June 25, 2020 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1876598
I’m just entering the shidduch world. Being from a divorced home and looking for a long-term learner, can anyone tell me how likely I am to get married, or should I start making plans for long term singlehood?
Opinions/suggestions welcome.June 25, 2020 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1876680
1. Why are the only two possibilities you list either a. a long-term learner or b. long-term single-hood? Isn’t a working guy better than long-term single-hood?
2. Why are you mentioning that your parents are divorced? How do you believe that’ll affect your shidduch prospects?June 25, 2020 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1876686
Your going to get married, my advice for you is that shadchonim try to match a negative with negative so to speak, so be prepared that they will try to red you every misfit in town, ie father in prison, people with mental health issues etc etc. Wait for the right one and don’t let yourself get bullied.June 25, 2020 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1876711
CS: Why are you categorizing a child of an imprisoned father as a “misfit”? You’re guilty of the same thing you malign the shadchanim with. Just as a child isn’t at fault for their parents divorce, similarly a child isn’t at fault for their parent’s imprisonment.June 25, 2020 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1876740
@Joesph, it is certainly not going to get him mizrach vant in most botay medresh and not a huge plus on the resume. I was bringing this as an example not my personal opinion.
My personal opinion is that I would sooner do a shiddich with an honest poor person then with a rich crook.June 25, 2020 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #18767615th DimensionParticipant
1. Shidduchim are Lmaale Min Hateva
They have nothing to do with your resume at the end of the day.
No kalla walks down to her chuppa thinking,Yeah,my resume did it !
2. Having come from a divorced home means your better equipped for real life than others
3. There are thousands !!! Of amazing boys today from similar homes.
4. Tefilos can do anything,ANYTHING.
5. A long term learner means you want a life that requires faith and Bitachon,welcome to Practice !!June 25, 2020 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1876776
CS: Would you sooner do a shidduch with an honest rich person than you would with an honest poor person?June 25, 2020 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1876784
@joesph, In a lot if case I would prefer the poor person, if the rich person has a arrogant attitude I would pass,June 25, 2020 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1876788
1. Would not mind marrying a working boy, however I’m not sure HE would appreciate ME. I am ultra frum and usually working boys as a general rule (doesn’t necessarily apply to everyone) are more “out there” than most learning boys, especially the ones who want to stay in learning/klei kodesh.
For example in my opinion smart phones are the ultimate no-no, no matter how many filters you put on.
Generally speaking a working boy will be more open-minded than me. He will not be happy with my chumros.
Again, generally speaking. I don’t know every working boy.
I am sure it is very hard to sit and learn all day every day (I can’t even know for sure if I’d be able to do it myself), and also many boys feel it is their responsibility to provide for their future families, which it is.
And they learn very shtark at night/morning.
I would marry a working boy rather than face long-term singlehood c’v. But not sure it’s the best thing for me or him. But push comes to shove yes definitely better then being single past lets say 24-25.
2. Unfortunately divorce is a stigma. It shouldn’t be, because as 5thD said, we are (generally speaking) much more resilient then kids who didn’t go through hardships in life.
And we know what NOT to do in our marriages.
And also there are many people who come from “perfect” resumes/families and they are tyrants to their spouse/children.
But yes it is, unfortunately.
It is an anxiety-ridden world today so people are always being “safe”.
Why do you think there is a shidduch crisis?
In the olden days you married your next door neighbor or first cousin and you made do with whatever it was.June 25, 2020 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1876800
CS: Is it fair to say wealth plays no role in shidduchim, by your family?June 26, 2020 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1876823
opinionated-2: whoha! You CAN find working boys who are the biggest maamin and yirei shamayim. True, it may be harder to find that among working boys than among learning boys, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look (and insist) on those attributes. So I don’t know if you should be excluding working boys.
