October 5, 2010 4:28 am at 4:28 am #592526
I recently started in shidduchim and I was curious to hear from girls what is important to them and what they really look for in a guy.October 5, 2010 5:32 am at 5:32 am #700794OfcourseMember
If they’re mature: Midos, reputation, potential for Parnassah, and common level of frumkeit and goals, before other things.
If they’re immature: Looks, money, story-book romance, and impressing friends, relatives, neighbors and their principals, and the important stuff comes after those.October 5, 2010 5:46 am at 5:46 am #700795kapustaParticipant
Middos, Middos, Middos. Someone who talks and looks and acts like a Jew should. Last but not least, someone who is machshiv Torah. (But if the rest fits, then he will likely be machshiv Torah anyway)October 5, 2010 6:31 am at 6:31 am #700796ckbshlMember
ofcourse- Do you really believe the difference of what girls look for is based on maturity? Being misguided I would assume is a middos issue. A person may seek kavod, or gaiva through their choice of spouses, yet I would presume this to be unrelated to maturity…
Unless of course u think the perfection of ones middos is also a maturity issue-?October 5, 2010 10:03 am at 10:03 am #700797
ckbshl: I see what she’s saying about maturity – there’s definitely an element of truth there. An immature girl will not have worked on her middos. While a mature girl may not be perfect, she generally has a strong awareness of priorities and has worked on herself. Most girls BH are mature by the time they enter shidduchim.
As for me… I look for middos, especially yiras Hashem, responsibility, love of work, a certain amount of simchas hachayim (basically, so we can have a happy home), and getting along with people.
In real life, I just look at yiras shamayim and how he will treat me. That sounds really selfish, but that’s the truth.October 5, 2010 11:28 am at 11:28 am #700798L613Member
If you recently started shidduchim, here’s a bit of advice. Make sure you LISTEN when she talks. Like really LISTEN. This is super important. Don’t talk all about yourself the whole time. Ask her questions about herself. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t talk about yourself, but don’t dominate the conversation.
On a different note, what does a guy usually look for in a girl??October 5, 2010 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #700799
Above all – be a man. Be decisive. Have a plan. Be confident. Always ask what your spouse’s feeling are, and seriously take them into account – but be the one to make a call, and run with it. On dates – and in life. Don’t be a wimp. Give direction. Don’t ask where she wants to go. Plan out a date. Know where everything is. Have a plan B. And if something goes wrong, don’t flip out or be embarrassed. Compensate. Move forward. Be prepared – take care of her.
Be a man. A kind, sensitive, perceptive – man. Es Biti Nasati L’Ish HaZeh…October 5, 2010 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #700800
Kapusta – Maybe we went to the same Shadchan…. He said that the top 3 things on your list should be Middos, Middos & Middos.
I dont think vanity has to do with maturity, I have a lot of friends who are “older singles” who are extremely mature they are just a little…. vain.
As for me: (1,2 & 3 Middos 😉 ) Someone who is sincere about their Frumkeit. Someone who is positive, up-beat (sense of humor never killed anyone) Woldly, has short term & long term goals.October 5, 2010 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #700801
….va’yisnaeha…????????October 5, 2010 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #700802pet peeveMember
moq: i love your posts, and this one is no exception. you just about summed it up……October 5, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #700803
For just 2 minutes, think about what you want out of YOURSELF. Marraige is all about what you can give, not get.
What are you bringing to the table? Once you know who you are and what your goals are, you can find a partner who shares that vision. The other things (looks, yichus, parents wealth, ect) are fringe details. Nice perks,but details all the same.
By the way, have you given any thought as to what YOU will do to earn the $ it takes to run a home and family? You need not necessarily be working now, but you should have a plan to give you $500-600 per week within the next 2 years.
Don’t wait till you’re tapped out and in debt. Plan now!October 5, 2010 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #700804
Did you really mean to write ‘per week’? Don’t you mean per day?October 5, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #700805
No, $600 per day is what Yoish THINKS his future shver makes each day (and that’s interest and dividends alone.. forget about what his take is on the business end of things 🙂
Reality will set in once he hits the job market. No or little experience, and $600 is being optimistic. But its a startOctober 5, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #700806blinkyParticipant
Middos is first on my list.
having a good rav that he follows, and respect for jewish values, and flexibility are among others….October 5, 2010 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #700807
Funny how you know what Yoish thinks. How do you know he doesn’t already work, he never said he was learning? You don’t even know his age, maybe he is 24 or 25 and been working a few years? Maybe he makes $500 a day?
