Shidduchim – Divorced Homes

Your going to get married, my advice for you is that shadchonim try to match a negative with negative so to speak, so be prepared that they will try to red you every misfit in town, ie father in prison, people with mental health issues etc etc. Wait for the right one and don’t let yourself get bullied.

@Joesph, it is certainly not going to get him mizrach vant in most botay medresh and not a huge plus on the resume. I was bringing this as an example not my personal opinion.
My personal opinion is that I would sooner do a shiddich with an honest poor person then with a rich crook.

CS: Would you sooner do a shidduch with an honest rich person than you would with an honest poor person?

opinionated-2: whoha! You CAN find working boys who are the biggest maamin and yirei shamayim. True, it may be harder to find that among working boys than among learning boys, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look (and insist) on those attributes. So I don’t know if you should be excluding working boys.

As far as divorced parents, don’t even think about it. Just go about shidduchim as normal without worry. If asked about it, treat it as if asked about your schooling history, shul membership and any other myriad of shidduch related questions. Answer them and move on.

Are you heimish or chasidish?

All you can do (like everyone else) is put in the right hishtadlus and once you do that, Hashem decides when the right one will come (I say “when” and not “if”, because everyone has a bashert). The question on the table should only be “what is the right hishtadlus?” To answer that question, make sure you send your resume to a bunch of different shadchanim and the like. If you see on paper you match with someone redd to you (after you check with the references and ensure there’s no issues you wouldn’t find out from dates and you both have the same basic life goals and values), then you go out.

Once you go out with the guy, the fact that hashgachah pratis brought you two together should be reason to take it seriously. In fact, assume he’s your bashert, and work towards building a relationship towards marriage unless a red light comes up (too many people go out with the mindset “prove to me you’re my bashert”). What IS a valid red light? Make sure you have a competent daa’s torah mentor who can guide you. For example, if you don’t enjoy spending time with him (after giving it a fair chance), that’s probably a red light. If, however, you continue to go out with the guy, and you feel like it clicks, you feel comfortable around him, that you enjoy the dates, and look forward to the next dates, that’s a VERY good sign. Just note, it may not be so AMAZING right at the start and everyone’s nervous in the beginning, so don’t be quick to judge. In general, don’t say “no” to go out again unless it’s a BIG “no.” Also, please be careful not to fall into the “Mr. Potato Head trap,” where people sometimes have an image of what their bashert is going to be like before they go out (personality wise (NOT referring to middos), looks, sense of humor, intelligence etc.) and say ” I KNOW this is what I need.” What ends up happening is, they might meet their bashert (which they could’ve figured it out by the fact they enjoyed the dates, looked forward to them, etc.) and completely drop them, because “he’s a great guy, I enjoy his company, and look forward to seeing him again, but I wrote on my list that I wanted a guy with a better sense of humor/ a super genius/ a guy who has deeper conversations, etc.” With all due respect, nobody knows what they actually need. Certainly not ourselves, since we’re filled with negio’s. Hashem knows better than us what we need. And yes, a person can drop their bashert, much like if i used my bechirah to not get a job, I wouldn’t make any money despite the gezirah on rosh hashanah saying I’d become wealthy (the gezirah is true, PROVIDED I put in the correct hishtadlus as I’m obligated to do).

Some of this information was based off the famous “Mashgiach’s Guide to Shidduchim” (Rabbi Mordechai Dolinsky), but most of it was from R’ Shaifer’s (rabbi who does “The Shmuz”) Dating Seminar. I suggest you watch that seminar for more info, it’s got great stuff.

So, again, just put in the CORRECT hishtadlus and daven, and THAT’S your chiyuv. The results are completely up to Hashem, no matter what circumstance you happen to be in.

Once one knows this information: 1) If they ever get dropped, they can know FOR CERTAIN, as long as they put in the right hishtadlus, clearly this shidduch wasn’t bashert, and this was the best thing that could happen to them (as the chovos halevavos says, no creation can hurt or help you, ONLY Hashem can).
2) If the person puts in the correct hishtadlus, and ends up marrying someone, they can know with confidence they married their bashert (the one Hashem decided is best for them).