As far as divorced parents, don’t even think about it. Just go about shidduchim as normal without worry. If asked about it, treat it as if asked about your schooling history, shul membership and any other myriad of shidduch related questions. Answer them and move on.
Are you heimish or chasidish?June 26, 2020 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1876824
@Joesph 100% correct, it plays absolutely no role.June 26, 2020 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1876827
@5ThDimension, thanks. You are so right.
This is a test after all.
Just an illusion to think that divorce or no divorce can stop Hashem from doing anything
#bitachon #emunah #tefilaJune 26, 2020 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1876849groissechuchumParticipant
you call yourself ultra frum but do not have emunah and bitachon in the aibishter that you’re are just as shayich to a phenomenal shidduch as miss perfect? frum does not mean being a chinyuk. you should work on your bitachon to the point that it overshadows any self doubtJune 26, 2020 3:10 am at 3:10 am #1876865KilaolomchasdoParticipant
All you can do (like everyone else) is put in the right hishtadlus and once you do that, Hashem decides when the right one will come (I say “when” and not “if”, because everyone has a bashert). The question on the table should only be “what is the right hishtadlus?” To answer that question, make sure you send your resume to a bunch of different shadchanim and the like. If you see on paper you match with someone redd to you (after you check with the references and ensure there’s no issues you wouldn’t find out from dates and you both have the same basic life goals and values), then you go out.
Once you go out with the guy, the fact that hashgachah pratis brought you two together should be reason to take it seriously. In fact, assume he’s your bashert, and work towards building a relationship towards marriage unless a red light comes up (too many people go out with the mindset “prove to me you’re my bashert”). What IS a valid red light? Make sure you have a competent daa’s torah mentor who can guide you. For example, if you don’t enjoy spending time with him (after giving it a fair chance), that’s probably a red light. If, however, you continue to go out with the guy, and you feel like it clicks, you feel comfortable around him, that you enjoy the dates, and look forward to the next dates, that’s a VERY good sign. Just note, it may not be so AMAZING right at the start and everyone’s nervous in the beginning, so don’t be quick to judge. In general, don’t say “no” to go out again unless it’s a BIG “no.” Also, please be careful not to fall into the “Mr. Potato Head trap,” where people sometimes have an image of what their bashert is going to be like before they go out (personality wise (NOT referring to middos), looks, sense of humor, intelligence etc.) and say ” I KNOW this is what I need.” What ends up happening is, they might meet their bashert (which they could’ve figured it out by the fact they enjoyed the dates, looked forward to them, etc.) and completely drop them, because “he’s a great guy, I enjoy his company, and look forward to seeing him again, but I wrote on my list that I wanted a guy with a better sense of humor/ a super genius/ a guy who has deeper conversations, etc.” With all due respect, nobody knows what they actually need. Certainly not ourselves, since we’re filled with negio’s. Hashem knows better than us what we need. And yes, a person can drop their bashert, much like if i used my bechirah to not get a job, I wouldn’t make any money despite the gezirah on rosh hashanah saying I’d become wealthy (the gezirah is true, PROVIDED I put in the correct hishtadlus as I’m obligated to do).
Some of this information was based off the famous “Mashgiach’s Guide to Shidduchim” (Rabbi Mordechai Dolinsky), but most of it was from R’ Shaifer’s (rabbi who does “The Shmuz”) Dating Seminar. I suggest you watch that seminar for more info, it’s got great stuff.
So, again, just put in the CORRECT hishtadlus and daven, and THAT’S your chiyuv. The results are completely up to Hashem, no matter what circumstance you happen to be in.
Once one knows this information: 1) If they ever get dropped, they can know FOR CERTAIN, as long as they put in the right hishtadlus, clearly this shidduch wasn’t bashert, and this was the best thing that could happen to them (as the chovos halevavos says, no creation can hurt or help you, ONLY Hashem can).
2) If the person puts in the correct hishtadlus, and ends up marrying someone, they can know with confidence they married their bashert (the one Hashem decided is best for them).