EDITEDOctober 5, 2010 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #700808
$500 a day is about 180k; drop taxes and drop taxes and you’ve got 140k, which is about what it takes to support a healthy sized family in the tristate area without tuition breaks and make normal chasunos. Certainly not the high life.
Though it’s pretty nice to get from the shver, I’ll admit.
Your sentiments are kind. And potentially correct –
Same applies for girls. The Ikar HaIkarim, is not even brains or haskafah – or looks or middos (though it’s a close second) – is to be a girl. Be a woman. And not a man. Feminity and masculinity are what a marriage is. It’s what makes a marriage more then best friends – which is great, and should be there are well, but doesn’t fulfill what a marriage is suppose to be.
Everything else makes it better. But the ikar is to be a girl – respectful, trusting, – looking for a guide and protector – healthy feminity – capable of allowing yourself to be taken care of. Healthy feminity encourages healthy masculinity and there becomes a healthy cycle which bounds the two people together, and fills a woman with a feeling of safety and care – and man with confidence & strength, and that is the bracha of marriage.That is what it is.
Of course, you will need to find a gentlemen you respect & trust, and want to follow; the date is a test drive – let him lead. If he leads you into a ditch, or doesn’t know where to go , and cries and panics and ask you what to do – be helpful, be kind , figure things out as he was your younger brother and promptly dump him- because, you know, there just no chemistry but he’s good for Raizy…
If he mess up the directions, says no sweat & laughs, and pulls into a nice looking park, and confidently leads a pleasant improvised date & makes an event out of the pond – even if you never made it to the cafe – he’s got the potential to be a keeper.
Yeshiva Guys are often intimidated by girls – who know far more about the world then they do, and have often been successfully employed for years – need to confident enough in their identity as Talmid Chacham to compensate for that lack of knowledge. Of course, if they are a shlepper who’s done nothing for the last few years – well, how can she respect him- ? That’s what we call no chemistry in french.October 5, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #700809
Moq – Whew! I’m glad you said it and not me. I think I would’ve been yelled at for being shallow and high maintenance.October 5, 2010 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #700810midwest-yiddMember
My first-ever Coffeehouse posting — here goes… I’ve enjoyed reading all the messages on this “thread”, and respectfully add the following thought.
I agree that, regardless of gender, middos should be near (if not AT) the top of your list. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to determine whether someone’s a ba’al/ba’alas middos after one or two dates. Nowadays, in the “shidduch system”, decisions are expected to be made very quickly. As a result, a guy & girl often can’t spend enough time together to seriously evaluate the things that matter. Between the constant forced separation of genders, and the mindset — which many people have — that “if in doubt, don’t go out again”, Frum realationships are often rushed.
When happens when things get rushed? Shallow factors — which CAN be perceived quickly — take control. How tall is she? What’s his salary? Does he wear white or colored shirts? Does her mom stack Shabbos plates at the table or in the kitchen?
The Frum dating system is INFINITELY better then the secular one, in which I grew up. But it’s not perfect. And this is one area in which it can, and should, improve! Please, slow things down. Let a guy & girl get to know each other — without the shadchan asking “Nu?”, after a couple of dates… If you’re dating, take time to get to know the person. He/she may not “sweep you off your feet” after several hours but, as a connection builds thru intellectual & spiritual compatibility, they may seem more attractive to you!
Once the dating process slows down a bit, important things — like middos — will matter more!October 5, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #700811blinkyParticipant
midwest-yidd- Welcome to the “club”October 5, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #700812
Midwest-Yidd – I agree with you and disagree with you.
Lets start with the positive 🙂
I think that the “shidduch system” needs a MAJOR overhaul. I dont want to elaborate because this is not what this thread is about, and I think that our current system is extremely flawed.
For the disagreement. I think you can definitely tell on a first date if someone has rotten middos. If someone stinks you can smell them a mile a way. Yes, sometimes they manage to behave themselves for a date or two but if they have never worked on themselves their ruse wont last long.October 5, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #700814
Funny how you know what Yoish thinks. How do you know he doesn’t already work, he never said he was learning? You don’t even know his age, maybe he is 24 or 25 and been working a few years? Maybe he makes $500 a day?
How indeed do I know? Ans: I don’t, but if he were what YOU think he might be, would he be asking for shidduch advice from the CR?
No, I think he’s a fresh off the plane, back from EY, BMG best bocher. But lets wait till Yoish weighs in himself.
And if past posts are any indication, so far no one has responded to my inquiry (and I’ve made several posts to that effect) as to wether or not working (or a plan to) is on the table, open for discussion. Not one.
