February 26, 2017 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #619332
I am a 23yr old bochur who has been around the block to say the least, but B”H I have made it back, yes I do not necessarily look the part but in learning and yiddishkiet I can roll with best of them, to the extent that I would say when it comes to certain things especially inyunie emunah and kedusha I would say I’m miles ahead of half the bochurim who have went through the regular system. However I have been in shidduchim for almost a year and have not gone out a single time. I would rather not get married then give in on frumkiet but the girls I’ve been redt would force me to do just that. Any upstanding Bais Yaakov girl and their father wouldn’t even look at me. Is this the price I need pay for my short stint in the outside world? Will people really not even consider the ben torah I’ve become today? Am I better off just giving in? Is this really the system we live in today?February 26, 2017 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1220251
Bachur 2.0 PLEASE PLEASE do not give up or give in. This may just be a last leg of a nisayon. To test yourself to see if you have really closed that door (for your own knowledge, not for others)
You are so right about how qualitative your emunah may be, people who go thru difficult times and turn to Hashem have so much growth and emunah under their belt that so many others don’t have.
I obviously don’t know you but I want you to know (as a mom of both girls and boys) that there are MANY people out there who will be willing to look your way. Even girls without a past. But there are people who are not willing to, and they are not for you. Be grateful for the natural selection process!!! It will save you money from having to go out with everyone and learning later they don’t want you.
In terms of shidduchim I also had a “past” because I grew up modern and went to coed camps and schools. I had the same experiences as you in who would consider me and who wouldn’t. But I learned a few things about the view points over the last 26 years. I see the drawback of marrying someone with a “past” WITHOUT knowing how connected they remain to old habits, and I also see that my husband, who is a baal tshuva, was so much more growth oriented than so many of the FFB men I had dated.
So DON’T take it personally!! Keep davening!! Keep growing!! and know how much Gd loves you for all you have done for him. You sound like a true eved Hashem and you will find the right one at the right time and hopefully not a moment earlier.February 26, 2017 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1220252
Syag lchochma I appreciate you taking your time to respond but I do feel that you don’t really grasp the situation today and how it differs from when you were dating. Though no father will admit it, it is more important that his son in law was a top boy in a top yeshiva from a top family, many rabbonim who I have a a connection with try to reassure me that I will find someone who understands that regardless of my past I am “chosheva ben torah” but I wonder how fast that would change should I be redt to one of their daughters.February 26, 2017 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1220253
I was telling you about my past to let you know the concept has been around forever and that it is individuals, not everyone. I have several children in that age group and have been in the situation you write of, checking out people who have changed or grew up differently. I get it, but if that is all you are bumping up against you may want to stay away from NY shidduchim where those “criterea” seem to be more black and white (and I don’t mean clothing). But, like I said, it will depend on you yourself. I have a close friend who has come miles from where he was at and is very learned and fine but still hangs on to some very demeaning views of rabbanim and certain institutions. In my opinion it is very unhealthy for his children to grow up hearing/witnessing that. So it isn’t just where you are at, but what you have retained inside and what you have left behind. Someone who knows you will see what is there.February 26, 2017 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1220254
in learning and yiddishkiet I can roll with best of them, to the extent that I would say when it comes to certain things especially inyunie emunah and kedusha I would say I’m miles ahead of half the bochurim who have went through the regular system.
Any upstanding Bais Yaakov girl and their father wouldn’t even look at me.
But you wouldn’t consider a girl like that?February 26, 2017 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1220255
Bmyer if I understand correctly you are asking if I would consider a girl with a past. The answer is 1000% yes. So what’s the problem? With out getting to much into it, it is a lot more uncommen to find a girl who has been around the block and is now a frum girl looking for a full time learner, this can be taken in the wrong way but if you look into it you will find that a girl who leaves the confines of her fathers house usually don’t return full force but that’s for another thread…..February 26, 2017 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1220256
Bachur 2.0, I hear what you’re saying, but can you explain why you won’t go out with a nice girl who is frum now and also has a past?
