Shidduch Crisis Denial Syndrome

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  • #1664471

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    DaasYochid ☕Participant

    The shadchanim for the most part are afraid of any major change which may affect thier wallets and pocket books.

    Closing the age gap won’t decrease the number of shidduchim made; if anything, lowering the typical age at which boys start the process will increase the workload of shadchanim.

    But don’t let logic get in the way of a good rant.
    —————————————————-
    I never mentioned a word about age gap.
    Maybe you should learn to read before pressing the send button. This way you avoid showing tge the world your weakness of not reading properly.

    #1664476

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant

    Takes2 – back to the anti yeshivish again? Why do you hate it so much?
    ———-+———————————-
    Syag.
    edited
    I never mentioned anything about yeshivish shadchanim.
    First of all there are plenty non yeshivish shadchanim out there.
    But my main point is that most seasoned sgadchanim have most things down pat, so when someone suggests maybe we should change certain critetia in the dating process, tusually the first people to not entertain new ideas are the shadchanim.
    For the most part its major parnasa for many shadchanim, so they dont want change, because it makes them work harder.
    I know this first hand because i have 5 shadchanim in my family and they pretty much all have the same MO.

    edited

    #1664481

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I never mentioned a word about age gap.

    The OP talks about more girls than boys. The way that’s being addressed (attempted at least) is by reducing age gap.

    Maybe you’re in your own thread.

    #1664521

    Kolsason
    Participant

    BH

    In looking for a shiduch one should focus on ikar and on the tofel. Also to assure not to hurt feelings of others. A segula is to donate to hachnasas kalla. Have bitachon and do practical things to achieve success.

    #1664568

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    “Sorry, that’s just not a good reason to ignore the disparity, or tell people that they they’re demonizing women, they’re in denial about other issues, or that there isn’t a shidduch crisis, etc.”

    The explanation for the above is that there will always be some people who will respond with aggressiveness and cynicism and argue for the sake of arguing. It has more to do with personality than the topic at hand, so I would just ignore those type of people and focus on what is important.

    #1664631

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I don’t need any studies (though studies were done). I see it by my extended family & friends.

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    The Wolf

    #1664635

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY
    ” My point still stands.”

    Except that it doesnt.

    the Age Gap TM might explain the shidduch crises on shidduch island or games of musical chairs wit ha fixed number of people.
    IT does not explain the shidduch crises in the real world.
    since this thread began more boys started dating.
    This will be even more true by next week once the freezer opens.
    (Of course more girls started dating too, and perhaps more girls than boys)

    furthermore. Even on imaginary shidduch island where the numbers are absolutely fixed. It STILL doesn’t fully explain the crises since it doesn’t address the real cause of the Shiduch crises namely the Dating Divide TM.

    #1664640

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    since this thread began more boys started dating.
    This will be even more true by next week once the freezer opens.
    (Of course more girls started dating too, and perhaps more girls than boys)

    You answered your own question. I’m not sure why you’re so confused.

    There would be a shidduch crisis (perhaps in some ways worse) if we did arranged marriages instead of dating, but exclusively set up 23 year old boys with 19 year old girls.

    Dating makes it worse in a way because many seem to take a long time to “find the right one”, but isn’t the cause of the disparity.

    #1664646

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This will be even more true by next week once the freezer opens.

    Tu BiShvat is tonight.

    #1664657

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” I’m not sure why you’re so confused.”

    I’m confused as to why people fall for a simplistic explanation that falls apart when you think about it a bit.

    “You answered your own question”

    I dont see how.
    My question was:

    “where is the hold up in the shidduch crises tM

    in other words typically these are the steps to a successful shiduch:
    1) Girl is mentioned to Guy
    2) Guy agrees to go out
    3) Girls agrees)
    4) They date
    5) they get engaged
    6) they get married”

    (Weve discussed this before, the question wasnt posed to you. I know you’ve bought into the Age Gap as being the main/only cause, and again I’m not opposed to working on the age gap I just hope that sometime soon people wil lrealize that that isnt where the answer lies and that real solutions are needed. how long has it been already. Oh that was the other question I asked:
    in the past 5/10 years has the age gap gotten better? Has the shidduch crises? )

    “Tu BiShvat is tonight.”
    I think you mean last night was Yad BiShvat

    #1664697

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “You answered your own question”

    I dont see how.

    Because you didn’t chap which question I meant…

    I’m referring to your musical chairs/island question.

    Yes, it’s not a closed island. But if more girls keep entering the island than boys, and the same amount of girls boys leave, the disparity remains and increases.

    #1664747

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My question was:

    “where is the hold up in the shidduch crises tM

    I don’t see the relevance of that question to the disparity of boys to girls.

    Again, (I don’t think you responded to this point) the disparity would still exist if we entirely cut dating out of the process.

