Shidduchim between FFB and BT’s

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  • #1724623

    rebyonoson
    Participant

    Would you be comfortable with having your son/daughter marry a BT? Why/Why not?

    #1724775

    Joseph
    Participant

    Would you be comfortable with having your Litvish son/daughter marry a Satmar chosid?

    Would you be comfortable with having your Yekkish son/daughter marry a Teimani?

    #1724822

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Would you be comfortable with having your son/daughter marry a BT? Why/Why not?

    Yes, I would be comfortable.

    1. When my children get married, they will be old enough to judge a person’s character and decide his or her merits based on their actions and middos, not the circumstances of their birth.

    2. I, myself, am a ba’al teshuva and am married to someone who is frum from birth.

    The Wolf

    #1724840

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph

    My Oma was uncomfortable with my Yekke mother marrying my Litvak father for more than 50 years until she died. She referred to Litvaks as peasants from the east.

    I would have problems with any of my children or grandchildren (my kids are marrieds) marrying anyone whose ideology opposes the State if Israel.

    #1724851

    rebyonoson
    Participant

    @joseph if their middos are good and they come from a good family… i wouldn’t be so against it. But thats not an answer to the question as BTs can still be the same haskofo

    #1724863

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    They are all Jews,no? If you have a problem with of these “marriages”, you are in need of some serious soul searching.

    #1724873

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s a good idea. Most BT’s and gerim are not 100% integrated by the time they’re 20-25 years old. They maintain a lot of their weird quirks and judgementalism for the first several years.

    I think there’s an argument that marrying a FFB or a semi-FFB would accelerate the integration, but I’m not sure that task should fall on a normal (non-kiruv) person unless they really want it to.

    #1724883

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    2. I, myself, am a ba’al teshuva and am married to someone who is frum from birth.

    Ditto

    #1724885

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL, there’s no great cultural divide between Litvaks and Yekkes. Which is why I didn’t use that combination as one of my examples.

    How about a Bucharian marrying a Brisker?

    #1724888

    Joseph
    Participant

    Or a Morracan Jew with a Hungarian Jew.

    #1724907

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    Why can’t the children decide what’s best for them? They are after all, of age.

    #1724908

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    Neville, that is a horrible generalization to make.

    #1724914

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “They are all Jews,no? If you have a problem with of these “marriages”, you are in need of some serious soul searching.”
    So, you’d be fine marrying a Reform Jew, I assume? They are all Jews, no?

    #1724975

    catch yourself
    Participant

    @Neville:
    “So, you’d be fine marrying a Reform Jew, I assume? They are all Jews, no?”
    At best, that’s a straw man argument. At worst, you are equating all Torah-observant Jews who are different from yourself with Reform Jews.
    The point Jewish1 was making was that the differences between Jews of all these varying streams are actually much less important than the similarities. Therefore, the general question, “Would you marry X type of Jew?” is much less important than the specific question, “Would you marry this particular Jew?”
    Of course, in the case of a Torah-observant Jew marring a Reform Jew, the similarities are, unfortunately, decidedly less important than the differences.
    To be sure, this in no way undermines the love, care, and concern we ought to have for our irreligious brethren; it simply renders us incompatible with them for building a home together.

    #1724978

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    I repeat…. that is a horrible generalization to make.
    Big problem in society today…..its called identity politics. BT, FFB, Gerim etc. You probably wouldn’t have let your daughter marry Rabbi Akiva, or your son marry Rut Hamoavia.

    #1724979

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So, you’d be fine marrying a Reform Jew, I assume? They are all Jews, no?

    There are reform jews who have better midos than FFB’s

    #1725082

    I think a better question is would you be comfortable with having your son/daughter marry a Jew from another race (e.g. a Black Jew or an Oriental Jew)? Why/Why not? They are 100% Jewish, even FFB but can you get over the colour of their skin or shape of their eyes? If you can’t – are you a “racist”? Maybe this needs a separate thread!

    #1725049

    jewish1: we dont allow them to set up their own dates even though they are of age.

    #1725186

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I would be fine with Ethiopian and even Ashkenazi

    #1725232

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: “Even”? As in second choice?