HATZLACHAH!

Also, if you’re not necessarily looking for a learner, you could mention that (just with a caveat that you have very high frum standards), but on the other hand, if on your resume, it may turn off some learners too. Make sure to get proper guidance what the correct hishtadlus is for this one.

“Unfortunately divorce is a stigma. It shouldn’t be, because as 5thD said, we are (generally speaking) much more resilient then kids who didn’t go through hardships in life.
And we know what NOT to do in our marriages.”

I respectfully disagree. There are many kids who come from divorced homes who do not come out of the divorce more resilient. Divorce can be traumatic to children and they can end up with untreated mental health conditions as well as not knowing how to have healthy relationships. This is NOT to say that all kids who’s parents are divorced have these issues, I’m not even saying most do.
However, the other side not doing research, imo, is negligent.

Your criteria for the attributes of your beschert are both admirable but somewhat inconsistent. At the same time, your own hashkafah seems to have some flexibility so you might extend that to the boy you consider marrying. You say he must be a full time learner and that his use of a smart phones are a non-starter, even with a filter. Yet, for practical reasons. Yet, for practical reasons, you yourself are comfortable going on to the internet to seek guidance on your own dating protocols. Perhaps just focus on finding a boy from ANY background who seems to share most, but not necessarily all of your midos and more importantly, appears to be genuinely interested in you as a person and building a life together.

Much hatzlacha in your search.

@5th dimension @kilaolamchasdo
WELL SAID!!! A person finding their shidduch (as I’ve heard from many places) requires the minimum amount of hishtadlus than anything else in life. You have to do your part and then all that’s left is Tefilla. Sometimes it feels hard, but you have to realize that when the right time comes, nothing will/can stop Hashem from bringing you to your Bashert. Just looking at the frum world- you see so many shidduchim coming about from ‘the craziest of places’…

Dear Opinionated,
You seem to want a very frum guy that can be a good husband. Working/learning seems to be as relevant here as tall/short.

Children who are in regular & good contact with both parents shall do fine. On the other hand, if they are estranged from either parent, they shall end up being estranged from finding a marriage partner. These 2 facts [really 1 fact from both ends of the spectrum] is just the way it is.

@147: A lot also depend on the level of acrimony between the parents, there was a case where the hate was so bad it made the front page of the tabloids, when the son got married the parents could not act mature enough to set aside the disagreements and the cops needed to be called to the wedding for break up the fight.

I am finding the discussions here and elsewhere about “learning boys” both comical and alarming. Having been involved with shidduchim, my own children, providing info for those who list me as a reference, etc., the entire notion is built on myths, and often frank dishonesty.

1) Learning after getting married is a wonderful thing, as is any and all Limud Hatorah. No disagreement.
2) The real, true learning boy is not the average yeshiva bochur that adopts this label when entering shidduch age. We all know the difference, but find it politically incorrect to express it.
3) A large percentage of boys that marry as “learning boys” do so as a matter of social status. Many do not remain in that status long, and others get chased out of it by the supporting parents. in-laws, or spouse. No empirical data on the numbers, but they are not low.
4) There is also a status symbol to girls requesting to marry a learning boy. That suffers the same set of mistaken beliefs.
5) Plenty of boys and girls who talk about the “learning boy” myth are seeking to placate parents who are klai kodesh or have other community status.
6) The preoccupation with the “learning boy” diverts the focus on the mission of life to be a Yerai Shomayim that wishes to establish a home of Yiras Shomayim. So midos tovos are assumed, as is the readiness for marriage. Yet, extreme erudition in Shas, with many completed mesechtos does not guarantee either Yiras Shomayim or midos tovos.