    #1664752

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    in the past 5/10 years has the age gap gotten better? Has the shidduch crises? )

    I don’t know why that question is relevant. Maybe you are suggesting that we closed the gap but it didn’t help?

    Anyhow, I looked it up. Apparently, trying to close the gap by focusing on the older girls didn’t make much if a dent, because for the most part, the boys are still marrying the younger girls. So now, they’re pushing for younger boys to get married.

    #1664753

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think you mean last night was Yad BiShvat

    Oops, can you please be motzi me on the brocha on the bukser?

    #1664755

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Im still confused why this topic makes people so heated. I don’t see how posters i know to be intelligent cant see the flaws in this theory but i dont get why im not allowed to say so without getting jumped on.
    Why can’t ubiquitin be right? Why is there no agree to disagree?

    #1664813

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY
    “I’m referring to your musical chairs/island question.”

    I don’t have a question regarding that

    “I don’t see the relevance of that question to the disparity of boys to girls.”

    Because the problem isn’t one of disparity. fine that MAY turn into a problem once the Dating Divide is fixed (I doubt it) but we will deal with that then .

    “I don’t know why that question is relevant.” (reg whether anything changed)
    Its relevant for 2 reasons:
    1) Ive seen NASI advertising that they’ve been successful in getting people to marry closer in age, I’m curious whether it has helped (which was their argument)
    2) I’m wondering how long we will have to delay actually doing anything while we harp on the Age Gap until we decide that this wasn’t the main cause, or that without putting guns to people’s heads you cant force people to marry based on age.
    Regardless, I don’t think it’ll help, It is just a stall tactic (deliberate or not) to avoid real change. At some point I hope people will try something else 10 years 20 years, 30 ? At what point do you say ok time to actually change our dating?

    #1664795

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why can’t ubiquitin be right?

    Why can’t he be wrong?

    There are flaws in every single vaccine study too. Yet, the evidence strongly points to their being effective and safe.

    If we needed to literally be 100% certain about anything, and 99.9% wasn’t good enough, we’d be paralyzed and could never accomplish anything.

    #1664796

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There is a sense in which singles are being picky, in that they want to marry someone who is better than nothing. If they were willing to settle for worse than nothing, the shidduch crisis would technically be over!

    #1664826

    AriLyons1
    Participant

    The problem is very simple. When you take “nature” out of the picture and choices are made based on resumes, pictures, digging up information etc you’re left with a crisis. Their are way too many time consuming and decision making obstacles to overcome to even get to a first date.

    #1664828

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t have a question regarding that

    I think you’re playing semantics

    1) Ive seen NASI advertising that they’ve been successful in getting people to marry closer in age, I’m curious whether it has helped (which was their argument)

    Well, I answered.

    Meanwhile, I don’t think you’ve responded to my point that the disparity would exist even if we did arranged marriages, thereby making The Dating Divide™ irrelevant.

    #1664838

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Anyhow, I looked it up. Apparently, trying to close the gap by focusing on the older girls didn’t make much if a dent, because for the most part, the boys are still marrying the younger girls.”

    DY: Where did you glean this information?

    #1664857

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You have already given reasons why you think he’s wrong, now I’m asking you why he can’t be right. Not allowing yourself to understand the other features at play, and not allowing yourself to entertain being wrong is exactly what is paralyzing.
    No matter how strongly I see a ‘side’, I always accept Put myself in the perspective of other people’s viewpoints. It’s the only honest way to have a dialogue. And I m not seeing any of that. Yes there are flaws in every study, that’s the point we are trying to get across. But I haven’t even seen studies that make enough sense to be called such.

    #1664875

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I always accept Put myself in the perspective of other people’s viewpoints.

    So put yourself in the perspective of the people who think there’s no valid perspective which denies the demographic issue.

    But I haven’t even seen studies that make enough sense to be called such.

    Which part of the equation do you disagree with?

    #1664879

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “So put yourself in the perspective of the people who think there’s no valid perspective which denies the demographic issue.”
    I obviously did (and do) or it wouldn’t be an honest discussion. But that’s the third time I’ve asked it if you (the global you) and you keep tossing it back. I’m trying to understand why the resistance to being part of a two way conversation on this.

    #1664882

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Where do you see resistance? I think I’ve answered (almost?) every point addressed to me, but I don’t see others doing the same.

    #1664887

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Why can’t ubiquitin be right?

    Why can’t he be wrong?”

    That’s not answering a question

    “You have already given reasons why you think he’s wrong, now I’m asking you why he can’t be right.

    So put yourself in the perspective of the people who think there’s no valid perspective which denies the demographic issue.“

    Same here

    “Why is there no agree to disagree?”

    No response here either

    There have been several other responses to your comments from other posters, I didn’t see them to be unanswered, even if you don’t agree with them.

