January 17, 2023 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2157067
We have the well known issue in the Litvish/Yeshivish world of there being too few boys to find shidduchim for all the girls. There’s a disparity in numbers with their being a significantly higher number of girls than boys. As a result, even if every boy got married, a solid percentage of the girls will find it mathematically impossible to get married.
Yet there is a less well known issue in the Chasidish world where there are too many boys, yet too few girls. As a result of this inversed problem that is faced by the Litvish, by the Chasidish even if every girl got married it will still be mathematically impossible for every boy to get married.
The above assumes the Chasidish and Litvish shidduch worlds are separate and disparate. But what if we start thinking a little bit out of the box and make significant efforts to marry Chasidish boys with Yeshivish girls? We could, to use the old euphemism, kill two birds with one stone (no pun intended.) We’d, at least somewhat, alleviate the shidduch crises of both worlds.
Now, it is true that the above described crisis in the Chasidish world is much less pronounced than the inverse crisis in the Yeshivish world. I don’t know the exact numbers of comparative disparities in numbers between males and females in each of the velts, but it is also true that the Chasidish demographic has a higher population count than the Litvish demographic. So even if there’s less of a percentage disparity among Chasidim, in real numbers that will still represent a larger number of excess boys.
Of course, regardless of how close or far the number of excess Chasidish boys is to excess Litvish girls, any effort in this regard can only help. Whatever number of Chasidish boys that marry Yeshivish girls, it is that much ahead we are in reducing the shidduch crisis resulting from the disparity in figures between boys and girls.
Constructive ideas, suggestions, criticisms and avenues on how to forge ahead with this initiative are more than welcome.January 17, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2157122
What is your data source for the “inverted” gender disparities in the Chassidish velt and is this disparity prevalent among all chassidus or concentrated among specific chassidus for explainable reasons.January 17, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2157117
It would be constructive if we do an actual count before making such far-reaching conclusions. Of course that would only be if we are interested in the truth.January 17, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2157114AviraDeArahParticipant
I know of a few such shidduchim, but in my experience, you’ll have an easier time getting a litvishe family to agree to a chassidishe shidduch than vice versa. Chassidim stress family background and yichus much more than litvishe do – you’ll find many BT’s and formerly modern litvishe who have no problem getting shidduchim if they are mainstreamed for a significant amount of time and aren’t noticeably different than their peers. Not so by chasidim, by and large.
Also, litvishe girls aren’t used to the strictures of chasidishe life, and likely will not be willing to take on their standards of tznius and avoidance of things like secular books – granted many, many yeshivishe girls are already totally separated from goyishe influence, but a good many aren’t, and are still frum enough to fit into the Bais Yaakov community. Litvishe girls also do not speak yiddish. They also would not take kindly to being referred to as “her-tzi” instead of their name, or sitting away from their husband when there are guests at home on Shabbos.
I’m not saying any of that is bad, it’s just a different mindset, and those differences can ruin a shidduch.January 17, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2157111lakewhutParticipant
On average chasidish boys will come off as too controlling to litvish girls. The inverse makes more sense.January 17, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2157105yaakov doeParticipant
UJM, What is the basis of your assertion that there is a shortage of girls among chassidim? Assuming the proportion of male to female births is close to 50% among all Jews, why do you think the numbers differ between chassidim and misnagdin?
Nothing wrong with this kind of intermarriage. What is the ration of boys to girls among the Sefardim, and Bucharians?January 17, 2023 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2157183
This may come as a shock but Litvish and Chassidish families don’t just have differing customs, their entire upbringing, mindset and outlook is very different from birth. For example, expecting Litvish girls to adapt themselves to Chassidish restrictions makes such matches unlikely to work. Your numerous posts indicate that you have no problem with girls suddenly being told they can no longer drive, earn a college degree or work in a chosen profession. However, they and their parents would take strong exception to such mandates.
Not to say it never happens, just as marriages occur between Ashkenazim and Sefardim as do those between people from very different communities. But as a wholesale solution, it’s as “pants and skirt” as your insistence that everyone ditch dating in favor of be-shows.January 17, 2023 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2157205Yserbius123Participant
On one hand, I don’t know if non-Chassidishe girls would be willing to shave their hair and wear a tichel. On the other hand, tav l’meisav tan du m’l’meisav armelah.January 17, 2023 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2157253Amil ZolaParticipant
I’m still waiting for a source to validate Joes claims.January 17, 2023 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2157287
“Assuming the proportion of male to female births is close to 50% among all Jews, why do you think the numbers differ between chassidim and misnagdin?”