If you are suggesting that people should just look at how you are now and not at your past- it’s not fair if you’re not willing to do that as well- by going out with a girl with a past…February 26, 2017 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1220257
“I do not necessarily look the part”
Did you consider starting to look the part?February 26, 2017 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1220258
Rt555 I apologize if I did not explain, I will but ,could be by chance, I have not been redt to a girl who has been around the block and is now holding were I feel I am. I think this can be explained simply that girls naturally will not make the statement of “going otd” unless they are really holding far from yiddishkiet, this does not mean regular good girls don’t rebel like guys but its quieter and usually by the time they are in shidduchim their story is long forgotten and they are looking for a guy who hasn’t been around and if the girl is she’s usually not holding by lookin for a full time learner but again if the opportunity arises I would definitely say yesFebruary 26, 2017 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1220259
Joseph I should elaborate that I do wear a white shirt black pants but yes I don’t necessarily wear my hat everywhere and yes I have a “chup”. It is something I considered changing but I don’t really find it necessary.February 26, 2017 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1220260
So you’re fine not being considered by the girls that want a husband that puts himself together like his rebbeim; and instead being considered by the girls who are cool with the chup and often hatless type of guy?February 26, 2017 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1220261
It’s so interesting you find it hard to date. I hear the opposing side, girls claim that they make one mistake in 10th grade and everything is over. Boys on the other hand can shape up after being who knows where and within a year or 2 will be accepted easily.February 26, 2017 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1220262
Shopping -“It’s so interesting you find it hard to date. I hear the opposing side, girls claim that they make one mistake in 10th grade and everything is over.”
What do you mean “everything is over”? That they can’t get the most popular boy?!?
Well, fyi, nothing is really over, but they’ll have to lower their standards in order to get married!February 26, 2017 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1220264
Bochur, I am sure their are other guys who have a past and now their very frum and then they are girls being like me who are okay and do not have a past and are willing to date them, that is me. If you read my other thread then you would see that I was asking about a guy who even has a tattoo and came back on and learns full time.February 26, 2017 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1220265
Health do you think that’s the way it should be? That a girl should have to lower her standards because of something she did in 10th grade? Even though now as she is would be deserving of the best. Besides everyone does stupid things, the unlucky ones have people find out.February 26, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1220266
Bochur, it is totally fair. Just because someone did not finish high school and they are very good frum girls they are not marrying the kinds of guys who want girls who finished high school so too and even more so when the girl did something wrong like go off the derech.February 26, 2017 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1220267
So what your saying is people should be judged by what they were not what they are? I’m talking about someone who did a full turn around. Let’s say a girl used to be very heavy then lost all her weight, should a guy who is concerned with weight not go out with her because she used to be overweight?February 26, 2017 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1220268
Bochur, yes because their is a chance she will become fat again and she is more likely than someone who was skinny always to become fat again.February 26, 2017 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1220269
Bochur 2.0 – this is not an answer to your question, but I really think that you should read Just One Jew by Moishe Mendlowitz.
Aside from the fact that everyone should read it, I think it would give you a lot of chizuk.
It’s a fantastic book, and it’s easy and enjoyable to read. It’s about a guy who went OTD in the days before that was common, he was completely OTD for app. 13 years (almost married a goy, etc.), but did a full-turn around, and Boruch Hashem eventually got married (although he did have a hard time in shidduchim – as do many people, for that matter) to a wonderful baalas teshuva.
It doesn’t exactly answer your question, but it could give you chizuk.
And maybe that would be a good idea for you – to date baalei teshuvas? There are certainly many wonderful baalei teshuvas around.February 26, 2017 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1220270
A guy who is very concerned with weight should not marry such a girl.February 26, 2017 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1220271
Let’s say a girl used to be very heavy then lost all her weight, should a guy who is concerned with weight not go out with her because she used to be overweight?
Maybe. You can’t know maybe she’ll gain it right back. So too some people feel that once someone (especially a girl) goes “out to the world” you can never know if they’re really back (or what they did or what caused it). That’s the hesitation…February 26, 2017 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1220273
Bochor 2.0: See my last comment above; it was posted late.February 26, 2017 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1220274
Syag, you did a wonderful job, excellent post.
Bochur, I really don’t have much to add only that HaShem, the only one to whom it matters, knows the inner recesses of your heart. ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??’ ???? ????, so people in your environs can never know your deepest chambers of your heart. How are they to know the level of Teshuvah you’ve undertaken. Continue in your new path, be “fest” about it, strive for new heights. Eventually the right one will come…February 27, 2017 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1220275
bmyer, I agree.February 27, 2017 12:04 am at 12:04 am #1220276
I understand your predicament but 23 is pretty early to “give in.” You’re not the only who is dating at that age and didn’t yet get a compatible mate…February 27, 2017 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1220277
bymer, I understand where he is coming from. I also am in a similar situation just different since it is for other reasons rather than having a past since I do not have a past of not being religious.February 27, 2017 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1220278
rebitzen- you’re saying he should “give in” ?February 27, 2017 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1220279
Sometimes skinny women gain weight because of stress and after having children.