I expect vicious attacks for speaking like this, but the challenges are coming from the ideal. Bnai Torah should manifest all wonderful midos and hashkafos, plus an internal motivation to pursue Limud Hatorah according to the mishna of פת במלח תאכל. Yes, the ideal. But does it happen in real life? Which “learning boy” are we seeking. The ideal one or the live one? Until this confusion dissipates, it remains foolish to hang up the sign with such a demand or expectation.

Dear Grateful,
She explained that she does not necessarily want a learner. Rather, she is looking for very frum.

@ n0m, what are you a learning boy or a working boy?

Dear Opinioated,
He needs to be active with his hands. His head was not trained to focus on specific details while keeping larger concepts in mind. And almost guaranteed (very frum, working) that he is real about himself.

n0m, that’s the 50K question

For those insisting on a full-time-long-term-learning-boy:

I wonder why a young woman would insist (all or nothing?) on a parameter that she cannot possibly verify with any reasonable degree of confidence.

“Its not more likely that these kids have issues than a kid who was bullied in school, or had a parent with personality issues (and didnt get divorced), or was spoiled and is therefore lazy and entitled, or had an older sibling who picked on them, or got zero attention from parents, etc etc.”
You made this up. However, yes, when researching a shidduch one should try and make sure the prospective match is emotionally healthy.

“Most kids have semi-traumatic emotional experiences. So divorce doesn’t have to be worse then all the other experiences.”
You also made this up. Divorce isn’t a “semi-traumatic experience” it is fully traumatic. A child’s life as they know it is being ripped apart and usually not in a pleasant way.

“once a young woman/man has been by a good therapist for a few years you can definitely assume he/she has reversed whichever negative effects/impressions they got from their parents.”
Assuming someone is emotionally healthy after knowing they went through a traumatic emotional experience is a terrible idea.

Gratefulblac:

Your test for the learning boy is mostly academic. And that is a dangerous pitfall. I said this before, and it is fact, tragic but true. The best “learners” might not be the best in midos, and are not guaranteed any more than the “not learners” to make a good husband. We might debate why this is true, but the outcome of that debate will not change the candidate being considered for a shidduch.

Next, the motivation to get married without any form of a life plan, such as career, parnosoh, where to live, etc. is highly questionable. I have met some rather unhappy people who admitted they got married because their friends were getting married. Do you eat when someone else is hungry? If someone wants to spend time in kollel learning, then there must be a plan to make sure it can be sustained. Where to live, finances, plans for future… Turning around after a bunch of years of good learning and seeking to enter the working world is a huge challenge. It is most probable that this yungerman has zero training in any manner that would facilitate entry into a career at anything but a low pay starting job – while there is a family at home that needs better parnosoh.

The Gemora (Brachos 36b) tells us the debate between Rabi Yishmael, who stated that one should work and use the rest of his time for learning Torah, and Rabi Shimon bar Yochai who said that one should learn all the time, and their work will be done by others. The Gemora goes on to say that many did as Rabi Yishmael instructed, and succeeded. Many did like Rabi Shimon bar Yochai and failed. Interestingly, this Gemora does not conclude with a psak halacha – who is correct. And the reason is obvious. For one person, Rabi Yishmael’s prescription is appropriate. For another, it is incumbent to follow Rabi Shimon bar Yochai. Giving the wrong prescription is a terrible thing to do. And it seems that the majority of people needed to follow Rabi Yishmael. Many that signed up for Rabi Shimon’s advice failed. Is your “learning boy” the one that Rabi Shimon bar Yochai wants to spend his life learning?

Dear Grateful,
If a girl insists on marrying a long time learner, she should go out with boys that are learning now and discuss it with them. If she wants to get no dates and be an older single, she should talk to shadchanim about who or what is a long term learner.

A brilliant person can be cruel. A talmid Chochom by definition is referring only to a person that is not cruel.

Your questions have nothing to do with long term learners. At best it will identify if the boy is having a good zman. Long term learners, will learn regardless of income. Long term kollel is a whole different story.