Silly question. As Reb Yosef has previously noted, he is open to relaxing cherem R’ Gershon such that an ehrliche yid could have 2 or 3 wives. Clearly without even addressing the Litvish vs. Chassidish complications the current pool of eligible bnos yisroel is inadequate to support the polygamous lifestyle to which he aspires (absent a substantial number of bochurim changing their preferred pronouns).January 17, 2023 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2157276
As far as the arguments that there is too great a cultural difference between Chasidim and Yeshivish families for cross shidduchim to be viable, you are overlooking the fact that among both the Chasidish world and the Yeshivish world there’s such a wide disparity *within each* as far as cultural norms. On different ends of both spectrums there are certainly both Chasidim and Yeshivish that are not that far off from each other; and perhaps even very close to each other, culturally and religiously. Sometimes the biggest or even only difference might be levush (attire).
Aside from the above point, suppose there was a notable cultural difference between the two… If the risk is marrying someone with some cultural differences versus the risk of never getting married, I’m certain many singles and their families will choose to marry with cultural changes rather than growing old alone and never marrying.January 17, 2023 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2157272
We can certainly get to discussing validating claims. But so far multiple posters requested validation that among Chasidim they have more boys than girls in the shidduch scene; yet not even one poster requested validation that in the Yeshivish shidduch scene there’s more girls than boys. Do you already have a dataset for the Litvish and are only missing the data for the Chasidish, that accounts for why you’re only requesting half the validation?
In any event, the disparity in numbers among the Chasidish (with their being more boys than girls) can be verified by any number of shadchanim, especially those that specialize for the Chasidish velt or at least have extensive dealings among them. And the issue is present in the general Chasidish world, not limited to only specific Chasiduses.January 18, 2023 1:41 am at 1:41 am #2157323
To marry just for the sake of getting married without worrying about small details such as compatibility, Litvish girls can settle for Litvish boys they have little to nothing in common with. They needn’t bother attempting the same with Chassidish boys. Most girls, no matter how desperate, are looking for more than that in a life partner.January 18, 2023 1:41 am at 1:41 am #2157325Ari256Participant
Unpopular opinion: find something for the girls to do for two three years and they shouldn’t date until they are 22. Crisis averted.January 18, 2023 1:44 am at 1:44 am #2157350☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Ari, are you implying that girls are sitting around twiddling their thumbs until they get married?January 18, 2023 4:16 am at 4:16 am #2157353CascadeParticipant
the way i understand the Chasidishe shiduch issue is that as their girls marry so incredibly young to rather young boys. a girl who who reaches 20 is “old” and how old of a boy should she marry and so boys who havent married by the time they are 25-26 are old and passed up. i have read about this being their issue and while i do know of a few couples that are L girl marrying C boy it is usually when they are way older in their 30sJanuary 18, 2023 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2157442meir GParticipant
no inverse exists , i am chassidish & work in the litvish world; there is absolutely no excess of boys in the chassidsh world; there are 2 additional factors that may give you that perception
1. RED LIGHTS! the chassidish are very makpid on not skipping so 50% of the time u see a “older” chassidish boy or girl its because they waiting for a sibling to move
2. ” STILLWELL AVE. the chassidish boys system ends abruptly at about 19 , u need to get off the train there is almost no framework after that… so if the boy doesnt go for whatever reason he needs to create a schedule & life for himself .. the girl on the other hand has a life , job …maybe school..so she joins a shiur or 2 on emuna and starts soaring while he tries to keep himself out of trouble and joins yeled vyalda gym at night, resulting a ruchnius GAP THATS WIDENING WITH TIME.. much more to say got to workJanuary 18, 2023 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2157462
Shaddchanim are not statisticians. It is more likely that their statements imply their reverse. Because this may eclipse your fields of self taught expertise, I’ll tell you a story.
A company has a reputation of their employees remaining single. So the CEO hires Zalman as a shadchan for their employees. He makes a list of all eligible employees. He notices that the company has far more single girls than boys. After a year of unsuccessful matchmaking, he starts looking for a cause. He goes through all his ideas that started of promising but did not end with a match. On each one he recalls the underlying reasons that the company employee would not continue. Zalman became convinced that the employees were more attached to the company then their own lives. He decided to talk to the CEO about a coach to for a healthier business setting for their single employees. The CEO calles in Joseph to go over Zalman’s notes. Joseph turned to the CEO and said, “there are far more girls on this list than boys. I know of a company that has many single boys”. The CEO proclaims, “as a business man I always go by the data. The data clearly says there are more girls in my company, so Joseph must be right.”January 18, 2023 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2157472Yserbius123Participant
There are more Chassidishe boys in Shidduchim and there are more non-Chassidishe girls in Shidduchim. I don’t know if there’s data to support it, but I’m pretty sure everyone here has heard that time and time again. If it’s a myth, so then it’s a myth. But right now I’m willing (at least for the sake of this discussion) to believe it.