Sometimes men too (sympathy weight during pregnancy, it’s an interesting thing; and then stress too)February 27, 2017 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1220280
bmyer, I am not saying that he should give in. I was saying he needs to understand the girls also.February 27, 2017 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1220281
Some people who lose weight find it again.
Some people who didn’t lose weight find more.
Some people lose weight and don’t see it again. If someone finds their weight, is there a chiyuv to return it?February 27, 2017 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1220282
Bochur, this is a complex issue. You do not mention if you grew up secular or frum. A girl who is a BT/CBT (I was once told that a baal teshuva comes from a secular home and a chozer b’teshuva is someone who grew up frum, went OTD and came back) might understand you more. If you come from a secular background she might be moire understanding of your family. On the other hand, many FFBs like the excitement about Judaism that they find lacking in some FFBs. You also do not say for how long you have been frum. If you are jsut starting ot might be better to hold off until you find a derech and settle in.February 27, 2017 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1220283
Health, I know of girls who can’t get a regular guy.February 27, 2017 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1220284
I come from a yeshiva family and learnt in a top mesivta I have been back in yeshiva for 3yrs, I really don’t believe people being hesitant about my past has anything to do with hashkafa or reason
also Joseph I would be fine with that,February 27, 2017 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1220285
Bochur you are a hundred percent right in that the system is such that it doesn’t focus enough on the actual person but on where they are from and what yeshiva they are from.
And to everyone who thinks people should be judged by their past are you saying even if you know they have done a full and complete turn around?February 27, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1220287
And to everyone who thinks people should be judged by their past are you saying even if you know they have done a full and complete turn around?
No. But how do you know?February 27, 2017 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1220288
Bochor 2.0, a couple of posters here suggested going out with baalas teshuvas. What do you think of that idea?February 27, 2017 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1220289
Joseph in essence I would not have a problem, but a girl who did not grow up frum usually just wouldn’t fit with a guy like me who grew in town in a yeshiva communityFebruary 27, 2017 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1220290
bmyer someone who grew up yeshivish knowing what it all entailed went otd then on their own accord returned full fledged and has been learning for 3yrs you know as much (if not more) as a guy who has never left yeshiva, no one can ever be certain about anyone.February 27, 2017 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1220291
Bochur 2.0: People with “a past” are often more qualified for marriage than the rest. So don’t settle for “a girl who’s father won’t look at you”. Look for someone who can appreciate you for who are, and who you’ve become.February 27, 2017 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1220292
Misteryudi I could not agree more very well putFebruary 27, 2017 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1220293
“no one can ever be certain about anyone”
True. So you should just not date…February 27, 2017 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1220294
bmyer I see you are a very intelligent individual but I was responding to your question of “No. But how do you know?” and my answer is that your are right but with such individuals you know as much as the next guy and your concern should not be any bigger with someone like this than with someone with no past.February 27, 2017 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1220295
Bochur -“Health do you think that’s the way it should be? That a girl should have to lower her standards because of something she did in 10th grade? Even though now as she is would be deserving of the best”
The lowering of standards are not reality. People speak bad about e/o, boys and girls. That’s what I mean – lowering the level of people she should go out with!February 27, 2017 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1220296
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “level” but sounds like you agree that they need not give in on the things they hold are important.February 27, 2017 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1220297
Shopping – “Health, I know of girls who can’t get a regular guy.”
So why can’t they lower their standards?
I’ve been around awhile, & from my perspective, I know a lot of marriages, some who had the top reputations, but the woman had to divorce him. OTOH, there are a lot of guys, who were just plain, but they make great husbands!February 27, 2017 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1220298
bochur, but your not a typical yeshivish boy since you went off and experienced stuff others have not.February 27, 2017 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1220299
“your concern should not be any bigger with someone like this than with someone with no past.”
Every yid has a chezkas kashrus but if they do something to hinder that you have check MUCH more carefully into them…
To clarify i’m not saying to go into any shidduch blindly (proper hishtadlus is necessary) but when someone goes otd you have to be MUCH more careful…February 27, 2017 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1220300
bmyer, I agree 100% never know why the person went off and what they will be up to next.February 27, 2017 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1220301
Meaning they had to say goodbye to not getting a guy who didn’t come with “issues”February 27, 2017 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1220302
people are you listening to your selves?? we are talking about someone who made the conscious decision to return in full to a life of torah and mitzvos!! yes rebshidduch he experienced things which makes me all the more confident that his emunah and yiras shmayim is stronger then ever since he came from unprecedented depths and fought nisyanos my generation and mainstream bochurim can not imagine!!
Hats off to any bochur like 2.0
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