    #1725278

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    בדיעבד

    #1725300

    LOTR92
    Participant

    Neville, I don’t think you fully understand BTs. There are some BTs that you can’t even tell they are BT, like a rav I know, and there are some you can. Since BTs fully change their life around to become frum, that shows #1 extreme commitment #2 a fuller understanding of torah values, because they have lived the other “side” and found it lacking, then found a better way. FFBs never lived the other “side” so they don’t fully understand how good this way of life is. BTs aren’t perfect by a long shot, and BTs that have just become frum can have some of the issues you mentioned, but not for long. Maybe you should talk to someone in kiuv and findout more about BTs. (And even if they don’t look the same as you doesn’t mean they are bad people.)

    #1725304

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: If they are here בדיעבדs to you, you similarly accept others who would say it’s a בדיעבד for them to marry another group (Sefardim, BT or whatever)?

    #1725320

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    LOT:
    As has been discussed before on the CR, the logic of what you’re saying sounds good, but it’s not the reality. BT’s are far more likely to go OTD than FFB’s. I don’t think it’s entirely their fault, but it’s clearly how it is.

    The fact is, most BT’s start around college time. They aren’t going to reach the point of “I can’t believe it’s not FFB!” within 3 or 4 years. The traditional kiruv system (excluding Chabad) does not put a big emphasis on integration. They just assume BTs will magically know how to integrate after they leave yeshiva, which is why half the time they end up hopelessly lost afterwards and go OTD. None of this is their fault. It’s a broken system.

    When they do try to shidduch BT’s with FFB’s, we all know we aren’t talking about right-wing, Lakewood-style FFB’s.

    As a side note, from what I’ve seen, Chabad’s system does emphasize integration, and it produces successful BT/FFB marriages (albeit, maybe not BT/Gezhe).

    edited – Did you really think we would let that through?

    #1725348

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I don’t see what you edited out. Did I typo a swear or something by accident?

    #1725345

    huju
    Participant

    OK, time for an old joke (prompted by CTlawyer’s mention of Yekkes): What do you get when a Yekke marries a Chabadnik: Children who are exactly an hour late.

    #1725357

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neveille: You probably wrote something “too right-wing”.

    #1725373

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @huju

    Rav Breuer ZT”L had a nephew who was raised by Chassidim after the war and moved to New Square where he B”H raised a wonderful family who are still very respected in Skver today. But whever there was a Skver Breuer simcha confusion would reign. Half the crowd would show up exactly when the invitation said things would start, and they would mill around in increasing irritation wondering why nobody was there.

    #1725385

    18Forever
    Participant

    I don’t see a problem with it. BH to all the amazing Rabbis and Rebbenises that help me to be who I am today may be Gabached . I myself may a BT for over 14 years. Went to s Seminary to learn more about the yiddishkit my husband grew up dati laumi style. him and I today are very frum we do lot of things that regualrt ffb dont do (not that i trying to brag or show off )people who see us cannot even believe for the slightest moment that we are BT and are past. My boys go to a very yishavish school and my girls also. I don’t like telling people that I am BT because people can be very judgemental (I won’t say everyone is like this) I get labeled and my kids and have hard times when I went to certain people or places. Unfortunately sometimes we as people cuz this labeling issue. Unfortunately we miss the bigger picture and seeing how people are today. A lot of people would be shocked to know how many grandparent parent and regular people are BT but don’t speak about it openly. And I disagree with the notion that BT go a lot more off the D it’s is happening in every sect and group. I hope I didn’t offend anyone and if I did I’m sorry that wasn’t my intention (I useally don’t like writing posts)

    #1725407

    monseyshechita
    Participant

    From my experience, it works, but usally the FFB spouse is coming from an Americanishe background. In the more Heimeshe velt I don’t see it as much

    #1725645

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @rebbitzen
    #1 Oriental refers to objects NOT people. You have Oriental Rugs, but Asian people.
    This is a pet peeve of mine, its use is bigoted and ignorant.
    #2 I have posted before that youngest CTL daughter was born and adopted in China (at birth). On the advice of our Rav we adopted a child of another race to avoid all problems of mamzerut later on.
    Raised FFB, she always considered herself Jewish first, then American. She never checked race on forms, leaving it blank.

    She had no problem with shidduchim, and was in high demand. She has a BSRN, a MS in accounting and a JD, admitted to both NY and CT bars and came with high earning potential, no student debt, etc.

