier own. I moved out of my house at 19 because commuting to college was too hard (schedule wise). I loved living at home (had a great situation, I get along well with my family etc), but living on my own opened my eyes to who I am, rather than who I am with respect to my family. No, it did NOT mean I broke any halacha of any sort, just that you get more familiar with who you are. This isn’t for everyone (not everyone can withstand the pressures of the outside world if they arent supervised by their parents).

    What amazes me most is that parents are so strict with their “adult” children, but then have no problem with them getting married. IMHO, if they arent mature enough to be trusted, they arent mature enough to get married. I don’t think this is something I will ever understand.

    #634660

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    the “crisis” here is that everyone has such diversified opinions and thinks theirs is the ONLY way to go

    #634661

    Jothar
    Member

    I’m married right now because my wife had someone to speak to besides the shadchan and her parents. Invei hagefen has good mentors.

    #634662

    oomis
    Participant

    the “crisis” here is that everyone has such diversified opinions and thinks theirs is the ONLY way to go

    That sounds about right. There are different strokes for different folks, and what works for your life, might not work for someone else’s. The idea is that we need to understand that there are many different drachim, and they all can lead to a frum, happy, fulfilling Torah life. I like chocolate ice cream, you like vanilla. So what – BOTH are delicious.

    #634663

    notpashut
    Member

    Sjs,

    I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but once again GENERALLY SPEAKING, although I don’t agree with every word you & oomis said, (i.e. having that baby – although I don’t think this is the proper forum to discuss it) overall, I basically agree with both of you.

    #634664

    chofetzchaim
    Member

    First of all, I didn’t write this. It was written by a friend of mine.

    notpashut wrote:

    Last time I checked every Bais Yakov High School & Seminary had plenty of Rabbonim & Rebbitzens teaching there.

    I think the issue being addressed is for girls a few years after seminary who no longer have a strong kesher with their high school or seminary Rabbonim or Rebbitzens. The point in the article is for girls to either keep a kesher or to find someone else who they can have a kesher with so that they are following Daas Torah when dating.

    #634665

    squeak
    Participant

    I agree with your ice cream analogy. If you eat chocolate and I eat vanilla, we are still both eating ice cream.

    It’s when I hear about low-fat ice cream, or worse – tofu substitutes, that I start to get belligerent.

    #634667

    yehudaj
    Member

    This article looks familiar, oh wait that is because I wrote it.

    After reading many of these comments I see that the main point failed to come across to some people.

    Consulting people you trust for opinions is a great idea but

    advice is only that – no Rabbi (or parent or friend or teacher) should tell you who or who not to marry (unless their reasons are halacha/hashkafa based). No Rabbi/Parent/Friend/Teacher will be living in your marriage for you – thats YOU.

    I would take the exact opposite opinion, the only person who does NOT know who the right person to marry, may very well be YOU! considering negiyas, pressures, silly hakpadas that make no sense. I heard a story where a guy wanted to call it all off because when he asked the girl what animal she would be like she said a horse, and he decided that a horse is too masculine, laugh, think that the guy is from a different planet, but he is not alone, “normal” people can make ridiculous decisions have the most out-there-I-Can’t-believe-that’s-what-he-is-looking-for shtussim, another guy only wanted a girl with wavy hair! yes if you asked daas torah they would kindly tell you to see a shrink before entering shidduchim again, but the issue lies when people don’t ask, and they think they know what they want when they can’t be further from the truth. And who are you getting advice from your best friend who also happens to be in her late twenties not married?. Don’t short change Daas Torah, it must dictate EVERY aspect of your life. I heard about Rav Henoch Lebowitz ZT”L that he once came to shiur shaking his head I told him not to, why didn’t he listen?” his talmidim asked what hes was referring to, and he said that he warned a baal habos that chazal says a third of your money in karka a third in liquid, (and i forgot the other third, Rav Lebowitz didnt i cant seem to recall it I’m sure someone will let me know :-)) and he didn’t listen and he lost it all! There is nothing we should shy down from asking Daas Torah about, and kal vchomer such a critical topic as is shiduchim!

    #634668

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    so who’re you refereing to by “tofu substitutes”?

    #634669

    tentwenty30
    Member

    I request a rabbinical source predating the modern era (before 1800) that defines or describes this vague concept called “Da’as Torah”.

    Thank you

    #634670

    ujm
    Participant

    Eighteen is the age given for marriage in Pirkei Avos. For many reasons, 18 is a very practical age – by then a man has had an opportunity to learn a large amount of Torah. He is expected to be mature enough to support a family. The Gemora (Kiddushin 29b) says that from a perspective of guarding against sin, 16 is better and 14 is better yet. The Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer 1:3) says that the best way to perform the mitzvah of marriage is to get married at age 13.

    The halachic deadline is age 20. If a man has not gotten married by age 20, the Gemora says that all of his days he will have sinful thoughts. A man who did not get married by age 20 is supposed to be beaten by the Beis Din until he agrees to get married. This is the halacha in Shulchan Aruch (Even HaEzer 1:3), though the Rama says that the custom nowadays is not to force people to get married. In any case, if he hasn’t gotten married by age 20, he should get married as soon as possible.

    The Chachomim of the Gemora understood the nature of man and his drives very well. They suggested that a man should get married at 18, and that for protection against improper sexual urges, younger would be better. They said that putting off marriage to later than 20 would permanently warp his personality.

    Today in Jewish society, it is unusual for a man to get married as young as 18, and most don’t even get married by 20, and it is almost unheard of for a man to get married younger than 18.

