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I know this is the 100th thread about this topic.
But maybe someone here can help me understand.
It is CLEARLY obvious that there is a shidduch crisis. I know that half of you will deny it.
But do you not see that there are more older single girls than boys??????
And that most girls wait (at least) months in between dates???
Is it really still not clear to people???????????????
Why are people still denying it?
Maybe someone can help me understand why no one is doing anything about it.
Why are the boys still waiting to start shidduchim until 23 or 24?
And not dating the girls who are their own age?
Maybe someone has an answer for me?
Is it because you don’t care about yenem and only care/think about yourself? And for sure it won’t happen to your sisters/daughters so why should you care?
Looking for any perspectives on this so I can go back to looking up to the frum community and their values, like I have until now. Because right now honestly I just don’t understand how people could be so cruel.Maybe someone can help me understand why no one is doing anything about it.
No one is doing anything about it????? There are 100 Coffee Room threads about it!!!!!!
” There are 100 Coffee Room threads about it!!!!!!”
Not true. If you scan the CR archives, the actual number is about 117. What we really need is a new and updated thread on techales.
I was not on previous threads, so let me try. Apologize if I am repeating previous threads
I don’t think dating by age matters: at the end, hopefully, one boy finds one girl…
maybe there are less boys applying for shidduch, while more of them looking in other places? males everywhere are less risk-averse than females.
that is – very traditional boys interested in less traditional girls; less traditional boys interested in not-so-observant girls; not-so observant boys interested in non-observant girls, etc, etc
Here’s a perspective you should consider.
The shididuch crisis does not exist for girls that live with their family in Lakewood. I have heard that the number of older unmarried girls is less than the number of older unmarried bochurim in Lakewood.
Most boys in the U.S. wait until 23 or 24 because they are not mature enough to deal with marriage until then. If they didn’t wait, then instead of a shidduch crisis, we would have a divorce crisis.
There is no shidduch crisis.
And I can say that without using an inordinate number of question marks.Not to make light of the OP. The Corona Virus has only worsened an already challenging situation for social interactions within the frum tzibur. Some young men and women may be uncomfortable using Zoom or other online meeting apps in lieu of in-person dates. As the weather gets colder, it becomes more difficult to find safe outdoor locations for meeting. Its easy to joke about the shidduch crisis but everyone should think about safe ways to introduce young folks in their social orbits in a manner that will be comfortable within their hashkafah.
There are many outlets today. I can give you a couple of examples.
1. Sign up to Partners in Shidduchim. You have a wide selection of singles from all across the spectrum.
2. Send your resume to (contact info removed). He has a network of shadchanim that will send you a multitude of prospects. These all have references that you can look into.
3. Grow up. If you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to look thru the selections yourself. Find who you like and then run it by your parents. All too often, the parents want something completely different than what the boy/girl want.While the data vary slightly from year to year, there are approximately 105 male births for every 100 female births in the U.S. The ratio does not seem to vary much by geographic region or ethnicity. The male/female ratio is even higher (118/100) in China and some other Asian countries where gender-based abortions are reported to occur.
I’ve read through many of the shidduch crisis past threads here in the CR but I still am not convinced there is any “structural” issue that must be addressed. All these debates end up doing is increasing the level of stress on single young women and make them feel more like “damaged goods”.The crisis is ongoing because both sides won’t give in.
Meaning, I believe that boys at 21 are not mature enough for marriage or able to support a family. However the other side believes that they are.
There’s no rational discussion about “how can we change the boys chinuch system to make them mature or able to support a family.” Rather the response is “at 21 a boy is ready,” no if and or buts about it.
When the boys side says “let girls start later,” the response to that is **!?;’*: THE NERVE TO TELL GIRLS, WHO ALREADY HAVE A HARD TIME, TO START LATER.
Without both of either sides giving in, nothing will change. The boys will continue to be massive reshoim, and the girls will still be single.Flatbush:
Your comment is not just insensitive. It’s plain nasty and not true. The maturity issue is not decided by gender or biological age. There are plenty of young men who are decently mature before 20, and plenty of overgrown babies at 30. Same goes for women. Your labeling boys reshoim is cruel, and unbecoming for a Yid. How dare you!