    #1664905

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Well, I answered.”

    ” I don’t think you’ve responded to my point that the disparity would exist’

    1) first of all, IT may exist as IVe said , in an imaginary world (shidduch island) it is possible that it would exist. Nonetheless even in this imaginary world the Age Gap isn’t enough to explain the shiduch crises. Thus creating it all about the age gap is a waste of time.

    2) In reality it doesn’t really exist. Because there are always more boys and more girls. We are not matching fixed system. Musical chairs is often used as an analogy. In a game of musical chairs with 100 players and 90 chairs, leaving behind 10 players.

    The reality though is every year 5 % more players and chairs are added. (Don’t get bogged down with the numbers I’m illustrating a point ) so after a year there are 105 players and 94.5 chairs. A year later there are 110.25 players for 99.225 chairs. etc…
    As long as the Ribono shel olom keep creating more players and chairs even if they are different numbers. The game will never end .

    Thus what we are left with is the Age Gap only makes sense in a simplistic closed system, and EVEN in that system it is only part of the problem.
    Thus focusing on the Age Gap is a waste of effort and time

    #1664910

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, it makes sense even in a changing system, although we certainly don’t know who will be stuck without a chair.

    #1664925

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    It doesn’t make any sense in a changing system. (And thats with the assumption it would make sense otherwise)

    #1664907

    eli lev
    Participant

    @haimy u say “something is … wrong” do u have an opinion , WHAT is it thats wrong??????

    #1664929

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It doesn’t make any sense in a changing system.

    It does. I’ll illustrate.

    At any given moment in time, there are more girls than boys in shidduchim. It changes because some constantly leave and enter, but when the same amount of boys and girls leave, it doesn’t change the disparity, and when more girls than boys enter, it only increases the disparity.

    #1664937

    Joseph
    Participant

    Whoever agrees that the age gap is a significant cause of a disparity resulting in a larger number of girls in shidduchim than boys, resulting in a constant percentage of girls being unable to ever marry, must by definition agree that to mostly or at least partially correct that crisis the following two steps will significantly help, if not they’re being absolutely critical to fix the problem:

    1. Boys getting married notably younger than the current trend.

    2. Boys marrying girls their own age, rather than an average of being three years older than their wife.

    It seems apparent than both these steps could be much better accomplished, if not perhaps the only way to implement them on a consistent basis in the future, is for far more parental involvement in choosing shidduchim’s timeline (age) and partner (spouse).

    #1664951

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As long as the Ribono shel olom keep creating more players and chairs even if they are different numbers. The game will never end .

    There is an end game. People don’t stay in shidduch age forever.

    #1664953

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    As long as the Ribono shel olom keep creating more players and chairs even if they are different numbers. The game will never end .

    Yes! Yes! Thank you. That is the point. And i cannot wrap my head around why anyone is missing/overlooking/discounting that (attempts at explaining it notwithstanding)

    #1664955

    Libbi
    Participant

    Please dont mix in the Ribono Shel Olam in to this. Boys delaying till 23 are not listening to Hashem, Halacha, and Daas Torah. They are transgressing on VeLo SoSuru Achrai Ainaychem. It is impossible not to have immoral thoughts when a person is single. Lo Tov Heyois HoOdom Levado. Gedolim in EY Paskened that there is a Lo SaMod Al Dam ReYecho on the boys that are delaying Shidduchim

    #1664957

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    AriLyons1Participant

    The problem is very simple. When you take “nature” out of the picture and choices are made based on resumes, pictures, digging up information etc you’re left with a crisis. Their are way too many time consuming and decision making obstacles to overcome to even get to a first date.
    ———————————–
    Very well said.
    Short and sweet.

    #1664958

    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag, plus everyone has a zivug, a bashert, from 40 days before birth. So it cannot be that there’s even one Yid ever who cannot get married. Correct?

    #1664967

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Very well said.”

    I second that

    #1664975

    Libbi
    Participant

    If some Balai Avaire are robbing & stealing money from Miss Bais Yakov student. Can they claim that Parnasa is Bashert, because this is the way Hashem gives them Parnasa.
    The same is true with the boys that delay till 23. The girls are their victims. They claim that its Bashert for over 10% of the girls per grade per year to stay single. Rachmona Litzlan from their Farkrumte way of justifying their crimes.

    #1664986

    Health
    Participant

    JOE -“Syag, plus everyone has a zivug, a bashert, from 40 days before birth. So it cannot be that there’s even one Yid ever who cannot get married. Correct?”

    So why do people marry twice – to two never married women?!?

    #1665032

    Health
    Participant

    “They claim that its Bashert for over 10% of the girls per grade per year to stay single.”

    Who is the “they”?
    And there are plenty of males in the 30’s, 40’s, & 50’s!
    If a woman wants to get married & have kids – there are plenty of options.
    The problem is that they are Picky!