    #634671

    Curious
    Member

    yehudaj – those examples you provided sound just like ***Deleted*** Any connection?

    the deleted question that was posed above is a classic example of a potential invasion of privacy. YW Moderator-72

    #634672

    notpashut
    Member

    tentwenty30,

    You are obviously new here. This topic has been hashed (or mashed) out a million times.

    Check out the thread titled “What is your hashkafic affiliation?” for what I believe was the most in-depth conversation on the subject.

    #634673

    Joseph
    Participant

    Curious, Are you trying to make my kind of trouble?

    #634674

    oomis
    Participant

    “(i.e. having that baby – although I don’t think this is the proper forum to discuss it) “

    Maybe yes, maybe no – but it happened, and the reason it happened was that a woman who gave over her ability to think for herself, allowed Daas Torah to give her VERY foolish advice (which considering that her husband had decided to divorce her months prior, and they were separated already for that time, was probably also contrary to the halacha that a woman being divorced by her husband is forbidden to him, or am I mistaken about that?).

    #634675

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    Curious: oh no goody too shoes is makin trouble!!!

    #634676

    Curious
    Member

    I was just quoting a shiur! Obviously if the person speaks about it publicly… never mind, not worth it.

    #634677

    squeak
    Participant

    oomis you are mistaken about that. It depends on what “stage” the divorce is in. If there is a possibility that it may not happen, she is not forbidden to him.

    #634678

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant
    #634679

    Joseph
    Participant

    areivimzehlazeh – yasher koach.

    #634681

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    areivimzehlazeh:

    Teshuva is always a good idea 🙂

    #634682

    oomis
    Participant

    oomis you are mistaken about that. It depends on what “stage” the divorce is in. If there is a possibility that it may not happen, she is not forbidden to him.

    Squeak, they were going to the Beis Din very shortly and were already living apart for many months. There was absolutely NO chance of reconciliation – the man was a complete loser and abuser who showed his true colors shortly after the wedding.

    #634683

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Joseph- you need to change tracks, too predictable 🙂 as i typed that post i was thinking “Joseph will respond something to the effect of- thank you for standing up for our Gedolim etc…”

    #634684

    tal
    Member

    So, am I faulted after returning from a date for speaking to my father who is somewhat subjective when it comes to his little girl out of kibud av but making the decision with my rav who is looking at everything with daas torah and then calling the shadchan with a final answer (even if the phone rings fifty times while I am deciding with my father and my rav.) Torah is the reason I am doing this, therefore, kibud av followed by daat torah.

    The rabanim know an aweful lot more then we give them credit for understanding. Those who think they are chachamim are tipshim and its converse holds true.

    If we are using the torah to say 18 lachupah then every girl needs a rav also. God said all his commandments not the convenient ones. If you, as a father, have a daughter without a rav, then send her out to find one because this is every father’s responsibility.

    #634686

    tentwenty30
    Member

    notpashut, thanks for the reference

    #634687

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I trust rabbonim implicitely with halachic issues, but with non-halachic issues, you should turn to them for advice but understand its ADVICE and not a psak.

    My husband’s family’s Rav was not crazy about me and wasn’t very excited that we were getting married. Had my husband listed to him, we would not have gotten married and had the beautiful marriage we have to day. His Rav gave him advice, but my husband had to make a decision.

    Rabbonim are NOT experts in everything. They are experts in TORAH. Would you ask them what antibiotics to take for an ear infection? I wouldnt, because that is not their area of expertise.

    #634688

    notpashut
    Member

    102030,

    no problem, enjoy!

    #634689

    Joseph
    Participant

    102030, here is the link:

    What is Your Hashkafic Affiliation?

    (the later posts deal with your question.)

    #634690

    shkoyach
    Member

    First and foremost the reason that there is a shidduch crisis is because it is the retzon Hashem and He obviously wants us to take several messages and get closer to Him through it as with all tzaros.

    As for the asking a shaila… Rabbanim are human and can make mistakes however, they daven and we should daven to that their eitza should be the best eitzah for us and HKB”H should guide them. That being said never be afraid to go and ask. in ANY siuation. We can’t rely on our own objective feelings, especially girls b/c girls/women get completely wrapped in the emotionality of the situation and there goes all logic out the window. And even for the guys, logic isn’t always the answer, sometimes there’s an extra bitachon and emunas chachamim involved.

    more in the next post…

    #634691

    shkoyach
    Member

    I want to share something that may help in regards to asking shailos.

    I had a situation (without details of course) where I wasn’t sure if I should continue with the shidduch. I had parents, shadchan, friends etc involved (which by the way not a good idea b/c I had everyone giving me contradicting opinions) until finally I said out with everyone else… I need to speak to a Rav THAT DEALS WITH THESE THINGS VERY OFTEN as well as KNOWS ME to some extent that he can give a good eitzah. And so, I called up this Rav flustered and a bit emabarrassed and tried to recap e/t in a not so long phone conversation. He gave me eitzah, but I wasn’t content with it and I felt that he didn’t chap the matziv. I followed some of his advice and was back in touch with him. When I spoke to him the second time, apparently I had given a much bigger picture where he could help me MUCH MORE b/c he saw more details and things became clearer to him. Suffice it to say he helped me through and helped me to be aware of what I needed to be aware of and make appropriate decisions. I also went to Daas Toirah for a bracha and extra eitza and you can’t go wrong I dont care what when you follow the psak of gedolei Hador. They see things that we dont.

    If you made it thru the story great. My point being… go to a rav… ASK and GET EITZAH but be clear and repeat the situation and give as many details as needed to get the proper eitzah and then you With Siyata Dishmaya you cant go wrong

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