I am quite skeptical about all these discussions about “shidduch crisis”. yes, there are singles out there. There are too many single men, and there are too many single women. I do not believe that any individual boy or girl is single because of a crisis. I believe that each one has its own reasons and issues, and that all these efforts to solve the problem on a community basis are missing the point. Since there are singles who fall outside the age brackets common to our community today for shidduchim, we do need to have shadchanim ready and able to take on those situations. Some of the candidates may need some counseling or intervention to identify what did not work for them. Others need to access more shadchanim. Each single should be dealt with individually.
This may sound cruel, but there is no such intention. Occasionally, there is a boy or girl who should stay single. No, I don’t wish it on anyone. But some people lack some of the basic traits and skills needed to engage in a marriage and sustain it. Likewise, there are some families that will struggle with finding shidduchim for their children because of how they manage themselves. These are not common situations, but they are also not rare exceptions.
Bottom line – there are no two sides here, and no one is being stubborn. Just ditch the community wide approaches, and address each situation individually. Yes, that is top heavy. But this is what will work.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I will refer the following work. I know, I can’t post the link, so I will just refer. Professor William Helmreich, a professor of sociology, wrote a book The World of The Yeshiva. He himself, a Ner Yisroel graduate, spent years researching Yeshivos, by spending time in a great number of them in the late 70’s and early 80’s. He also conducted interviews with many of the Roshei Yeshivos. What I am now quoting can be found by googling William Helmreich interviews Roshei Yeshiva. For me, the paper of interviews is the first result. A question he asks most of them is about the rising rate of divorce in orthodox circles (that was in the late 70’s, not to even mention today). Rav Ruderman attributed this to 3 comments about women today being different. The 3rd is that they get married at a young age. Perhaps, there is reason for girls to wait to get married, not just to solve the age gap.
there’s a lot of picky older girls out there also. the system is set up that 99 percent of people could get married if they want to. maybe look past a bad reference or look past the school he/she went to and give it a chance. people are not a resume. if one date doesn’t work out maybe try a new angel for a second date and give it a chance.
sometimes its not mr/ms right, sometimes you have to make yourself mr/ms right
i think marriage should be like girl’s schools. that is no one can get married until everyone finds the right one.
MATURE: EDITED
Charaidim all over the world are in Shidduchim by age 20-21. (Europe & Erets Yisroel by age 20. Followers of the Chazoin Ish, and Chasidim all over the world at age 18.) That is why they don`t have a crisis. This is a mon made tragedy, that will Be”H stop when boys will be in Shidduchim by age 21.Hashem: Yes Hashem runs the world and his first command in the Torah is to get married. Halacha clearly states that he is Mechuyev to be in Shidduchim by age 20. See Even Ezer Sim. 1:3. Also see Saifer Nidchchai Yisroel from the Chofets Chaim. Perek 25.”Every day that a boy does not want to listen to Shidduchim after the age of 20, he is Oivar on the first Mitzva of the Torah.
Girls should start later: Who is going to enforce it. Since Reb Moshe Z”L there is no Poisek that the entire Yeshivish world listens to his P`Sak. Askonim went to the 2 biggest in Yerusholayim, and the 2 biggest in Bnai Brak. Rav Elyoshev, Rav Auerbach, Rav Shteinman,Z”L, and YLCH’T Reb Chaim Shlite. The all paskened boys must start younger. The recognize that the Age-Gap is the problem, and added a Lo Samod Al Dam Rayecho. Psak can be seen on Shiddichcrisis.com Daas Torah letter #3. Not that girls should start later. The boys that wait till 23, are the Balai Avaire.
ATTENTION YESHIVA BOYS AND THEIR PARENTS.
STOP CAUSING THE SHIDDUCH CRISIS AND LISTEN TO SHIDDUCHIM!!!When an issue is falsely called a “crisis”, intelligent people tune out.