Also, if you’re not necessarily looking for a learner, you could mention that (just with a caveat that you have very high frum standards), but on the other hand, if on your resume, it may turn off some learners too. Make sure to get proper guidance what the correct hishtadlus is for this one.June 26, 2020 8:40 am at 8:40 am #18769195ishParticipant
Learning all day is no indicator whatsoever that someone is a yorei shomayim.June 26, 2020 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1876975bk613Participant
“Unfortunately divorce is a stigma. It shouldn’t be, because as 5thD said, we are (generally speaking) much more resilient then kids who didn’t go through hardships in life.
And we know what NOT to do in our marriages.”
I respectfully disagree. There are many kids who come from divorced homes who do not come out of the divorce more resilient. Divorce can be traumatic to children and they can end up with untreated mental health conditions as well as not knowing how to have healthy relationships. This is NOT to say that all kids who’s parents are divorced have these issues, I’m not even saying most do.
However, the other side not doing research, imo, is negligent.June 26, 2020 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1876979anonymous JewParticipant
Do you want as a husband someone whose mother stayed in the marriage “for my children’s sake ” but learned from his father to treat his wife as a punching bag and with constant verbal abuse and disrespect?June 26, 2020 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1876990GadolhadorahParticipant
Your criteria for the attributes of your beschert are both admirable but somewhat inconsistent. At the same time, your own hashkafah seems to have some flexibility so you might extend that to the boy you consider marrying. You say he must be a full time learner and that his use of a smart phones are a non-starter, even with a filter. Yet, for practical reasons. Yet, for practical reasons, you yourself are comfortable going on to the internet to seek guidance on your own dating protocols. Perhaps just focus on finding a boy from ANY background who seems to share most, but not necessarily all of your midos and more importantly, appears to be genuinely interested in you as a person and building a life together.
Much hatzlacha in your search.June 26, 2020 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1877006KilaolomchasdoParticipant
She specifically said a working guy would be fine too, she just feels a learning guy is probably more likely to share her values. I’m sure if she got redd a working guy who also shared her values she’d be open to that as well.June 27, 2020 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1877177MountParticipant
@5th dimension @kilaolamchasdo
WELL SAID!!! A person finding their shidduch (as I’ve heard from many places) requires the minimum amount of hishtadlus than anything else in life. You have to do your part and then all that’s left is Tefilla. Sometimes it feels hard, but you have to realize that when the right time comes, nothing will/can stop Hashem from bringing you to your Bashert. Just looking at the frum world- you see so many shidduchim coming about from ‘the craziest of places’…June 27, 2020 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #1877197Lamdan LLCParticipant
Just curious, you don’t want your husband to have a smartphone (even with the best filter), yet you don’t have an issue blogging on an (allegedly) heimishe website? Not sure which is worse? Let the argument begin…June 27, 2020 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1877207
You seem to want a very frum guy that can be a good husband. Working/learning seems to be as relevant here as tall/short.June 28, 2020 12:21 am at 12:21 am #18772185th DimensionParticipant
Just a casual reminder that quite alot of posters on this forum can be quite snarky, and cynical.
some of whom you’d never even so much as nod your head at them , unmasked…let alone vying for their דעה…
As such please take with a grain of salt the shallow caustic cynicism and/ or sarcasm that may be hurled your way in this disscussion,of which there will be plenty….
Stay focused.you raised good points and there is some substantial discussion above.