    #1665052

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Health, see my previous comment.

    #1665058

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “There is an end game. People don’t stay in shidduch age forever.”

    Excellent,
    But there is no reason why that person should wait “forever”
    Back to the chairs
    While when there are 100 players and 90 chairs , 10 will be left without chairs. A year later we have ,there are 110.25 players for 99.225 chairs. etc…

    Now imagine this game after several rounds the disparity has grown there are 115.7625 players for 104.18625.
    When the round is done there are 11.57625 (more than the original disparity!)
    This leads to one of two possibilities (of course a combination is possible)

    either
    1) the original 10 have all found shiduchim,, and the extra 11.6 are all relative new comers, so ok hopefully they will find their chairs in the next few rounds. No problem, thye arent waiting “forever” some wait longer than others.

    or
    2) Those 10 extra are STILL left without a chair, at this point we would have t conclude that it cant just be the age gap keeping them without seats, they must not hear as well, or run as fast or something Just the disparity cannot explain how these 10 are still let standing round after round

    ““Very well said.” I second that”

    Yep agreed

    #1665068

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: Your math is bad. I would otherwise explain it to you if not for the fact that it’s been explained extensively here for years, so saying it one more time is certainly going to fall on deaf non-understanding ears.

    #1665088

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    And there it is again. Someone doesnt agree with the numbers so you need to throw insults. What is arong with you guys? Ubiq is an intelligent poster, im not an idiot and we are not alone in seeing that your age gap theory doesnt make sense. But we dont seem to have a problem with you valuing it, we just found an explanation that makes much more sense (to some of us) and is much more sound (to some of us) and possibly more in line (in some of our opinions) with everything we have learned about hishtadlus. So what in the world justifies these crazy responses? Why do you all become anti vaxees when someone disagrees with you?

    #1665085

    knafaym
    Participant

    @ubiquitin
    The silent majority happens during phases 2,3&4.
    But first, cold feet, late blooming red flags, or intervening family members i believe prevent #5&#6.
    Non-commitment to dating, for whatever the issue, prevents #1, from the male or female side….

    #1665100

    knafaym
    Participant

    That leaves us with …
    Either the guy or girl says no
    The dating goes bust.

    First of all we must remember that during the late teens and early twenties identity and emotional difficulties come to fruition. If they’ve been festering inside this is when they burst out (quite silently may I add) and the person who is experiencing this most likely is to embarrassed to share.

    Someone with emotional issues shouldn’t be dating at all and must get help. However, they’re too afraid to share so they date and fail.
    On the other hand, when one side or both don’t know who they are, they don’t know with whom to date so they say no to a plausible person or they select the wrong person and the dating fails.
    Some people are selecting who they think they want to be, or their parents want them to be (etc), and the dating fails. (Or the marriage does, or they live miserably)
    Obviously the minority have emotional or psychological issues.
    That leaves us with identity.

    #1665110

    knafaym
    Participant

    Identity is one of the basic foundations for any successful marriage.

    I know where I am Hashkafically and that is what I prefer for my household. Perhaps one quick way to define this is by saying the hashkafa of Rabbi X. really speaks to me that’s where I want to be.
    I know what my Shabbos table is going to look like please God.
    This is how much time I’d like (my husband) to dedicate towards learning Torah everyday.
    This how I’d like to educate my children.
    This is how I’d like to deal with our finances and make financial decisions.
    This is how we resolve disagreements or solve our fights.
    (Before I got married I told my almost wife that she will always be right and I always win!)

    These are most of the key elements of identity. Without this knowledge we’re picking the wrong dates on the foundational level. Then they can go out and see if they communicate well have mutual attraction enjoy each other’s company.
    Well that’s my two cents.

    #1665135

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “Your math is bad.”
    I said dont get caught up on the math. I’m just illustrating a point.

    “I would otherwise explain it to you if not for the fact that it’s been explained extensively here for years, ”

    That’s ok. I understand it, there is no reason to revisit this again.
    I’m explaining it to newer posters (like the op).

    #1665179

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This leads to one of two possibilities (of course a combination is possible)

    either
    1) the original 10 have all found shiduchim,, and the extra 11.6 are all relative new comers, so ok hopefully they will find their chairs in the next few rounds. No problem, thye arent waiting “forever” some wait longer than others.

    or
    2) Those 10 extra are STILL left without a chair, at this point we would have t conclude that it cant just be the age gap keeping them without seats, they must not hear as well, or run as fast or something Just the disparity cannot explain how these 10 are still let standing round after round

    1) is only possible if the old timers marry the newcomers. In other words, closing the age gap. So we agree, but the problem is that’s not happening.

    2) I don’t follow. There aren’t enough chairs. No matter how fast everyone runs, someone will get to the chairs before others.

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