There is no shidduch crisis. If girls and boys marry sometime in their 20s, there is no crisis. If they marry in their 30s , maybe they pushed it off a bit, but this is still not a crisis. If they don’t marry and as a result don’t have children, that is a crisis. During the Yom Kippur war, 2800 soldiers were killed and 5600 were wounded. That was a crisis. The chareidi world is not in crisis, at least not in the marriage arena.
There is a long list of prominent Rabbonim, including many Gedolim, who married what nowadays is considered “late.” They were not in crisis. They married when they married. Chill out.
“Charaidim all over the world are in Shidduchim by age 20-21. (Europe & Erets Yisroel by age 20. Followers of the Chazoin Ish, and Chasidim all over the world at age 18.”
Nice try. At age 27 and three months, the Chazon Ish married a much older woman whom he knew could not bear him children. They remained married till she passed away. He did not remarry.
1. Historically, men married women younger than them.
2. FFBs aren’t as open to marrying BTs as they could be.
3. Fathers and Father-in-laws shouldn’t be in the מצב of not marrying off their kids because of kollel sponsorship issues.
4. Stricter categories of working vs learning are an issue.
5. Encouraging men and women to look a certain way.
6. Lack of בטחון.
“..there’s a lot of picky older girls out there,,,”
As there SHOULD be. You don’t get married for the sake of just being with someone by a certain age. If you decide to marry, it has to be with someone you love and respect and want to share your life with. If thats being “picky” than you are doing the RIGHT thing and you shouldn’t allow any edicts from a Rav, askan, poster on social media or family pressure to pressure you into a shidduch you don’t feel comfortable with.The only issue is the math. If you believe that boys can marry girls significantly younger than them and still have everyone get married you might as well get on a loudspeaker and announce that 2+2 = 17 You are unfortunately mathematically challenged. It has zero to do with FFB, off the derech, baal teshuvah or anything else – just simple math. If an older (smaller) population is predominantly marrying into a younger (larger) population -there can not be enough girls for all the boys. So yes 2+2 remains 4 and if you don’t believe this I do feel bad.
No one has mentioned this, so I will: Scientific evidence suggests that toieva occurs in twice as many men as women. That means that there will always be more women than men looking for marriage. What has amplified the crisis is the rise of social media in the last 10 years, enabling more discussion of the impact of the excess supply of women and the resulting number of unmarried women. If the science is correct (and I am not certain that it is), then no amount of effort would to make a serious impact on the number of unmarried women.
clearly not what I meant at all.
that site has people of all backgrounds. you set up an account and browse thru the entries.
I want to bring up something I know from experience. I think a lot of the issue is the shadchanim. You may be redt shidduchim from friends and acquaintances. Great! those are the best because they know you better than the shadchanim. However the shadchanim have limited scale. They will focus on
1. Those who call them constantly and are in their faces.
2.Those who are wealthy or well connected.
If you were in business you would want to prioritize your business to the best bang for your buck, those that pay and those that give you a great name- a name brand family gives a shadchan a huge boost of recognition.
So as a parent with kids in Shidduchim (a boy) I get the ‘sponsored’ names. and those handful or so of names keep coming up again and again from all the shadchanim. Its almost like you know whose resume they are going to send- and they make it sound like ‘I have the best one perfect for your son’ meanwhile the girl is being pushed by several shadchanim. Its weird but I’m thinking that if there truly is a shidduch crisis I shouldn’t be hearing the same 20-30 names from everyone. Where are all the girls that are out there? There’s only a pool of 50 names that keep being brought up again & again?
So who is batting for the average regular person? only those who care to get them married and have the knack or ability to find the appropriate shidduch. Not easy to find, add to that unrealistic parents who are not sure what they want or know EXACTLY what they want find it hard to say yes to someone. It can be a girl or boy with some issues, or find it hard to say yes to someone (too picky!) or find it easy to say no to someone (drops too often) or who have a hard time making such a monumental decision (and it is! Its a lifetime! you don’t want to marry the wrong person, break a shidduch or worse get divorced!), this all complicates the shidduch process.Now I would speculate (and I may be wrong) that the ‘sponsored’ parents are either
1. calling the shadchanim every week and pressuring them.