Hatzlocho and Much Mazel !!June 28, 2020 1:04 am at 1:04 am #1877229147Participant
Children who are in regular & good contact with both parents shall do fine. On the other hand, if they are estranged from either parent, they shall end up being estranged from finding a marriage partner. These 2 facts [really 1 fact from both ends of the spectrum] is just the way it is.June 28, 2020 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1877307
Makes sense. But I doubt it is true.June 28, 2020 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1877310
@147: A lot also depend on the level of acrimony between the parents, there was a case where the hate was so bad it made the front page of the tabloids, when the son got married the parents could not act mature enough to set aside the disagreements and the cops needed to be called to the wedding for break up the fight.June 28, 2020 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1877446knaidlachParticipant
Don’t play G-D. only Hashem is the one who is Mezaveg Zivugim. NO ONE ELSE. so there is someone out there for you. so just do your Hishtadlus to get the type of boy that you want. and Hashem will do the rest. Hashem is not limited to anything.
Waiting to hear good news in the near future.
Hatzlacha Rabba.June 28, 2020 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1877479
I am finding the discussions here and elsewhere about “learning boys” both comical and alarming. Having been involved with shidduchim, my own children, providing info for those who list me as a reference, etc., the entire notion is built on myths, and often frank dishonesty.
1) Learning after getting married is a wonderful thing, as is any and all Limud Hatorah. No disagreement.
2) The real, true learning boy is not the average yeshiva bochur that adopts this label when entering shidduch age. We all know the difference, but find it politically incorrect to express it.
3) A large percentage of boys that marry as “learning boys” do so as a matter of social status. Many do not remain in that status long, and others get chased out of it by the supporting parents. in-laws, or spouse. No empirical data on the numbers, but they are not low.
4) There is also a status symbol to girls requesting to marry a learning boy. That suffers the same set of mistaken beliefs.
5) Plenty of boys and girls who talk about the “learning boy” myth are seeking to placate parents who are klai kodesh or have other community status.
6) The preoccupation with the “learning boy” diverts the focus on the mission of life to be a Yerai Shomayim that wishes to establish a home of Yiras Shomayim. So midos tovos are assumed, as is the readiness for marriage. Yet, extreme erudition in Shas, with many completed mesechtos does not guarantee either Yiras Shomayim or midos tovos.
I expect vicious attacks for speaking like this, but the challenges are coming from the ideal. Bnai Torah should manifest all wonderful midos and hashkafos, plus an internal motivation to pursue Limud Hatorah according to the mishna of פת במלח תאכל. Yes, the ideal. But does it happen in real life? Which “learning boy” are we seeking. The ideal one or the live one? Until this confusion dissipates, it remains foolish to hang up the sign with such a demand or expectation.June 29, 2020 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1877609
Its like any other market – have a go and see what happens.
– Start by asking for exactly what you want, a boy who wants to learn long-term. See what is offered.
– Keep this position going for some time until you are ready to make a decision to keep this going or to make a change.
– Remember there are three positions in negotiations- what you want, what you don’t want, and what you are willing to agree to in order to reach agreement/compromise etc.
– No one can predict how likely it is for you to get married (divorced home or not), without knowing a million other details about you. How you look, your financial status, your family background, Chassidish or Litvish or Sephardi etc. etc.
– Good luck!June 29, 2020 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1877663
She explained that she does not necessarily want a learner. Rather, she is looking for very frum.June 29, 2020 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1877676
Excellent post! It is a frightening to me, how people often avoid this discussion. As if being ‘a learning boy’ solves everything by itself.
I have two quibbles with your sixth point.
– Yiras Shomayim is a life long mission that the majority does not excel at. It is very difficult to pair up young people that way. The main divide to me is familial relationships. Some want to stay strongly attached to their families, some want to move on. Also, some will bridge their family to their spouse’s family. Sometimes, they will both be a very involved with only one family.
-As far as I know, “extreme erudition in Shas” will just about guarantee Yiras Shomayim as well as excellent middos. It will not guarantee a mainstream worldview. Being ‘a top bachur’ or mastering one mesechta does not guarantee anything. There is still a lot of learning to put in.June 29, 2020 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1877763
@ n0m, what are you a learning boy or a working boy?June 29, 2020 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1877823
I think you did not get my sixth point. My message was that the midos and Yiras Shomayim are not correlated with learning, even strong learning. It should be, but it isn’t. The increase in Torah knowledge has not created a healthy and happy home. But midos tovos and Yiras Shomayim does.