So you tell me, do you think I’m off base by my guess?October 5, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #700815OfcourseMember
Im a little wary about sincerity here, because the words Yoish Im Telling you are more uttered by females than males. When was the last time you heard a guy say it?October 5, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #700816oomisParticipant
She wants a mensch who is loving and thoughtful, makes a parnassah that is realistically going to be able to support a growing family; someone who is close with his own family AND hers, who knows how to laugh at himself, and roll with the punches when things go wrong, as they inevitably must; who will man up and not avoid responsibility to his wife and children (with the excuse that he is late for a shiur), and who will recognize and appreciate the very important tafkid that his wife has in making a Yiddishe home for him, and treat her accordingly.
Now ask me what HE wants.October 5, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #700817
I am a shtark working boy I just dont have a real clue about girls. I am not in yeshivah but am not anti and would be open to learn a year or so. Im not at all unrealistic and do work hard to make money, I dont expect my shver to support me although I do hope he will help out at least the first few years and continue to be generous down the line. But no Im not looking for a father in law or girl to support me.
To member Ofcourse
I used that name because I find it funny when I hear girls (usually more chassidish) say it. Maybe it wasnt the best id choice.October 5, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #700818
Yoish – I actually thought your name was hilarious. Every time I read it I do so with a chassidish accent.
Good Job.October 5, 2010 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #700819
Exactly, thats how its supposed to be read heavy female chassidish accent, it really makes me laugh! 🙂October 5, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #700820
A little nasal too…October 5, 2010 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #700821NEEDIDEASMember
Middos Must override money…
You can always go to college to make more money… You cant buy middos… Its something that is in a person that you spend a lifetime perfecting… Therefore although jokes about middos, money, and looks are sadly closer to the truth it is important to see truth and have a clear understatnding about right and wrong al pe das torah… The boy can go to school… The girl can go to school… The goal is to build a BNB with proper siatha dishmayah may we all be zoche to make it happen….
So does anyone think i am wrong?October 5, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #700822
needideas- How can you be wrong? What you are saying is common sense. Unfortunately sense isnt so common.October 5, 2010 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #700823midwest-yiddMember
Blinky – thanks! Occasionally I wonder whether I should seek a refund on my membership fee. 🙂October 5, 2010 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #700824
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One of my favorite Meiri’s (Avos, I think).October 5, 2010 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #700826
That just means that it shouldn’t be the sole reason of marrying the person. Nobody (or almost nobody, only the rarest yechidim) will marry ONLY for looks or money. Looks and money are maalos so why shouldn’t somebody try to get that if they can?October 5, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #700827sof davar hakol nishmaMember
if they’re mature, and have their head on tehir shoulders, they are looking for yarei shamayim, Baal middos/derech eretz whose heart is in Torah.
If not, they want a good looking boy with specific personality traits…October 5, 2010 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #700828
Thank you for clarifing that. If all goes as planned, in 2-5 years from now, bochurim will not need to make excuses for choosing to work (nor will girls need to make excuses for choosing them)
And to all those who are making fun of the Yoish rallying call … THATS SOP in 11219, so please back off!
Now, Yoish, tell me.. are you looking for tzve mohl tze’gedect or is a shtern tichel what you had in mind? 🙂October 5, 2010 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #700829
– first of all, I agree. Money & Looks are the icing on the cake. But if the cake is poison…and icing you can find later. But yes, I definetely believe they are important. And just icing with no cake causes a bad stomach ache, and makes you get replused by icing and long for cake. So I’d prefer cake with no icing, then icing with no cake. Marion Antonette would have been proud.
But IF – and big IF – because you can be blinded by the beauty & the benjamins and not see that a serpent lurks within the Gucci and chicken feet in the prada heels.
In other words,I don’t think anyone says “yeah, I want cash & a supermodel” – but I think guys convince themselves they are taking into account internals because there brains stop working at the sight of externals. Gotta keep the brains in the drivers seat.
I do think people give them too much weight, and many focus too much on externals and marry someone whom they should not have married.
The OU did a survey on frum marriage – 26% of people said they weren’t sure if they would have married there spouse, given the chance to do it again. %15 (part of the 26%) said they would not have married there spouse.
Sad reality – they messed up. They did something wrong. They are suffering – and many , could have done it otherwise. Mind you, 15% is one out of seven.