@daas-yochid Getting a job or education is called “twiddling thumbs” now? Are bachurim sitting in the freezer or Eretz Yisroel just being mevatel Torah until they get married?January 18, 2023 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2157481
Dofi: “Litvish girls can settle for Litvish boys they have little to nothing in common with.”
Hello, the reason there’s an issue to begin with, is because there aren’t enough Litvish boys for all the Litvish girls.
It’s common sense that many singles facing the prospect of no martial partner in their preferred cultural settings will accept an alternative with some cultural changes rather than face a lifetime of spinsterhood.January 18, 2023 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #2157508
Hello, there are plenty of Litvish boys but too many of them are totally incompatible with the girls since they have zero accomplishments in learning, education, work, life choices, etc. If your “common sense” was spot on, these shidduchim would be happening in droves and there would be no need for this post. Girls aren’t desperate enough to abandon their legitimate need for compatibility to marry chassidish any more than they are to marry some total loser.January 18, 2023 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #2157540147Participant
For most regular Misnagdos girls, it shall be ffar too serious of a cultural shock not to be able to properly observe Yom ha’Atzmaut & Yom Yerusholayim, or how have a husband not observing Tefillin for a n entire week of Pessach & SukkosJanuary 18, 2023 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2157555AviraDeArahParticipant
147…. you’re confusing modern orthodoxy with mainstream litvishe jewry. Outside of MO, nobody acknowledges “the day of the bones” or the day when Yerushalayim became defiled with unrepentant enemies of Hashem.
Anyways, women (hopefully) don’t see men davening at home. Most women never see their husband with tefillin on, so I don’t think they care very much. It also has nothing to do with being chasidish, as the minhag ha’gra is not to wear tefilin on chol hamoed either, and that’s the most common minhag in eretz yisroel.January 18, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2157561
It wasn’t meant to be read like that.January 19, 2023 9:52 am at 9:52 am #2157712BrooklynGirl7Participant
The clearest example of how the “age gap” does matter is that in Eretz Yisrael, where boys generally begin shidduchim at 21 and girls at 20, there is no numbers crisis within the Litvish community.
Were it true that chassidim have that many more potential “extra” chossonim to account for the 15% extra kallahs in Litvish circles, you would have a point. But since most people would not consider such a shidduch for their childbecause of the dangers of such a cultural chasm between the potential spouses, one can assume that people would make it an option of last resort.
So what age would the girls be? 28? And if by chassidish boys the age was 23 or 24, how would this solve anything?
Better solution – everyone becomes “heimishe” and then intermarries! 🤣
Seriously, since social engineering usually generates a bad outcome, maybe we should all dial back our preconceived notions and hakpados and open ourselves to bracha from Above. How? By being more focused on the personality of the potential shidduch, rather than leaving it as a last piece, after all the boxes are checked.
As a group, we have lost our a way a bit – and all of the obstacles we justify are self-inflicted.January 19, 2023 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2157823☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
@daas-yochid Getting a job or education is called “twiddling thumbs” now? Are bachurim sitting in the freezer or Eretz Yisroel just being mevatel Torah until they get married?
Of course not. Hence my question to Ari.January 19, 2023 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2157824Amil ZolaParticipant
Brookyn girl, what is the source of your data? TIAJanuary 19, 2023 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2157858
Just having numbers does not make it a statistical problem. There is no reason to believe in the age gap theory.January 23, 2023 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2158794efshar azoiParticipant
oil and water dont mix
each derech is way too different for compatibility to happenAugust 11, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2215173
Bringing this up because I know quite a few nice older boys who are willing to date litvish girls, A shtreimel and bakitsah are very nice. There’s no reason why a girl shouldn’t give dating outside the box a try. There’s nothing to lose, just give it a shot.August 11, 2023 8:30 am at 8:30 am #2215229DaMosheParticipant
Chassidish girls should date Litvish boys, because the girl takes on the minhagim of her husband. We have a rule of maalin b’kedushah v’ein moridin.August 11, 2023 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2215280
DaMoshe: edited the reality is that the Litvish world has an excess of girls in shiddhichim, whereas the Chasidish world has an excess of boys in shiddhichim.