2. paying a fee for them to be on the top of the pile’.So I suggest the following: if you have a girl of age, think about it. You have to support her now-somewhat. You need to marry her off and that costs $$. You sent her to some seminary in Israel that cost you an arm and a leg that you could not afford for only GD knows why, because if you don’t send her to Israel it mean she’s a ‘cripple’- because why else would any normal girl NOT go to a seminary that costs 30K (aren’t we all dying to support these places of privilege). So isn’t it worth a little more to send a shadchan or 2 a couple of dollars so you can get your name on top of the stack?
I’m just saying that the reality of the crisis is that your names are not coming through its not because the guy is 23-24. Nice try Nasi project trying to brainwash parents to marrying their son off before he is ready. (if he’s ready at 21 you don’t need nasi and if he’s not just because some guy with money wants everyone to get married at 21 for some stupid reason that won’t get me to marry my son off a day before he’s ready). I’m a parent and know my child better than Nasi so don’t push people to do something wrong for their child because you think you are GD and need to marry all frum girls & boys off- the Gomorrah talks about some rich women that started one of those campaigns that didn’t end well.
It wouldn’t be a bad idea for those askanim to employ shadchanim that are willing to work for the average girls who don’t get press. Perhaps there are people that have talent with shidduchim where They are employed and can make a living wage to specifically work for those who don’t have the ability to get to the ‘celebrity’ shadchanim.“Maybe all the single girls should make a mass aliyah to Israel where the boys start dating at 19 or 20.”
Any pretense of a serious discussion on this topic has been forsaken.
“Any pretense of a serious discussion on this topic has been forsaken”
Until there is some consensus on the statement of the problem, there is unlikely to be a “serious” discussion of solutions.“Maybe all the single girls should make a mass aliyah to Israel where the boys start dating at 19 or 20.”
Considering that the girls go there for Seminary, it might not be a bad idea.
Unfortunately, the boys in Israel are (mostly) Israelis who speak Hebrew. You are signing up for communication problems unless you speak Hebrew a lot better than the average girl. And the culture shock from suddenly being part of an Israeli family won’t be easy to deal with either.
And yes, I am including the out-of-town Boys who are in Lakewood when I say there are more older boys than older girls in Lakewood.
IMHO, Chaim Shulem has the right idea. The key phrase is “there was no money from the in-laws.” So where did they get the money to pay the rent? Probably from the girl’s job. She probably married him on the condition that he learn a profession and get a job. Between the two of them, they are able to pay the bills.
And that is my advice to you, opionated-2. If you can pay the bills based on your employment, you will probably be able to find someone “normal” who wants to marry you.
Of course, if you really want to make Aliyah, don’t let me stop you.
I protest the violation of math in this topic: boys looking to marry younger girls does not cause the (alleged) imbalance – at the end 1 boy marries 1 girl. It is actually to the girl’s advantage: when she wants to get married, she has – for a short time – a large selection of candidates of different ages. This is old as world.
As a late 20’s single who is still in the פרשה of שידוכים, I can say the following:
1. I admit to have been more picky that needed.
2. I have been told that because of my B”T background, some parents were skeptical of me dating their daughters.
3. I was told that I’d find better learning and dating opportunities in Israel.
4. Paying for a dating site means nothing since you have no way of knowing if you’ll actually get anywhere. Having a resume/profile is good enough.
5. Some שדכנים don’t understand basic, human compatibility.
*Remember that it’s all from Hashem.
From my experience dating years ago, both through a Shadchan and through the first frum dating websites:
There is no shidduch crisis. Period. If there is a crisis, it is a problem of extremely meddlesome (and incredibly selfish) parents as well as young adults maturing much later in life.
@ZSK you sound very naïve discrediting the experiences of thousands of girls based on your own experiences.