I once heard a shiur from a fine talmid chacham about shidduch – “Bashert needs to leave your head before shidduchim – you can marry the wrong person. You will burn in the world and in the next for doing so – so get your head screwed on straight”.October 5, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #700830
Moq, in all seriousness, every time you quote something it’s a crackup. Do you do it on purpose?October 5, 2010 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #700831mw13Participant
Huh? %15 of people regretting their choice of life partner cracks you up?October 5, 2010 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #700832
2 more points came to mind that were a huge help in my dating days (I was working at the time)
1 – daven in a primary shul consistantly. Its ok to catch an occasional mincha / maariv in a miyan factory, but shacris should be in a place that you can use as a reference. Ditto for Shabbos. Pick a place and put down roots. Need not be the place you davened at as a child, but pick one that works for your persona as you are now and see yourself (and want to be seen as) for the next few years. And make sure the rov / gabboim know you by name, not just “the guy who sits in the 3rd row near the seforim shank”
2 – have a daily shiur, either with a chavrusa or at a public shiur, but make sure its visible. For the next few years, you need to be seen as someone very stable, because your critics (the ones that question your choice to go to work) will be easily silenced when they see you are making a name for yourself.
3 – dress code. That’s your call, just make sure you stay consistant with the image you want to be percieved as. In my kids case, that would mean a white shirt / black pants, wether they are going to college at night or seder in the morning. Whatever you do, don’t have a dual image. Nothing sinks a person faster than that.October 5, 2010 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #700833
chicken feet in the prada heels.
Moq – I think you meant calfs hooves in Prada, but I still love your writing style!October 5, 2010 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #700834
Its Marie Antoinette. Also all this cake and icing talk is making me hungry, thanks.
On a more serious note, I dont know how accurate that OU statistic is. I dont know how official and thorough it was plus I dont know which group was polled and theres always a margin of error.
Besides that, there are many unhappy people that would be happy with a bit of counseling. Almost everyone marries who they should (I purposely didnt say Bashert because you dont like the word) if they arent happy its because one or both of them are making some basic bein adam lchaveiro mistakes. These things can usually be fixed with short term therapy or marriage counseling. Most people dont want to or dont realize they have to work on their marriages so of course some people will be unhappy!October 6, 2010 12:01 am at 12:01 am #700835
Personally I think this looks plus money issue should be in the what are BOYS looking for thread. From all the girls I know in shidduchim (a lot) not one of them says they want a good looking guy, and a couple of them prefer a guy that is not too good looking because yes, most good looking guys know it and are full of themselves.October 6, 2010 12:12 am at 12:12 am #700836lkwdfellowMember
Most girls – even the ones not looking for full-time learners – are looking for a boy who has a passion for learning, Yiddishkeit, etc. They want to hear a boy is excited about his ruchnios, attends minyanim, shiurim, etc. When a boy goes out & brags about his adventures, vacations, movies, TV shows, etc. – chances are he’ll be getting a “no” pretty fast….October 6, 2010 12:29 am at 12:29 am #700837
lkwdfellow – on the money!
Then again unless thats what she’s looking for…October 6, 2010 12:31 am at 12:31 am #700838simchafanMember
THe most important thing for me is someone who has good middos. Obviously no one wants a mean husband but middos are so important to me. And girls (not all but many) notice the little things on the date. Saying thank you to someone who held the door open for example shows someone’s middos.
Also another thing is being genuine and real. Having a rav/rebbe he is close to. Knowing where he is going in life. Every girl will have their own list and things of importance.October 6, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #700839
A little nervous about admitting this publicly, but…
I look specifically for a realistic form of financial support. I need the peace of mind to know I can stay home with my babies if I want to, and not worry about food on the table. Also, I don’t want to depend on charity from ANYONE – not my parents, not the gov’t, not a yeshiva (unless he’s working for them), not his parents. It just really bothers me to be a taker.
Am I the only one? I still have to figure out how to say this to shadchanim.October 6, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #700840
PS that is not the only thing, but comes after Yiras Shamayim and how he’ll treat me.October 6, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #700841
pascha – Why should you be embarrassed to say that? You want a guy who has a stable job, its called reality. You cant live life on a hope and a prayer (altho it’d be nice if we all could)
I say I am looking for a professional. Nothing in life is guaranteed and a “professional” can lose his job just as fast as the next guy but at least he has plans for himself.October 6, 2010 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #700842
One shadchan, a family friend, tried to convince me that I shouldn’t consider a guy not in learning… that’s why I’m nervous of saying that.October 6, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #700843
Thank you for so clearly portraying why we have a shidduch “crisis”.
You do what is good for you, not what is perceived as right by society.October 6, 2010 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #700844
People will tell you lots of things. Not everyones advice must be taken. Listen, you have to do what’s best for you. You have to know yourself and what you really want. Live your life, not the life everyone tells you that you should be living.why not look for a guy who has a degree who is serious about learning, that way you get everything you want (granted he may not be as externally “yeshivish” as a full learne)?
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