Shidduch Issue in Israel

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  • #590706

    pookie
    Member

    I just heard its an acceptible thing for the parents of a girl in eretz yisrael to put down 150 thousand dollars towards an apartment in order for her to get married. Is that normal? shouldn’t we put an end to it? why cant the boys parents also put down 150 thousand dollars?

    #684564

    Phyllis
    Member

    I once met this woman in Israel and she told me that she had just been to NY for a wedding. SHe said the diff btwn us and u is that we make very simple weddings, no fancy meal or elegant flowers bec we put the money towards the young couple – for an apt. et. While you make super expensive weddings and then the young couple has to manage ontheir own, paying rent etc…

    #684565

    skates
    Member

    i heard about that…well not sure about 150,000 but definitely s/thing about a girl side being responsible for purchasing the apartment…

    #684566

    onlyemes
    Member

    This is a complex topic. I will summarize the salient points (i.e. the rules of the game).If you don’t abide by the rules you can’t play the game. The Roshei Yeshiva combined with peer pressure enforce the rules.

    1. Given: The mentality in Israel is different than in Chutz la’aretz.

    2. The previous and current generation of yeshivishe Jewry has placed finding a good learning boy for your daughter as the highest life priority by far.

    3. Good boys cost good money. The boy is selling the product (himself) and the girl is the buyer. It is a seller’s market.

    4. A top boy gets an apartment plus enough money to live for “x” years (siddur mallai). Better boy, bigger “x”.

    5.It doesn’t matter where the money comes from, either you have it or you don’t.

    6.If you don’t have the money, you may settle for a second tier boy. Less money, lower level boy.

    7. The system as described above is currently collapsing for obvious reasons.

    #684567

    tzippi
    Member

    How do you propose WE put an end to it. Why should we? I think we can feel sad about it but I don’t think this thread is going to be constructive at all, IMO, and I hope the mods watch it carefully.

    #684568

    Rochelimeinu
    Member

    Is this a marketplace or Shidduchim?

    Are you talking about people or merchandise?

    #684569

    truthsharer
    Member

    And that is why they come collecting for money, which is NOT hachnasas kallah.

    #684570

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Good boys cost good money. The boy is selling the product (himself) and the girl is the buyer. It is a seller’s market.

    This sounds so wrong on so many levels…

    The Wolf

    #684571

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Even in America I’ve heard people ask mothers of daughters, “How much did you pay for your son-in-law?” Especially if he’s on the “A list.”

    #684573

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    The way to put an end to it is to not contribute money towards it.

    #684574

    question
    Member

    are the roshei yeshiva taking responsibility for the many fathers of girls who can’t handle the financial pressure and have heart attacks r”l? and then afterwards there are yesomim to marry off so it’s a mitzvah to give them money…

    #684575

    Where does this money come from? Oh my- does this mean that the girl’s father WORKS? Has relatives that work?

    I do not feel that it is hachnasas kallah to provide an apartment, money to live on ect for the couple. hachnasas kallah is normally thought of for girls and boys who have either no family or a tragic life story that they cannot afford basics. Having a 150,000 dollar apartment paid for is not basic! What happened to the couple needing to provide for themselves? I understand supporting for a couple years, especially if he is a real scholar and illui.

    If these boys dont work and have no income as they are being supported by their parents, how will they marry their children off? they dont have money to provide for an apartment! So, the grandparents will pay. what about when they cannot work anymore, run out of money or are niftar?

    #684576

    Helping pay a dowry IS Hachnoso Kallah, whether the dowry is cash or an apartment.

    #684577

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    EDITED

    Many of these people who may be giving oney for “hacnossas kallaH’ that geos to buy an apartment, do NOT have any apartment themselves. Why should they buy an asset for someon else when they don’t have one themselves???

    #684578

    rob, your comparison is absurd. You CAN donate something you don’t have to fulfill the mitzvah of tzedaka or hachnosos kallah. i.e. You can give a poor couple a microwave even if you don’t have one – and you still fulfilled the mitzvah.

    Some people, perhaps not yourself, DO like to make others happy even with things they may themselves not have or even need.

    Additionally, the hachnosos kallah is to allow the kallah to fulfill her dowry requirements to her choson. Since you don’t have something doesn’t mean you should let the shidduch fall through since the kallah is unable to fulfill her dowry. This plain and simple basic Hachnosos Kallah.

    #684579

    pookie
    Member

    tzippi thanks for the support

    #684580

    pookie
    Member

    onlyemes don’t you want to put an end to all of that which you have said

    #684581

    tzippi
    Member

    Pookie, your message was ambivalent. Not sure how to take it. Either

    a) you’re welcome 😉

    b) not trying to get this thread closed, just wondering if you’ve thought more about this and have any constructive ideas, your own or others’ you’ve heard.

    #684582

    “…why cant the boys parents also put down 150 thousand dollars?”

    How about NEITHER side puts down the $$$ and people get married when they can demonstrate that they can (by and large) support themselves? The economics of the “marriage model” the OP described is unsustainable.

    #684583

    pookie
    Member

    ”Pookie, your message was ambivalent”

    what part of it was ambivalent?