    Not once was her race raised as an issue or objection to a date, she turned suitors away, Mrs. CTL and I turned golddiggers away. In the end, a female Jewish law professor fixed her up with a frum male law student (he attended yeshiva in Brooklyn before college and law school) and it was a fine match. Both sets of the parents were thrilled with the choice. They both now work in my law firm. Race was not and is not a issue.

    #1725651

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” Oriental refers to objects NOT people. You have Oriental Rugs, but Asian people.
    This is a pet peeve of mine, its use is bigoted and ignorant.”

    Except when you say Asian, you actually mean Chinese/Japanese/Korean Asians. There are practical reasons to use the words Brown and Oriental, and most real Asians prefer not being lumped together. Unfortunately, white liberals such as yourself are aggressively trying to make it impossible to say anything by pretending you speak for other races, as usual… you don’t. edited slightly.

    “Neveille: You probably wrote something “too right-wing”.”
    Probable, but I don’t recall it being anything like that. Another easy way to get edited is by saying something that we all know is true about the Litvishe velt, but this site would prefer to censor it the same way chabad sites censor meshichism.

    That’s one way to shift the blame.

    #1725650

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL: Having already had nautral children, what motivated you to adopt?

    #1725675

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “That’s one way to shift the blame.”
    From whom to whom? Me to you? If I say something that’s true about the yeshivish world, but it’s a “hard to swallow pill” and the mods decide that it’s better off kept under wraps, then I don’t consider there to be one side objectively at fault.

    If one believes that we should hide our issues from the rest of the world like Chabad does, then I’m to “blame” for daring to say it in the first place. If one believes that forums like the CR should be a medium to discuss real issues, then I think there’s an argument to be made for not censoring out that stuff. Clearly, that isn’t how YWN holds.

    If it’s your policy, I’m not saying you’re doing anything wrong by modding those types of comments. But, when you let people expose just about anything in other groups, you can expect people to be surprised when the censorship is stricter on Litvish exposes. It would do good to just call a duck a duck: this is a extremely partisan site. Nothing wrong with that as long as you’re honest about it.

    Things aren’t modded because of being “bitter pills to swallow “.  You assume that based on your lack of clarity over either what you said along with your ‘point’, or, as is most often the case, your incorrect assumption about why it was deleted. Which I think has been brought up several times.

    #1725713

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    It may be just my own limited experience, but I sense the younger generation, especially in EY is less fixated on parental approval of these “mixed” marriages whether it involve, BTs, different chassidus, litvish/chassidish, or other traditional parameters that tended to “silo” shiduchin within the same family backgrounds. Some of this is the result of more education and travel among this younger generation which has exposed them to a wider range of backgrounds. There is also less hostility and more open and welcoming attitudes within many segments of the tzibur in relation to “outsiders”.

    #1725712

    smn
    Participant

    Based on the question and the responses, it seems to me, that some people are lacking in the belief, (emunah), that all matches are made by G-d, everything is bashert; do you really think you can “allow or disallow” your child from marrying their bashert?? Most often, the parents who interfere with G-d’s plan, live to regret their actions. As long as neither side is compromising halacha by the choice, there should be no issue at all.

    #1725723

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Neville
    You are WRONG
    The change from Oriental to Asian, didn’t come from white liberals, read the following:
    “American English
    ” American English speakers consider the term “Oriental” to be a pejorative and disparaging term when used to describe a person[1]. John Kuo Wei Tchen, director of the Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute at New York University, said the basic criticism of the term developed in the U.S. in the 1970s. Tchen has said: “With the U.S.A. anti-war movement in the ’60s and early ’70s, many Asian Americans identified the term ‘Oriental’ with a Western process of racializing Asians as forever opposite ‘others’.”[19] In a 2009 American press release related to legislation aimed at removing the term “oriental” from official documents of the State of New York, Governor David Paterson said: “The word ‘oriental’ does not describe ethnic origin, background or even race; in fact, it has deep and demeaning historical roots”.[20]

    In 2016, President Barack Obama signed legislation striking the word from federal law.[21]”

    President Obama, is mixed race, not white, Director Tchen is not white.
    I was asked not to use the term by a Japanese math professor I had in college in 1972.