The familial relationships issue is huge. It achieved notoriety years ago, and one would believe that we learned lessons since then. But, alas, nothing was learned. I hear frequent situations of girls or boys who refuse to leave their parents in order to connect to their spouses. Regardless of the excuses given, there is still a Torah guide that is not disputable: על כן יעזב איש את אביו ואת אמו ודבק באשתו. The criteria the Torah places on the married person is to disconnect from parents to cleave unto the the spouse. Yet, there are countless cases of parents who insist on maintaining a controlling interest in their married children, often citing their financial support as reasons for their being followers. And the incoming boy or girl is frequently frightened of this, and should be. Mechutanim can have contests who gets the children to be by them for Shabbos, Yom Tov, who chooses names for grandchildren, and countless other interferences. It’s hard enough for newlyweds to solve their disagreements. Swallowing the additional ingredients from parents and in-laws is cruel and unusual punishment.
Lastly, the extreme erudition in Shas indicates wonderful skill in learning and retaining information. It is as correlated with midos and Yiras Shomayim as lesser degrees of retained learning.
There is a story related from Rav Chaim Vital whose talmid died young. The talmid came to his rebbe in a dream, and reported that the BD Shel Maaloh decreed gehinom for him. He said he could not understand why. He mastered Shas and Halacha, he was well versed in Kabbalah, bith the knowledge and the practice. His sentence was inconsistent with his understanding of his life. His rebbe responded, “At home you were abusive. You caused enormous amounts of pain to your wife, and your children, in turn, suffered as well.” המבין יבין.June 29, 2020 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1877867
Just for clarity’s sake, why would a boy work if he could learn full-time?
He can’t sit for too long?
Wants to be “out there”?
Wants $$$$$$$$$$??June 29, 2020 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1877874
I do not know. How many hours a day (minimum) makes a learning boy?June 29, 2020 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1877901
He needs to be active with his hands. His head was not trained to focus on specific details while keeping larger concepts in mind. And almost guaranteed (very frum, working) that he is real about himself.June 29, 2020 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1877903
I understood you correctly. But you expanded on it heavily. Let me think about it a bit before I respond. While your take on family attachment is true, I had a more simple idea in mind. People who want to start their own life in marriage, and move to a new community or country and fend for themselves, could be hampered by a spouse who wants to keep his/her family close. And the reverse for someone who could never be too far from home would need an understanding spouse. As well as those dedicated to their career/college/yeshiva. Or the few singles that are caring for their parents or siblings.June 30, 2020 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1877911
n0m, that’s the 50K questionJune 30, 2020 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1877951
@Joseph, No I’m litvish
@bk13, true, some kids get messed up. But some are better off than other kids. Its not more likely that these kids have issues than a kid who was bullied in school, or had a parent with personality issues (and didnt get divorced), or was spoiled and is therefore lazy and entitled, or had an older sibling who picked on them, or got zero attention from parents, etc etc.
Most kids have semi-traumatic emotional experiences. So divorce doesn’t have to be worse then all the other experiences. It’s just more obvious.
And if they went to therapy that’s even better – once a young woman/man has been by a good therapist for a few years you can definitely assume he/she has reversed whichever negative effects/impressions they got from their parents.
@Lamdan, I don’t think there’s something wrong with this website per say, but yes once I get married I plan to not have internet. Right now I have a laptop with a very good filter (GenTech), I use it for my job. I grew up in a home where we had internet, so I’m used to it. But I plan to get rid of it after marriage.
My family is baalebatish, but I “flipped”. So in certain ways I’m still exposed to certain things. I’m still on my way “up” , to be honest.
But I have a clear picture of how I want my future home to look.