I am 28 years old and I recently got married. There are around 10 unmarried girls in my grade. Most of these girls are my friends, as we became closer over the years. All of these girls are pretty, talented, and personable. Most of these girls are also looking for a frum, solid, boy with a plan which unfortunately is very difficult to find. The grades below me are also filled with girls in similar predicaments. As the years pass and these girls accumulate, a crisis is formed. My experience in shidduchim was pathetic. Mothers of boys were obsessed with my parent’s income and social standing. The shadchanim in my community are maxed out. My husband (who is my age) and his friends had a very different experience. They were constantly sent resumes, and of course, the boys are the ones to approve of or nix a suggestion. They took long, leisurely breaks. There is a definite double standards where girls must have their entire lives figured out by the time they are 20, and boys can wait until they are 32 to think potential ways to support a family.
I don’t know what makes me more upset, the fact that many, many girls have slimmer and slimmer chances of getting married as the years pass, or that a frum jew with a heart has the audacity to deny their existence.@ZSK just because you were zocheh to get married quickly and without much trouble does not mean that there is no shidduch crisis. I have a then 23-year-old brother (who has gotten married since) who was in the Parsha at the same time as my then 22-year-old sister (now married also), and my mother would constantly be getting calls redting shidduchim for my brother, who had just started dating and had to chase after boys for my sister who had been dating for 2 years. I know other people who have been in the same situation. Remember that other people have challenged even if you cannot relate to them.
The above 28 year old is exactly what I was saying about kollel culture and wanting girls with rich parents. This is an upside down understanding of limud hatorah. Our sages learned without this “system”.
Also, I come from an environment were both men and women had to figure out their lives at a younger age. FFB communities with such a problem is a result of a failed culture. However, I don’t know if every community in the frum world is like this.
>> Maybe all girls should be encouraged to go to Shana Bet
There were comments here,when Covid started, that this could be a good excuse to skip seminaries. For those who do not need seminary for their future jobs, why can’t the girls skip Shana Alef and get professional education? You can do online or local college BS in 3 years. What is the the effect on shiduchim?
I think the crisis people have isn’t a crisis in shidduchim but a crisis in society as a whole. Whether it’s how people look at finance or how people look at relationships as a whole. Western society is decaying.
Want to know more idealistic solutions:
1. Not encourage women to pursue an education and instead, marry a man who has skills
2. Not frown upon someone who learns and works (which many of our sages did)P.S. Men tend to marry women their age or younger but rarely older.
@Anongirl – First of all, mazel tov. Second, I’m a man. Third, I got married at 25, which is about average. Fourth, thanks for judging. I’m from OOT and where I’m from, all the girls are sent to Baltimore and New York to get married and are strongly discouraged from dating anyone local. Rare is the local Shidduch (I only know of one off-hand). That meant I had to resort to dating websites and Shadchanim. You may be too young to be familiar with Frumster and Saw You at Sinai. I met my wife through the former while getting constantly rejected on the latter. Shadchanim told me to get lost.
In my dating experience, there was always some excuse on the girl’s end and it almost always was due to parental meddling. I always found this out after the fact. To the parents (especially those of Rabbinic stock), it didn’t matter that I went to college full-time, worked a full-time job, went to minyan 3x a day and still spent 3-4 hours in the local Beis Midrash at night before going home and doing schoolwork. Never mind that I had life basically figured out by the time I was 23. What mattered was the fact that I wasn’t “mainstream” so I was rejected by parents. And, guess what? Fathers of girls are also obssessed with social standing.
My point: You want to solve the problem? 1) Parents should let their kids date and not get involved unless there is good reason to (i.e., there’s an obvious problem with one of the parties involved, an imminent engagement, etc.). (2) Sometimes the guy who isn’t “mainstream” may be exactly what you’re looking for, even if you don’t think so at the moment. Stop nixing guys who aren’t mainstream.
@Shmil_O Ongar – See above. Actually, I was one of the last people in my social crowd to get married. Also, to be very blunt, 22-23 is young, even if the Chassidish and Yeshivish world thinks that is old.
There was a line in “Binah” magazine last week that I’ve been saying for years. “If there’s a Shidduch crisis, it’s not causes by bachurim who don’t know a size 6 from 2, it’s caused by their mothers.”
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