    When I use Asian to refer to people I am referring to all East Asian ans Southeast Asian people from many more countries than you list,
    When referring to Indo-Paks, Bengladeshis and Ceylonese I use the term Southern Asian, Southwest Asian refers to people from traditional Arab and/or Islamic lands.
    Central Asian refers to the ‘real’ Caucasians (those from beyond the Caucasus Mountains in the former USSR and nearby regions

    #1725727

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    The short reason is that our then only daughter wanted a sister and after 9 years of no additional children, this solved the problem.
    More than that is more personal than belongs in the CR

    #1725742

    justme22
    Participant

    Each Baal Tshuva is different each ffb is different.
    How long since the bt bacame frum ? Does the ffb feel very different and feels weird about the bt views ? Or does the ffb actually appreciates the sincerity or other possible pluses of the bt? Has the bt attended yeshiva ?
    Some parents will even feel weird about the boys parents been bts when a kid was ffb.. so many factors …
    I know of girls who want someone a big different than regular ffb, and I know of bts who don’t want ffb.

    #1725746

    comments
    Participant

    Most BT’s descend from families who immigrated before the war, and most FFB’s descend from those who immigrated after the war. The effects of the war on those families last until today. The abuse in yeshivas and many FFB homes is a result of the trauma inflicted by the nazis, yemach shemom. (To be fair, it is improving today. My husband said he was greeted every day to cheder with a potch, and today they give out candies – but I know for a fact that serious abuse still goes on.) It is generally better for a BT to marry a BT to avoid marrying a person who inherited “issues” from the war generation.

    #1725748

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Adopted fron birrh converted children have no problem getting married if they were brought up in a religious family.

    #1725768

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “your incorrect assumption about why it was deleted.”
    So, nu? Why was it deleted? If you don’t tell us the reason how are we supposed to do anything other than assume?

    I would be happy to give more “clarity,” but why wouldn’t you just mod that out also?

    #1725769

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    To either clarify or prove my point that you are modding to cover-up problems I believe this is the point that bothered you:

    The Litvish velt has a shidduch crisis that produces a surplus of single FFB girls who were not able to find a FFB boy to marry. The corresponding kiruv system focuses disproportionately on males and uses these desperate girls as tools to lock in the BTs who otherwise have a decent OTD rate. My opinion is that this practice is immoral.

    #1725779

    Health
    Participant

    NDC -“I don’t think it’s a good idea”

    Biggest mistake I ever made. All those posters who think it’s a good idea, are probably BT’s.

    #1725780

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Some mixed race people are white.

    #1725783

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL: One of OED’e definitions of Oriental is “A person of East Asian descent.” As such the idea of it being offensive is of recent vintage (20th century). It was long used in an inoffensive manner until the PC police decided it needed to be stricken.

    #1725815

    CTL, Since my ancestors came from Russia, so I guess I must be…Asian??!! I get acupuncture treatment the mainstream of Oriental Medicine (not Asian Medicine) and Oriental medicinal herbs. Did you ever hear of the Oriental Express, Obama didn’t change the name of the train to Asian Express. Agatha Christie must be told that the title of her book should henceforth be, Murder on the Asian Express.

    #1725945

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Rebbetzin

    Nice try, but no cigar

    I explained Oriental applied to things, not people and gave the example of the rug. Your medicine would be Oriental…correct use of the word
    As for your forebears fro Russia, the Pale was in Europe, not Asia. In general Jews did not live west of the Urals, unless banished to Siberia as punishment or in a 25 year conscription in the Tsar’s army. Yes, there were a few exceptions.

    I have the Russian Imperial passport my paternal side used to come to America. It was issued in what is now Belarus…EUROPE.
    The name of the train is ORIENT , no ‘al’ Agatha Christies is long dead, no one cam tell her to change anything!
    Your response was pure foolishness (or ignorant) and proved that you are insensitive and uncaring

    #1725950

    The Oriental identify them as “from the East”. Occidental (called Caucasian) means those “from the West”. The Oriental traditionally come from bnei Ketura, Avroham Avinu’s children that he sent them kedma – East. They have many traditions from Avroham including genetic midos.

    #1725952

    A brief google search will show articles by orientals denouncing Obama’s removal of oriental from federal acts because oriental prefer to be called so, rather then being called asians. It is the white man’s (or those with white mans mentality) hang up not to use the name oriental.

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