How will a working man not have internet in his house? Most jobs need you to put in hours at home once you get to some kind of senior position.June 30, 2020 3:35 am at 3:35 am #1877972rationalParticipant
For those insisting on a full-time-long-term-learning-boy:
I wonder why a young woman would insist (all or nothing?) on a parameter that she cannot possibly verify with any reasonable degree of confidence.June 30, 2020 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1878034
opinionated-2: Are you open to marry a guy who, just like yourself now, currently has filtered internet but plans to get rid of it after he marries you?June 30, 2020 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1878046bk613Participant
“Its not more likely that these kids have issues than a kid who was bullied in school, or had a parent with personality issues (and didnt get divorced), or was spoiled and is therefore lazy and entitled, or had an older sibling who picked on them, or got zero attention from parents, etc etc.”
You made this up. However, yes, when researching a shidduch one should try and make sure the prospective match is emotionally healthy.
“Most kids have semi-traumatic emotional experiences. So divorce doesn’t have to be worse then all the other experiences.”
You also made this up. Divorce isn’t a “semi-traumatic experience” it is fully traumatic. A child’s life as they know it is being ripped apart and usually not in a pleasant way.
“once a young woman/man has been by a good therapist for a few years you can definitely assume he/she has reversed whichever negative effects/impressions they got from their parents.”
Assuming someone is emotionally healthy after knowing they went through a traumatic emotional experience is a terrible idea.June 30, 2020 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1878043
@rational -“For those insisting on a full-time-long-term-learning-boy:
I wonder why a young woman would insist (all or nothing?) on a parameter that she cannot possibly verify with any reasonable degree of confidence.”
Why can you not verify it – does the boy learn in Yeshivah – check with his Rosh Hayeshiva, his Rebbes, and Chavroses. How well does he learn. What is his level of learning. Does he learn the full sedorim or miss some. Does he go to the Shiur everyday or miss some. Does he learn on a Friday or Shabbos afternoon when there is no seder? etc.
What is his academic ability- check with the schools/chadorim he went to.
– Does he plan to learn in Kolel, which Kolel? Does he plan to learn in Eretz Yisroel – where in Eretz Yisroel? Has he a place in Kolel?, check with the Rosh Kolel that it is true.
– You are right you can not know it a 100% but there is some hishtadlus to be made. I once asked about a certain Bochur and his Rosh Yeshivah said it is true he is in the yeshivah, but he has yet to show up in the Bies Hamedresh, 6 weeks into the zeman. The yeshivah was a BT yeshivah and there was no pressure put on the bochurim to learn!June 30, 2020 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1878075
YesJune 30, 2020 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1878153
You made three points on verifying if a boy is a long term learner. Nothing on your list sets long term learners apart from the other yeshiva boys. I wonder how much academic ability in cheder translates into learning. It seems to me to depend on a keen sharpness that develops at an older age. And, most long term learners, just keep learning. They do not plan it out before marriage.June 30, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1878161
Your test for the learning boy is mostly academic. And that is a dangerous pitfall. I said this before, and it is fact, tragic but true. The best “learners” might not be the best in midos, and are not guaranteed any more than the “not learners” to make a good husband. We might debate why this is true, but the outcome of that debate will not change the candidate being considered for a shidduch.
Next, the motivation to get married without any form of a life plan, such as career, parnosoh, where to live, etc. is highly questionable. I have met some rather unhappy people who admitted they got married because their friends were getting married. Do you eat when someone else is hungry? If someone wants to spend time in kollel learning, then there must be a plan to make sure it can be sustained. Where to live, finances, plans for future… Turning around after a bunch of years of good learning and seeking to enter the working world is a huge challenge. It is most probable that this yungerman has zero training in any manner that would facilitate entry into a career at anything but a low pay starting job – while there is a family at home that needs better parnosoh.