    #684584

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mezonos maven- you are welcome to do this mitzvah any way you want to. My point is that you are buying a major asset for people with money from people who do not have it themselves. Why not buy a house for couples HERE in the USA? Thye could us it too! I think it is highly dishonest to collect money for couples in Israel from people who will NEVER have the same house or apartment!

    #684585

    tzippi
    Member

    Pookie, which struck you as the more appropriate response to your “thanks for your support”? If b, and you were at all tongue in cheek, please add my request for mechila to my previous post.

    #684586

    mybat
    Member

    In mexico people have to buy their children apartments when they get married.

    #684587

    ronrsr
    Member

    How much do apartments go for there in Mexico?

    #684588

    rwndk1
    Member

    As someone who lives in Eretz Yisrael, let me explain a few things. Israelis have a different mentality than we Americans (yes, after 20 yrs. I still consider myself American – thank G-d). Everyone here assumes that the other is trying to take advantage of them and therefore want to protect themselves. Everything here is also more business-like. I have spoken to many families about this, given that my children are nearing shidduch-age, and if you are not comfortable with forking out so much money or squeezing someone dry for all they have, you don’t need to buy into this. If you would rather get to know your child’s potential in-laws rather than worry about their bank account, that is also fine. There are plenty of other people who feel the same way – don’t make an issue out of it, just tell shadchanim that you will be happy to discuss money when things are getting serious, so long as the mechutanim feel the same way and have bitachon that something will work out – even if not an apt. in Yerushalayim, and respectfully tell the Rosh Yeshiva to mind his own business.

    The sad part is that many people think there is no alternative and put themselves in the poorhouse for this. I have spoken to many people who have bought their children apts. in a cheaper part of the Negev, etc. Like everything in life and in Yiddishkeit, you must do what you are comfortable with. Just as a person may not be comfortable with certain chumros and hanhagos, they need not buy into this.

    By the way the same goes for you Americans (this I don’t identify with) who feel they have to make a fancy wedding, I have American relatives who made simple weddings because that is what they could afford. My boys’ Bar Mitzvahs were homemade food for the seudah for a small crowd, and a simple kiddush after davening on Shabbos – that is what we could afford and that is what we did.

    #684589

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    rwndk1- ‘ashrechu”. you hit it on the head. tell people to- DO NOT DO ANYTHING THAT YOU DON”T FEEL YOU CAN DO- either by spending a fortune on a chassuno or thinking that you have to buy an apartment and mortgage your life for it. This is unconsionable and should be avoided.

    This is how I acted within my own family,regardless of what was offered to me.

    EDITED

    #684590

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    A friend of mine, an Otisviller Chossid, solved the problem by cutting his new aydem in on one of his better scams. Since he was in Otisville anyway, he did not need his second home. He had it put on his aydem’s name and gave it to the new couple, who never married so that the husband rented it to the wife who had no income and got section 8. The section 8 went to pay off the shver’s mortgage while he was sitting, and all were very happy.

    In due time the aydem and daughter were caught too and ended up in Federal housing (free without section 8 and with a kollel for the husband) for a couple of years themselves while the shver/father was released. Now, the father/shver needed a halfway house paid for by section 8 so where did he end up – back in his own house having fetter Shmeel paying off the tail end of his mortgage.

    #684592

    fabie
    Member

    In the Litvishe circles the standard is 2/3 – girls side, 1/3 boys side, but there are always deviations. Parents like myself are pretty much forced into buying their children a dira, which is app. $225,000 and up in the newer out of town areas – Beitar, Beit Shemesh, Kiryat Sefer, Elad, etc. The kids may get part of mortgage themselves, so you can do the homework. I’ve married two, and so far have gone into heavy debt with far less then the amount you mentioned, which to me is outrageous in itself.

    #684593

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Parents like myself are pretty much forced

    No one forces you to do anything.

    The Wolf

    #684594

    fabie
    Member

    No one forces you to do anything.

    As I said, I’ve gotten out very reasonable so far but it’s easier said then done. If you live in the states, I guess you could send to public school. The reality is almost everyone pays for their children’s expenses in Eretz Yisroel, in our circle, although things are starting to change.

    #684595

    koma
    Member

    rwndk1: What you describe as the “more businesslike” Israeli mindset, is what I call a lebedik velt, an anything goes, midos deficient hardness of people playing hardball, borne of a hardscrabble life. It is not anything near what a yid should be, hard realities or not. My two marrieds, A listers, are living in rented flats at the largess of my machatonim, God bless them. The insecurity dose not bother them, and this itself is a level midos that I doubt you would find in the siddur maleniks.

    #684596

    dvorak
    Member

    Just wondering: Do the amounts really come up to 150k? What ever happened to a down payment and a mortgage? If you’re putting 150 as the DOWN, at least by American standards of how much is generally put down, we are talking about one heckuva dira.

    #684597

    fabie
    Member

    If you’re putting 150 as the DOWN, at least by American standards of how much is generally put down, we are talking about one heckuva dira.

    Prices in Jerusalem are well over the $150K range. Starting more like $300K. Outside of Jerusalem generally about $225K. A $150K downpayment might not be that much.

    #684598

    squeak
    Participant

    dvorak-

    Down payment? How much of a loan do you think they qualify for? If I were a bank loaning money to people whose only income was a stipend per child and chaluka, I wouldn’t lend more than the equity. With 150 paid for and a value of 300, I might (only might) lend the other 150.

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