But I’ll grant you that at least your moida that the wife takes on the husband’s minhagim. In the MO world today that’s considered bigoted.August 11, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2215297yungermanSParticipant
So your saying that Litvish with their minhagim are holier then chassidim? Cause then that would be going up in kedusha. However I think most people will tell you that chassidim are more serious in their yiddishkeit then Litvish and if that’s true then it would be going down in kedusha.August 11, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2215315DaMosheParticipant
yungerman, the Litvish Mesorah is a real one, going back thousands of years. Chassidim have no real Mesorah. It goes back a few hundred years, to ideas the Besht claimed he received from a Navi. Even if that were true, that is not how a Mesorah is determined.August 12, 2023 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2215359
I help set up singles who are 25 years and older. I have a list of a few older chassidish boys. One is a learner, and a few work. They are all good-looking, talented, and nice boys. I know a few older girls who are 30+, despite these boys checking their list of what they’re looking for, they are not interested because of the boys different background.. I believe this is wrong, and there would be no shidduch crisis if everyone was open-minded and focused on the person, not the background or difference in minhagim.August 13, 2023 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #2215688Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
I believe that women follow their mother’s minhag in women specific mitzvos such as candles 🕯. But overall an kind of difference is a potential source of irritation, so it may be a good idea to be more accepting, doing it during shiduchim may be too late if a person was taught at school that chasidim sleep late and working boys don’t learn …August 14, 2023 1:22 am at 1:22 am #2215757
“Chassidim have no real Mesorah…”
DaMoshe: Really?? That may surprise about a half million members of various chassidusAugust 14, 2023 10:22 am at 10:22 am #2215855pekakParticipant
“Litvish” Mesorah isn’t a thousand years old, you’re confusing it with minhag Ashkenaz that continues today almost exclusively by those whom we call with great affection “Yekkes”.
Both Litvish and Chassidish Mesoras are actually minhag Ashkenaz heavily influenced by others.August 14, 2023 11:21 am at 11:21 am #2215885commonsaychelParticipant
Another valiant attempt to hijack the tread by posting a trollish comment, please don’t give him what he wants.August 16, 2023 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #2216680
I don’t know where to find the Litvish World’s excess of girls. I know dozens of boys that never go out.August 16, 2023 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #2216790
Any shadchan from Lakewood can provide you with a list…August 19, 2023 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2217601
As well as a list of boys. That doesn’t make an excess.August 20, 2023 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2217712Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Could it be not just lack of numbers, but quality ? Lomdus subpar, job prospects nonexistent? Girls are looking for someone who can support the family and lead it, are all the boys ready ?August 20, 2023 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #2217735Chaim87Participant
To the naysayers who say the two can’t mix; I see that in desperate situations this works just fine. I know older singles , divorced and sick singles who once they knew they couldn’t be choseey the all went for litvush and chasdiish and figured out their differences. If we wanted we can get it done. It’s a matter of mindsetAugust 22, 2023 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #2218558
For Ujm I came across an amazing maamar which was from the mitteler Rebbe, (way before feminism), which explained that the reason why Kabbala uses the male female paradigm for Hashem and bnei Yisrael/ mashpia mekabel, instead of teacher and student/ rich and poor, is that in the latter examples, one is superior, and self sufficient and the other batul and will have nothing without the former.
However the male female dynamic is unique- as although in certain aspects- the male is the mashpia, they both are contributors to the child (in fact she is greater contributor) and nothing will happen without the other one so they’re equally needing the other to make creation happen. And so too Knesses Yisrael and Hakadosh Baruch Hu (ie Malchus and 6 Sefiros) team up to create new life force/ neshamos etc. There was alot more detail which I won’t put on the net, you’re welcome to learn inside, (biurei zohar, of noach from p. Yud Beis and on)
stam I thought it was fascinating from many angles and thought ujm would appreciateAugust 22, 2023 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #2218610
ChabadShlucha: Shkoyach. (BTW, did you choose this thread intentionally relating to the current discussion here or you just needed somewhere to send me this pshat?)August 22, 2023 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2218645CTLAWYERParticipant
Most women wouldn’t know if their husbands were putting Tephillin on Chol HaMoed, they aren’t at minyan with them.
In more than 4 decades of marriage the late Mrs. CTL A”H never once saw me daven shacharis on Chol HaMoedAugust 23, 2023 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2218970
Ujm- it kind of connected and didn’t want to waste time finding the original threads where we were discussing Torah and feminism…August 23, 2023 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #2218973
Ujm- forgot to add- as I’ve been learning deep stuff on Shir HaShirim- I’ve come to realize that whoever degrades women degrades himself too, because all of klal Yisrael are Hashem’s “wife”, and have a feminine avoda in relation to Him.August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2219006
CS: After extensive review of hundreds of UJM posts on multiple threads, I’m more convinced than ever that our revered R’ Yosef is really a closet feminist whose elegant misogynistic trolls are really an ingenious means of eliciting angry responses defending women.
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