The Gemora (Brachos 36b) tells us the debate between Rabi Yishmael, who stated that one should work and use the rest of his time for learning Torah, and Rabi Shimon bar Yochai who said that one should learn all the time, and their work will be done by others. The Gemora goes on to say that many did as Rabi Yishmael instructed, and succeeded. Many did like Rabi Shimon bar Yochai and failed. Interestingly, this Gemora does not conclude with a psak halacha – who is correct. And the reason is obvious. For one person, Rabi Yishmael’s prescription is appropriate. For another, it is incumbent to follow Rabi Shimon bar Yochai. Giving the wrong prescription is a terrible thing to do. And it seems that the majority of people needed to follow Rabi Yishmael. Many that signed up for Rabi Shimon’s advice failed. Is your “learning boy” the one that Rabi Shimon bar Yochai wants to spend his life learning?July 1, 2020 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1878360
Dear The Little I know – The person who drafted the question – Opinionated 2 – said she is looking for a long term learner – Not someone who is going to learn for a couple of years and then go to work.
– Also I was answering the person who said it could not be verified if someone was capable of long term learning. My tests as I agreed are not 100% guaranteed to answer that question but if Opinionated2 insists on marrying a boy who will learn long term then at least she can make some hishtadlus and check up on the suggested shidduch.
– You are right middos comes first, and I have known brilliant Talmidei Chachomim who were impossible to live with, cruel to their wives and children and marriages that ended up in divorce.
The same problem applies to the question of whether the shidduch suggestion has good middos – how can that be verified. As the Gemoro says there is no guarantee that someone who is a Tsaddik today will be one tomorrow.
– To find someone who is genuinely interested in learning long term, capable of it, and not just saying it in order to get a better shidduch, I think the questions I mentioned to verify it are worthwhile. No doubt that Parnossoh is a factor but that is a separate consideration and is easier to verify than the more uncertain questions as to character, Frumkeit, and mental stability.July 1, 2020 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1878472
If a girl insists on marrying a long time learner, she should go out with boys that are learning now and discuss it with them. If she wants to get no dates and be an older single, she should talk to shadchanim about who or what is a long term learner.
A brilliant person can be cruel. A talmid Chochom by definition is referring only to a person that is not cruel.
Your questions have nothing to do with long term learners. At best it will identify if the boy is having a good zman. Long term learners, will learn regardless of income. Long term kollel is a whole different story.July 1, 2020 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1878516
First some small quibbles. 1)Maybe I doubt your second point as well. Maybe too many people think that the average yeshiva guy is a true learner. 2)I do not know why, but some people with excellent middos had to suffer through unhappy marriages until they got divorced. Marriage is a unique relationship, just because they treat each other well, does not mean they can build a happy home together. 3)Getting married without a plan is not the same as getting married because everyone else is. 4) There is a focus today on end of Kollel training. Long Term Kollel is good training for relationships in the workplace. (Except for the other gender part.)
What you wrote about learning and middos can be true up to a point. Once a boy gets to extreme erudition of shas, he must have overcome his personal tendencies. Someone who learns a lot, but is stuck on their own worldview will stall in his Torah knowledge. The Torah demands subservience of our experiences to it’s Eternal Truths. An ignoramus is not bothered by this demand, because he does not learn enough. The Torah gives him what he needs to support (almost) any idea he chooses. He does not know enough to see that Torah also challenges his ideas and remakes them. An average yeshiva boy will stick to topics that fit his experiences, so he is also not challenged to much. And, over time the Torah molds his thinking.
But someone who learns through all of shas and beyond, Is constantly being challenged to mold themselves to the Torah ideal. If they do not follow through on the inner work, they will miss out on the underlying concepts that bring The Whole Torah together. And ‘extreme erudition of shas’ will elude them. I believe this to be the meaning of the story with Rav Chaim Vital and his student. Along with Rav Moshe Feinstein’s Torah comes Rav Moshe Feinstein’s Middos. To be precise, Rav Moshe Feinstein’s extreme Middos brought about his greatness in Torah.
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